PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Oct 25, 2008 23:43:25 GMT
If only..... (not) But then I knew better M325 now to hand.............So 5th Oct is P44 D137 and M325Good - now is there any chance of you enlightening the rest of us who do not have said document to hand? Cheers
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Oct 2, 2008 13:15:32 GMT
So presumably this will mean stepping back in order to achieve anything like a reasonable frequency?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Oct 1, 2008 22:12:39 GMT
I wish they did something similar at Leic Sq! I once found myself stuck still on the escalator with nowhere to go - quite frightening. It should always be the case that if blocking back of customers reaches the escalators, gates are opened and ticket checking is temporarily suspended until the situation has passed. Like most things, it requires staff to be aware of the situation and to take the initiative. So does this work in practice? surely most people are on Oyster now and will want to touch out so they don't get overcharged?
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PGtrips
Ahh... don't you just love PG?
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Post by PGtrips on Sept 30, 2008 13:29:41 GMT
Phase 2 of the works are due to incorporate completion of signalling modifications required to allow signalled moves from Network Rail to the District Line, with control of the NR points via the Upminster IECC. Control of the LUL points via a Ground Control Panel. So how will this work in practice? I thought that quite a fundamental requirement for a crossover is that both ends are either normal or reversed? Surely having each end controlled from a different signal installation might be dangerous because unless both points are moved simultaneously, you lose flank protection on both straight routes? Can someone please explain how this is going to work in practice?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Sept 27, 2008 12:54:47 GMT
Sandite equipment is operated by a switch on the drivers console, the fitter is on-board to help if there is a failure and we are not to leave Neasden depot with a fitter on-board. I'm on the RAT all over Xmas so I hope there are no flats caused by any "newbie" drivers which has happened in the past. ;-) So does this additional wiring have to be fitted each time a service unit is adapted to work with the RAT, or do all the fleet have it fitted, or does it use the de-icer control circuit? Is the knack of driving the RAT different to a standard A stock? Does anyone know what the diagrams are for the RAT and how far south does it get?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Sept 26, 2008 14:18:56 GMT
Does it require a separate operative to work the Sandite equipment, or can this be done by the driver?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Aug 11, 2008 12:58:21 GMT
Sorry to disappoint you chaps, but there are numerous draw up signals across the NR railway. They are performing the same function of allowing trains to draw up to a signal when the full overlap is unavailable and the signal in rear has a delayed yellow clearance to ensure the train is at or nearly at a stand. No specific advice is given for these signals as the aspect sequence is the normal yellow to red but with a reduced overlap available. A good example of this is both up and down fast lines at Watford Junction the platforms are protected by normal homes at full braking distance to the platform starters, but also an additional inner home is provided approx 100 yds on the approach to the platform with the overlap 1/3 into the platform. A train standing in the platform at the starter will normally be clear of the IBJ and the normal home signal will clear when a train is nearly at a stand allowing it to run up to the inner home. This can result in the interesting sight of a train in the platform one at the inner home some 250yds from the one in the platform and a third coming up to the normal home. The additional home is not the norm and normally the normal signalling is at full braking distances wit the draw up or warning applied with the delayed aspect. The Bakerloo has one on the up DC at Harlesden with WS24 capable of a delayed yellow when the signal at Willesden (WS22) has ony a reduced overlap available, but it rarely gets used. Presumably, this is a more elegant solution to permissive block? I know that PB is largely confined to freight only lines, but certainly in the mid 90s when I was last there, Stockport station operated permissive block on passenger lines. A second train was admitted to the platform through a red aspect and two white diagonal calling on lights and it was entirely up to the driver to regulate stopping short of the train already in the platform. I know this arrangement exists in many termini where a platform may be half full, or for allowing a loco onto stock already standing, but I haven't seen it anywhere else on running lines, and used for almost every train in the peaks. In respect of the signal in question at East Putney, surely if it is that badly sighted/confusing/the wrong side of the track/with repeater too far in advance then it should be reported and modified. As I understood it, both NR and LU management are desperate to reduce potential SPADS - or is that too simplisitc a view?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Jun 20, 2008 13:39:21 GMT
Indeed, I fail to see what is wrong with having a manual gate, where an assistant can supervise traffic in and out as required. Could someone please clarify. Is it permissable for a gate line to be unsupervised. I was in London at the weekend with 3 items of luggage, including a large wheeled case. At Kings Cross, I used the new wide gate which I thought was excellent. However, at my destination station (much smaller) there was no wide gate, only a gate that needed to be released by staff. I touched out and must have stood there for a good 5 minutes before a member of staff eventually let me through. There wasn't even a bell to summon assistance. Surely this is not very satisfactory in the event of an emergency, qute apart from being very poor customer service?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on May 21, 2008 13:37:50 GMT
What a fascinating photo - I didn't realise that GT3 was used on the GC road.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on May 16, 2008 14:37:10 GMT
I have to say that this is where I was aiming - there was nothing in the description that says the presonnel involved should be next to a traditional signal and as such, the "safe area" is a given distance from the train in front dependent on the conditions (speed/visibility) rather than pre-determined limits. I think you might have misread this - it says:- "The section can start and end anywhere where there are places of safety for the start point supervisor and exit point supervisor to stand." i.e. the 'safe area' is about Personal Track Safety for the officials running the P-P working. Presumably in practical terms the start of P-P working would be arranged to be by the last operable signal and therefore the space interval behind and protecting the entering train would be achieved with the normal signalling system. Presumably also at the end of P-P working, all futher signals must be obeyed. What therefore are the rules regarding the superviser at the far end of the section authorising the next train through - i.e. how long must they wait/how far must the preceeding train have left the P-P working before they can authorise the next train through?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Feb 14, 2008 17:20:37 GMT
I went to the LT museum in Covent garden the other day with a friends daughter (and despite her initial protests, she thoroughly enjoyed herself!) - point is, all the tube simulators are now based on the 95/96ts CTBC; now whilst it obviously wasn't completely realistic, I think it gave enough of an example..............and FWIW, I don't think I'd fancy having to use that style for a full shift. Perhaps I've got too used to the simple D stock version?.......... I went there today with the kids it being half term for them and all. I don't think the CTBC on the Jubilee cab is very realistic at all in that it seems to be really heavy duty for museum abuse and also it has no physical 'clicks' for each position apart from the centre 'off' position. However, this appears to have got misaligned and is at about brake notch 2 so to coast you have to hold the handle in splendid isolation in mid air. So I hope the real ones are a lot better than that. On a more positive note, the BVE of the Jubilee is absolutely SUPERB and I can't wait for it to be released for me to try on the comfort of my own PC (which has no CTBC at all ;D ;D ;D)....but that should probably be a discussion for another thread on another board, so I'll shut up at this point...
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Feb 22, 2008 21:50:39 GMT
Is the meeting of VIPs by station staff a common occurance then? Without breaching anybody's personal security, in general terms, what kind of person would constitute a VIP for these purposes and what is the purpose of specific staff meeting them?
I'm not trying to pry here, but I would have thought that if someone was THAT important, or that much of a security concern, then there might be easier ways to transport them than on the underground
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Feb 24, 2008 0:46:41 GMT
avoiding the complicated arrangements that were implemented at Tottenham Court Road. Which were?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Feb 24, 2008 0:31:43 GMT
Presumably, Highgate was never used as such for 9 cars as it did not open until after the outbreak of war and the cessation of 9 car operation? Was there ever any 9 car operation to Archway, my understanding is that 9 car operation was limited to Edgware - Kennington.
Now we really are off topic for the Bakerloo line.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Feb 23, 2008 23:56:39 GMT
I suspect, future proofing policy at that time - Highgate on the otherwise 7 car Northern, dating from practically the same period, was also built for 8 cars. I would imagine the costs of doing this at construction are negligible as compared with having to extend platforms later, with all the attendant disruption to services, etc.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Jan 30, 2008 14:37:50 GMT
Weren't the trailers not very old compared to the 1938ts? 9-car trains were going to be used on the Northern Line so extra trailers and DMs were delivered as a result. When the 9-car scheme was dumped there were plenty of Driving Motors left, so they put a converted standard stock trailer between them. The 1949 order also helped to utilise the left over cars that couldn't be integrated into units. I thought that actually the converse of this was the case. The 9 car trains were designed to work as block formations, without the ability to uncouple to something shorter in the off peaks, but provision was made for them to be uncoupled into 7 and 2 car portions in the event of an emergency. As I understand it, the 49TS UNDMs were used in a rather complex series of reformations to release one standard DM from a 3 car unit, which was then used with cars from the 9 car trains to form further 3 car units formed DM - T - UNDM. In any case, the 9 car sets were reduced to 7 car block trains on the outbreak of war and so there were a number of stored cars that were accounted for by the 1949 scheme. According to The 1938 Tube Stock, the "58 trailers" were included in the original plans for the 38TS as ordered in March 1937. Basically, LT had 58 spare Standard stock trailers, and decided to use them in the new 38TS trains rather than scrap them. Not unreasonable, as the cost of an additional 58 new trailers would have been some £150,000. Wasn't this to do with the fact that the ultimate plan on the Central was to go for 8 car trains with four motor cars, implying a 50/50 mix of motors and trailers? This resulted in a number of control trailers being surplus as such and converted to trailer cars as well as the 58 spare 1927 trailers incorporated in the 38TS programme.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Jan 30, 2008 23:31:41 GMT
Perhaps I should enlighten people with what these lines were like 25 years ago.
I went to school on the GOBLIN for five years when it was being worked by variously 116s, 127s and 104s. At the same time the North Woolwich - Camden Rd service was working with very tired 105s. The main NLL was still going to Broad St and was just changing over from 501s to two car only 416/2 2EPBs. All these units were fantastic for the enthusiast, but presented a very poor image to the general passenger.
The east end of the NLL was absolutely DEAD outside of peak hours (east of Highbury) and the North Woolwich - Camden Rd service was very quiet as well. The NLL ran every 20 minutes at that time, with some additional peak hour Watford - Broad St trains both via Primrose Hill and one routed via Gospel Oak.
Stratford has grown massively in importance with the coming of the DLR and Jubilee and to an extent, the lines are now a victim of their own success.
You can fit many more people in a 313 than in a 2EPB. The 150s on the GOBLIN, although they sometimes have their moments, are much more reliable than the previous DMUs. The 127s and 104s quite often ran round as power quadruples for contingency reasons because in winter, it was touch and go whether the batteries on more than one car would maintain their charge, and in summer the radiator water needed to be topped up (by BR standard issue metal watering can) every trip at Gospel Oak if there was any chance of the set making the entire rounder to Barking and back without dying because of overheating. In those days also, as a legacy of the service going to Kentish Town, the crews were mainly St Pancras based and the official route after signing on (so as not to have to pay LT) was walk to Euston, DC lines to Willesden Jct, NLL to Gospel Oak so as can be imagined, there were often massive problems with crew reliefs because of this stupid piece of internal accounting policy.
So things are not perfect, but they are a whole lot better than 25 years ago and they will get better.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Feb 24, 2008 20:42:16 GMT
Yes...... the Cenral Line song does it so much better without the need to be gratuitously rude.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Feb 22, 2008 21:19:07 GMT
I think that's supposed to be the idea! Superbly cheesy lyrics - love it!
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PGtrips
Ahh... don't you just love PG?
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Post by PGtrips on Jan 30, 2008 22:38:52 GMT
Just a thought - was that actually the stalled train, or was it perhaps one that had been worked up behind to facilitate detraining?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Jan 13, 2008 21:33:32 GMT
The reason why the EP is cut out if an assisting C stock is needed (making a 12 car train) is that there is a risk of the MCB tripping, due to the additional cars all now taking the electrical feed from the same cab. So if I understand this correctly, it makes no difference to braking performance how many cars are coupled, but if an excessive number are coupled, the additional power required to operate the EP brake circuits will cause a circuit breaker to trip. Is that right? On that basis, would 8 cars be within the permitted current consumption for these circuits, but anything longer require the EP to be cut out?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Jan 11, 2008 14:40:02 GMT
I do also know of a 24 car A Stock once-upon-a-time! So how did that come about then?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Jan 11, 2008 14:37:44 GMT
The EP brake is the normal service brake and uses retarders & rheostatic energy (the motors) as part of the service brake - these retarders & rheostatic characteristics are set up specifically for a set number of factors and if they're varied wildly [by using a different number of cars] the braking effect will be noticeably affected. Please would you explain why this is the case a bit further? To the uninitiated, if you couple a further 2 cars onto an exisiting 6 car C stock, yes the train is now 2 cars longer and heavier, but is there not now 2 cars more braking kit available to stop it? So, given the foregoing, what is it that means that braking performance of an 8 car is different to a 6 car (or even a 4 car)?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Jan 11, 2008 0:24:57 GMT
Apologies if any of this has been asked before.
There has been discussion in previous threads about the 72TS train on the Bakerloo formed with 2 UNDMs. What modifications were required, if any, to the UNDM in the 4 car unit to achieve this?
Also, as the 4 car 72TS units could couple either end onto a 3 car unit, presumably that makes the UNDM end of a 3 car as equally reversible as a 4 car? Therefore would it be possible to couple two 3 car units back to back and has this ever actually been done for any reason?
Similarly, has an 8 car 72 TS ever run with two 4 car units?
Finally, with regard to the C Stock, I understand that 8 car operation was designed in for implementation sometime in the future. But has a C stock ever run as either 4 or 8 cars for any reason?
I appreciate that if any of this did happen, it would almost certainly not be in passenger service due to platform length issues, but I wonder if any of the above has ever occurred with empty stock moves, etc.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Mar 18, 2008 15:30:49 GMT
That might have been it ADW... they don't trust District drivers with things like approaching the homes at Ealing and Wimbledon without spadding them, then carrying on to cause some kind of crazy incident! Although of course we know they love to suspend the Uxbridge branch, things like because of a signal failure at Cockfosters, there is no service to Rayners Lane :S :S That might be a little unfair as there are precedents for WDMs going awry. RAIB investigated a WDM near High St in 2006 - report at www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2007/report192007.cfm. In that incident, because of misunderstanding allied with poor communication, a WDM continued past its authorised limit. There are 14 recommendations for action in that report, along with 3 actions LUL had taken by the time the investigation was concluded. Were I the controller in charge of operations on the day in question, I think I would err on the cautious side in light of that report.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Mar 8, 2008 11:34:44 GMT
Thanks, SK, that thread is very illuminating. It does beg questions about ongoing maintenance of flange greasers. This is clearly not a new issue. There will be climatic change, etc. You would have thought with wheelsets at 10K a pair and evidence of derailments being caused by lack of lubrication, that it would be given a higher priority. As a matter of interest, if a load of trains have to be taken out of service with defective wheelsets due to either flats or excessive wear, and this can be proved to a location, are there penalty clauses in anyone's contract to cover this situation. I.e. if Metronet doesn't fix the greasers and a load of District stock is then off the road, are there any avenues of litigation/compensation available - or as they are now completely skint is this a non-starter?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Mar 7, 2008 13:51:28 GMT
Have Metronet started using the wrong grease again? Or have they simply run out? So are there a lot of flange greasers on LU in general terms, then? I know there have been issues on NR in recent times over flange lubrication - especially with the oh so lovely 142/3/4s (try coming out of Bradford Interchange towards Leeds with one for some real fingers in ears excitement) and there was actually a derailment at Epsom a couple of years ago caused by wheel climb due to lack of lubrication. But I hadn't considered that this would be an issue on LU up until now - a poor oversight on my part given the amount of curvature on the system. On the District, what kind of lubricators are they and how often are they spaced and - crucuial question given the current spate of squealing - how often do they need to be refilled with grease? Any background info on this issue much appreciated.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Feb 19, 2008 0:38:24 GMT
Interesting. None of this is heading towards 'world class customer service'. The amount of confusion on South Kensington platform on Saturday had to be seen to be believed. Firstly, there were no live announcements, only pre recorded ones being played over and over. The most irritating of these said that because of engineering works, passengers should re plan their journeys before they traveled - one assumes that most people on a station platform are in the process of travelling (unless they are looking for unrefurbished D Stock a day too late ) Secondly, you could eventually extract the key information (take the HeX to Heathrow, any ticket with zones 1-6 on it is valid on HeX, take the next Circle to Paddington and change there, don't attempt the buses from Hammersmith - Acton Town except for local journeys) but this was buried in a load of other waffle and was not succinct and to the point. Surely at such a key location as South Kensington, there should be some live PA so that announcements for when Districts and Circles come in are appropriately differentiated. Also, if the DMIs can't be made to show West Ken or Olympia, wouldn't it be better to turn them off altogether or to get them to show 'Check front of train for destination'? As a neutral observer, it just seemed like an already complex situation was exacerbated further by conflicting and unfocused information.
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Feb 17, 2008 19:27:01 GMT
Just a few queries about the special working this weekend in connection with the engineering work west of Hammersmith.
Do Acton drivers, being on the 'wrong' side of the break, get a very quiet weekend off or do they have massive amounts of extra travel time built into their rosters to pick duties up at Earls Court?
Also, I noticed when on South Kensington westbound yesterday that although the DVA and train destination were OK with West Ken (and Olympia), the platform TD was for Ealing - no wonder the punters looked dazed and confused. Is it not possible to show a West Ken or Olympia description east of Earls Court? In terms of the service, would I be right in thinking that what should have gone to Ealing went to West Ken and what should have gone to Richmond went to Olympia, with the the Olympia - High Streets suspended entirely?
Also, at West Ken itself, I noticed that the trailing crossover at the west end is very tight with the end of the switches actually in the platform. Is this a tight venue to reverse at and how often do people normally get to do this move?
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PGtrips
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Post by PGtrips on Jan 30, 2008 22:50:30 GMT
But surely this is because the rot set in when every litter bin on the system (and at key National Rail stations also) was removed because of the terrorist threat of planting a bomb therin.
My local NR station now has the kind of 'bins' that do not have a body - i.e. there is just a loop to hold the top of a (transparent) bin bag - so they are open to scrutiny (lovely), but they are regularly emptied and are ALWAYS well filled and there is a massive improvement in the cleanliness of the trackbed. By contrast my nearest main interchange has no bins whatsoever and the trackbed is covered in litter. Whilst some people will litter regardless, many people will gladly use bins if they are provided.
When people are encouraged to perceive that a certain behaviour is acceptable, like littering or playing videos on their phones through the speadkers and not using headphones, that is when the rot sets in. But in the case of my local station, there are plenty of bins and most people use them, so I suspect people might think twice before littering - there is a 'critical mass' of the number of bin users so the rest fall into line.
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