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Post by theblackferret on Aug 18, 2014 22:19:06 GMT
There were 2 other examples that I know of where a booking office was at deep level, those being Tottenham Court Road and Elephant and Castle. Both with Northern line connections. Elephant was part of the original CSLR, so up to 1913 was interchanging with the Bakerloo there, before CSLR became part of UERL.
Tottenham Court Road interchanged with the Central Line, which was not part of UERL at all.
So looks like through ticketing wasn't possible at those two, either. Wonder if Tottenham Court Road underground office stayed open longer?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 18, 2014 20:50:17 GMT
These 2 Euston surface buildings were for the CSLR(City & South London) & CCEHR(Charing Cross, Euston & Hampstead) respectively. Both built in 1907 & closed in 1914.
The CCEHR building is still standing:
When they were functional, these 2 lines were separate companies and entities that had yet to be linked together to form the Northern Line.
So, it's unlikely through ticketing between, say, Stockwell & Chalk Farm was available until after 1913, when the CSLR was swallowed by the United Electric Railways of London(UERL), which had already acquired the District, Piccadilly & Bakerloo lines.
Hence the need for an interchange ticket office from 1907-13/14, and why it was underground & not in the foyer/forecourt of Euston LNWR station.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 18, 2014 20:28:56 GMT
I don't think there is any way of turning a train end for end at Penzance, or indeed anywhere west of Bristol. I suppose strictly speaking it is possible to do it a Norton Fitzwarren (west of Taunton) though it make some time as I'm not sure how long the spurs are on the triangle. Rather than debating National Rail services in the West Country, perhaps we could get back to the issue of "trust"? Point taken, but if two of our members can provide so much info about Cross Country, perhaps that suggests one company at least disseminates some of its' strategy to the public, whether or not they approve of it. There is an argument that this way there is less of an issue of trust about them.
Compared & contrasted to FGW, who did score amongst the worst in the trust aspect. Perhaps, even if it is an oblique way of reaching that conclusion, they give people the impression they don't know what they're doing because they don't disclose enough & aren't therefore well trusted?
I wonder if things were any different in the days of the Big Four? The GWR has been given a glowing reputation from history, but it was also intransigent to the point of obstinacy-remember the famous quote by a station master on it about why a market-day branch train couldn't be run at a convenient time to connect with the main line:-"Other railways may have different ways of doing things; The GWR does thing the GWR way."
So, is this issue of trust down to the now ever-pervasive media investigation and vigilance in everything, or are there genuine grounds to distrust?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 18, 2014 9:39:29 GMT
Cross Country also serve us in Plymouth.
Noticed they tend to provide about 65-70% seats facing in the direction of travel, as opposed to FGW's 50/50 split, at least in the pleb's carriages I have to use. Suggests somebody did some market research at one company. Surely that would be perspective. If 65-70% of seats are facing forward when you go to Birmingham, then only 30-35% are forward facing when going towards Penzance? As for the stops at Birmingham, I think it is because Birmingham is the hub of the XC network, and the reason for the generous dwell times there are mainly to do with pathing. If you have a train running from Penzance to Birmingham, and then off to Glasgow, if you timetable it with next to no allowance, then by the time you get to Glasgow, unless it is one of those days where nothing has happened anywhere on the network, you'll be massively late at Glasgow, and with a hefty bill. Hence the XC timetables are all padded, to allow for various incidents anywhere on the network. A bit like the excuses sometimes jokingly rolled out immediately after Eurostar started: "freight wagon derailed in Istanbul yard a week ago, 13:24 to Woking delayed by 23 minutes" such are the perils of long distance interconnected services Thanks for the info on New Street; as we are likely to be going Blackpool way later in the year, I'm glad I can get one in on the way there & back!
Back in May, we did a few days out by rail & caught Cross Country back to Plymouth from Exeter & Newton Abbot once each. I noticed both trains were marshalled in the same carriage order as on the way up ie A behind the engine, F or H at the rear.
So I reckon they do actually reverse them when they terminate, or they start from Edinburgh, Liverpool etc in the same carriage order & seating ratios as when they start from Penzance. Both carriages we sat in going home were in that ratio, but we didn't traipse through the train to check the others were the same, as we I had done on the way up on Cross Country.
The only problem I have had with Cross Country has been an occasional 4-carriage service in off-peak times. Not a regular occurrence, but they don't always anticipate correctly which parts of the route can get crowded, and make it up to 6. Part of the reason is that there are a lot of West Midland people who've retired down here over the last 30-odd years, compared to mainly Geordies, Scousers and Scots before that, so a lot more who want to occasionally be reminded of the delights of Brum/visit relatives.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 17, 2014 22:20:27 GMT
Cross Country also serve us in Plymouth.
Noticed they tend to provide about 65-70% seats facing in the direction of travel, as opposed to FGW's 50/50 split, at least in the pleb's carriages I have to use. Suggests somebody did some market research at one company.
CC's aisles are a little wider, hence why they do a mobile drinks/buffet person, rather than a counter. And, yes, for those interested that does include alcoholic beverages beyond the basic can of lager. Don't do a bad cappuccino, either.
On a purely personal level, they also invariably stop at Birmingham New Street, after around 2 & 3-quarter hours, where you change trains. The stop-over is always 15 minutes minimum, enough time to find the platform, carry suitcases to it, leave my wife & sprint back out for a cigarette, a good 40 mins or more sooner than I'd be able to do at Paddington, even if Charles Clarke's architecture isn't then present to be admired(side of the Great Western Hotel or front of the Tube Entrance).
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 17, 2014 22:01:41 GMT
I think the problem on names or numbers is, can you get a marketable name from the history and layout of a line?
Think back to when all the Tube lines were put under separate line management; they all came with an established name, identity, etc. Except for The Jubilee & I don't think Liz would have been enamoured with that one being renamed.
LOL has and will be taking over some that fit into that category & others that just don't at all. For a start, it hasn't always been Gospel Oak <==> Barking, only since 1981, and if they perpetrated Silver Link in a name, then they would have to get names for the others.
Suspect it will be number 5 and number 6 routes, and that's how they will be displayed in carriages.
The only other possibility would be to rename everything in terms of links, but I personally think that could be more awkward than ELL, WLL etc.
One last point-do you need a name to hang on to long-established services that people are using in good numbers? It was different when they reopened the Met Widened Lines in 1987, because those cross-London services hadn't been operative for 70+ years, hence the birth of Thameslink.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 17, 2014 15:01:11 GMT
Or are you suggesting that all parents should stay at home until their children are old enough to travel independently? To be fair, it would make things a lot more peaceful! I actually don't think that, of course, but I do think that if you have young kids, you should avoid jamming them onto a completely full train cause of service disruption. I was caught up in some Central line disruption a couple of years ago and a completely and utterly full to the brim train pulled into a Holborn platform that looked like Wembley stadium and mummy and daddy had no qualms about barging people out of the way to get their kids onto this train. I have never been more scared on a tube journey - for the kids in particular. I would've found another way home, or waited a few hours for the service to recover, of - if getting home on time was really that important - taken a cab - at least part of the way. I wouldn't have risked that. And, lo and behold, that's the next generation being taught how to live, just do like Mummy & Daddy.
What would be ideal is if parents took responsibility for their children in any public environment, especially somewhere as potentially dangerous for little children as the Tube. And for those who say, you need eyes like a hawk to keep a proper watch on them, that's what being a parent actually entails.
Just take a look at the sparrows in your garden & see how closely the parents scan the area for predators before they land on the deck to feed junior, or even go down on it to get food & take back up to the tree for the youngster. That's how basic the instinct to nurture your brood is, and should be in human beings.
There's plenty of places, like the back yard, for letting them find out what happens when you run around like a headless chicken & fall over. It hurts, you get up & hopefully think a little more next time before you do it.
Not quite the same on the Tube, and time for adults to take the responsibility, not the poor T/op or platform staff.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 17, 2014 11:40:55 GMT
I've also seen toddlers on their little bikes & scooters riding round on FGW and Tube trains.
As if bombing round a supermarket on them isn't bad enough. Typical parental over-indulgence all the way.
To be fair, the FGW guard on both occasions put a stop to it, though he got a barrage of abuse from the parent/parents both times.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 17, 2014 10:35:10 GMT
Yes, also a singularly unfortunate name for a Transport Minister in the circumstances!
We suffer from FGW here in Plymouth, as the main operator. Staff are generally admirable, often helpful as circumstances allow, but with all the Unis & colleges we now have down here & into Cornwall, the trains get packed very quickly all year round & getting to the buffet would tax Hercules and his 12 labours, with pushchairs, suitcases, students and tourists to negotiate.
I'm afraid the attitude that seeps through is the old Mothers of Invention album title:
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 15, 2014 14:01:05 GMT
The last stanza of Oscar:
And all men kill the thing they love, By all let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!
Oscar wrote it whilst in Reading Gaol, which was within a stone's throw of the railway, and no doubt inspired him.
Another aspect of the corporate could be platform/station announcements or posters/leaflets/pocket timetables.
As far as the former goes, my three trips to London in the last year, I don't recall, on LUL or NR, a single tannoy or even an electric signage using the c word, it always seemed to be passengers, even pre-recorded tannoys, but can't vouch for sure regarding posters etc. Looking at the wodge of Southern pocket timetables I got from East Croydon a few weeks back, both terms are used, but only for info about who to contact & no mention in footnotes of Passengers/customers are advised that anywhere.
In the TfL/LOL pocket timetable #4, the only mention beyond Southern's is to tell us that LOL has consistently scored high for customer satisfaction.
I must mention last October's station announcement coming up to exit Kings Cross St Pancras from the Northern Line, which reinforced an electric information sign about the current service on all lines. Passengers was used & the information was conveyed in a professional, thorough and yet friendly manner.
Probably helped by his opening gambit:
"Lissenup!"
Tottenham or Edmonton via Orange Street, Kingston, from the sound of it.
Absolutely brought a smile to everybody's face!
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 15, 2014 9:58:33 GMT
Well, getting slightly back on track, we recently got a Two Together Railcard.
No need on applying for that to specify anything beyond first applicant & second applicant. Partners don't come into that one.
Now, ashlar's link to the Hackney Gazette & the newly-approved Hackney Downs link there caught my eye the other day & I didn't realise why until starting this thread.
Don't know who this image is by, the HG, Tfl,LOL or other, but:
I find it quite revealing. That shouts customers to me, and possibly someone who hasn't used the line in question, though they may be a passenger on other Tfl lines?
Or doesn't their edition of Coral Draw have many people images?
I hope it isn't a sort of shorthand or quasi-masonic code that says the suits have now conquered Hackney, too, and are even now on the march from that interchange .
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 14, 2014 21:52:37 GMT
We might as well expand it to include meaningless & confusing phrases-not quite the same thing, but can be just as annoying.
For instance: part-time traffic signals.
Don't tell me you've never felt like asking them what their other job is?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 14, 2014 21:36:57 GMT
Significant Other was a decent album title, but that's as far as it goes.
Good job Peter Brown & Piblokto!/Battered Ornaments album titles didn't make their way into the language, though!
The long & the short of it is sizeist, if we decide to play them at their own PC games. So that's got rid of that one.
Partner is probably more loaded to older people, though I never had the slightest prejudice towards anyone who preferred using it, regardless of their actual situation.
The only broadbrush(Damn! I'm at it now) sorry, the only universal thing I can think of to replace it & upset as few people as possible, is suitable for the digital age, but is a bit New Age as well:
2R1
Still, it does have something, and it accurately says you are in a settled relationship.
Plus, if they then ask for further details, you can turn a dreaded phrase or two round on them:
On a need-to-know-basis, you are at the bottom of the knowledge food chain.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 14, 2014 19:34:16 GMT
Yes, partners belong in John Wayne & Gary Cooper westerns, thanks. Along with cows, who eat grass, which is why Manuel Santana was never that bothered about Wimbledon, so he said.
Now, seminars-let's stray back to c.1999 & my Civil service days. We are being told to learn from the private sector. So, we extend the number of team meetings and start planning meetings as well, the latter replacing senior managers making a decision, even if coming up with strategic decisions is precisely what they are paid for.
Before long, we 'evolve' to pre-meeting meetings to effect planning, then split that into pre-meeting strategy meetings and pre-meeting expectation meetings. At this stage, work has yet to come to a juddering halt.
One day, a suggestion is made(I was there & heard it)-post-meeting meetings. The voice further suggested the senior management should effect the post-meeting debriefing. Then, on the basis of Career Development Opportunities(very big tick in buzzword of the millennium old & new box), junior staff should, on a rotational basis, hold post-meeting learning opportunities meetings, post-meeting operational suggestions meetings, post-meeting feedback formulation meetings and post-meeting planning for the next meeting meetings. All of this was said with a straight face.
Had this been from a mustard-keen junior management acolyte, it would have meant fast-track promotion. As it came from a different and rather unexpected source, senior management took it on board and claimed it as their own.
Which was mildly embarrassing three months later, as work throughput went through---------the floor.
The scale of the catastrophe was only truly realised a further six months on, and Whitehall, or its' equivalent in London, had to point out to senior management just how much time was being lost to totally pointless meetings and that senior management should have had more nous than to come up with such insane notions.
Motto-beware of listening to suggestions from staff who were told at the age of five they would never need to kiss the Blarney Stone, especially when you read that on their job application and you interviewed them, too, and should therefore have been aware it still held true forty-odd years on.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 14, 2014 15:31:10 GMT
I, as I have said earlier in the thread, detest customer too. Even more so as with what I call an Old Fogie's Travel Card I don't have to pay, well I am nearly 78, so how can I be a customer anyway? There was a programme on TV last night about railways, and they were referring to their passengers as passengers, so we are not alone. Passengers stand and be counted!!!! John I detest the term "customer" when used in place of passenger. There are the opening offerings in our new thread. Several of us clearly prefer to be seen as passengers and not customers. Whilst we should be glad that some of the suits have now realised ‘clients’ is wholly inappropriate, there is still a long way to go. This all seems to’ve started around the early to mid-1970’s, when dustmen became refuse collectors, in an attempt to glamourise a dirty but necessary job. It’s not always wrong, because whilst our fellow forum member aslefshrugged blogs as a train driver, he honestly can be called a train operator, because guards on Tube trains went out with the ark, so it’s him and his fellow inhabitors of the driver’s cab who are doing the whole job of operating the train. My particular concern is that the suits, especially the marketing side, have had such success in raising train useage that they’ve become increasingly focused on new users, and that’s why we all keep getting referred to as customers. They don’t realise that customers have a choice, and most of their passengers don’t, they use the Tube to get to work, day in and day out, and were in many cases doing so before the mobile phone or apps were invented. Backed with that thought, are they overly concerned with effectively putting a new coat of gloss paint on the exterior for the customers, whilst for mere passengers the interior remains, in some places, run-down, dingy and outdated? Your thoughts will be very welcome, whatever your opinion on this issue. And, if you want to add any further lurid examples of the suit’s nomenclature, please feel free to do so. Or indeed, redefine the basics of railways, such as platform, tracks etc. in their language, because we could all do with a laugh.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 14, 2014 15:24:19 GMT
I've started a new thread on the Other LU & TfL matters board on this topic of the 'c' word, simply called Passengers or not? as I'm conscious(which is in itself unusual!) we've inadvertently shunted whistlekiller2000's question into the goods sidings, for which many apologies.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 14, 2014 14:12:18 GMT
Indeed, even a steam train is theoretically possible, at least on the above ground sections. The main issues would be weight and curve radii I think, as the loading gauge is relatively generous, but given that narrow gauge and port railways have solved these problems before I don't see them as insurmountable given sufficient desire and funds. It would need to be able to communicate with the signalling as well of course. As my late father, Normandy veteran & 1st class stoker would have told us, it's all in creating enough steam fast enough & then maintaining a head of it for the tricky bits, train engine or battleship.
The tricky bits on the DLR are the switchback humps and bumps on certain parts. But I reckon if you had two or three Hunslets, Kitsons or the like heading a train & possibly one or two at the back, you would overcome the head of steam and weight problems vide motive power.
In all honesty, you would also then need scaled-down carriages regarding the weight problems, but having been on the Bure Valley Line, when a 15" loco hauled fifteen full narrow-gauge coaches and was only half an hour late in arriving at Dereham, it's surprising what can be done.
Platform heights would be a problem, but it would be worth it just to see a train like that passing through the DLR & leaving suits, bankers, yuppies and PR people open-mouthed at what can be done. Though not too open-mouthed, we don't want anybody swallowing smuts, of course.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 13, 2014 21:41:58 GMT
Now between 1971 and 1998 I was based at Rayners Lane station and took over the filling of the vending machines from South Harrow to Uxbridge in the mid 70's early 80's. All the stock was stored at Rayners Lane in two large, metal, bins in a room behind the staff accommodation on the Westbound platform. The stock was delivered monthly in boxes of 36 bars or trays of 18 packets of gum.
If you've ever stood on an outer London underground station and wondered about the odd alcoves in the wall here and there that is probably the place where the machines were mounted. Most of these alcoves have probably been refurbished out of existence by now.
I can't believe I am recalling events from 40 or so years ago - where's the time gone?
IIRC Uxbridge had three machines, none at Hillingdon, 2 at Ickenham, Ruislip, Ruislip Manor and Eastcote, 4 at Rayners Lane and 2 at South Harrow. I am now getting the feeling that I may have done Sudbury Hill and Sudbury Town as well but my memory is hazy. Well, when on holiday last October, we stayed at Uxbridge & one night coming back from the theatre, we had to change at Rayner's Lane & then Ruislip Manor(unscheduled). Supper was in the Travel Lodge room at 23:45, which we'd purchased from Victoria NR station concourse.
But, guess what? At both those stations, your alcoves were still clearly visible. Wondered what they were there for, or were they part of the Art Deco styling?
Thanks-great to know!!
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 13, 2014 20:36:45 GMT
Thank you, yes.
All that was in 2007/8 and she's officially been in remission since last October.
Still not a customer service satisfaction survey in sight, either!
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 13, 2014 19:53:32 GMT
NHS management now call patients "service users"... Luckily most doctors and nurses ignore such idiotic language. I am in an awkward position with regards this, I have customers (their trade pays my wages) but I also have patients (people requiring medicines); some people are only customers (if you only want to buy a packet of baby wipes you're a customer) but all of my patients are customers. I have a number of patients who are receiving treatment for ongoing mental health problems, they aren't necessarily unwell, and they make use of the services available from my Pharmacy, and I generally refer to this group of people as "clients". I don't really like the term "service users", but unfortunately it has always been the way that anyone being treated by the NHS is making use of a service. The service may be provided by a health trust or a contractor, contractors are numerous; remember your GP is an NHS contractor! Yes, I can see your position is a bit different. Even so, I'm very glad the NHS didn't carry out any customer satisfaction surveys at any stage during my wife's breast cancer operations/chemotherapy/radiotherapy etc, otherwise even her dear sweet self might have used language that I usually do!
Luckily, I knew we would be OK, as her plastic surgeon/consultant laughed at my jokes when we first met him! One thing to humour the patient, quite another to humour her husband, I reckon.
As far as railways go, passengers will always be the word for me, principally because customer implies you choose to use this service, and I wonder what percentage have a choice?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 13, 2014 15:39:53 GMT
And I very much hope that will remain the case, when we finally see how they deal with non-LCD hard copy cus***** travel-zone directional indicators in-car maps.
I expect they're working on it as we speak, under a project name no-one else will understand.
Still, if at least WE know where we're going anyway, we can help the befuddled if said project doesn't quite materialise as it ought to.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 13, 2014 9:02:44 GMT
At least the Romford to Upminster line (known at least by older members of our community as "The Push and Pull") only has three stations. There have been proposals for two more which would benefit a number of possible passengers. (Can't stand the word beginning Cus meaning passengers.) John (soon be 78). No doubt platforms will be redesignated cus***** interfaces, and a satisfactory solution on carriage maps will be deemed a cus***** enhancement experience, along with a decent cuppa in the station buffet and having staff around, instead of all being standard practice we should expect.
I'm sure they will indeed number the new routes and then, if the stock has luggage spaces, panels for each different route might appear on the wall beside these, or an overview map on one side, with a different route map on the other side of each carriage.
And if they don't have luggage spaces, there may not be any information panels.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 12, 2014 22:12:57 GMT
Sorry, my fault!!
The local paper link is interesting. First:
TfL say footpath will cut across Malpas Close and Poulton Close, reducing the route between the two stations from 600 metres to 200. This would not impact the travelling time, which is currently about five minutes.
Then:
Transport for London’s director of London Overground, Mike Stubbs, said: “The new covered walkway between Hackney Downs and Hackney Central stations is part of TfL’s wider objective to make all of its rail stations more accessible, more secure and easier to use. The Hackney Interchange will reduce journey times by making it much quicker and easier for passengers wanting to change between West Anglia services and the London Overground network and so give them new options on how they complete their journeys. Interchanging at Hackney will also reduce congestion at Liverpool Street station, which is currently where many passengers travel before changing to other services.”
My underlines in both cases. Which do you think is right? Could it be a factor in why work hasn't started yet?
I'd say if that was written in February & we are now in August, then a summer start looks a bit unlikely now. But we also don't know the source of the journalist's time-line for that.
Just a thought, wonder if they will be monitoring use of Walthamstow's link before proceeding with Hackney's? No reason it should turn out to be under-used, but do they need to be sure before they commit to the expenditure?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 12, 2014 14:59:49 GMT
Well, according to Wikipedia:
TfL is part of the Greater London Authority and is constituted as a statutory corporation regulated under local government finance rules.[63] It has three subsidiaries: London Transport Insurance (Guernsey) Ltd, TfL Trustee Company Ltd and Transport Trading Ltd (TTL), and London Underground Limited is a subsidiary of TTL.[63
So we are both right.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 12, 2014 14:29:39 GMT
I noticed when on holiday a few weeks back, when we went to Walton-On-The-Naze for the day, how easily a 15mph off-shore breeze started to turn those buggies on the pier; no danger there btw, but disconcerting for the little 'un!
I expect because of that foldability precept, neither manufacturers nor users are fully aware of just how easily the resultant lightweight metalwork can be moved in a direction different to that intended.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 12, 2014 14:21:51 GMT
One thing which both this link and the Walthamstow link have in common is that TfL / local councils have been lousy at communicating their plans to the public. A stark contrast to LU, who publicise every tiny infrastructure change with press releases, posters and announcements. True, but LUL are private, the councils are public, and which do you think has that much more money to publicise beyond publishing statutory notices in the local rag? The other side of the coin, if they did, would no doubt be a diatribe from certain organisations about wasting ratepayer's money over trivia. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I think.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 12, 2014 9:44:34 GMT
More to the point, does being a Global Moderator allow you access to a decent cup of tea on board a train?
I am a coffee man, but my wife prefers tea, and has yet to encounter a decent cup on NR.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 11, 2014 21:10:05 GMT
Thank Christ all was OK.
Quite horrendous what could have transpired at any point in this incident.
I would say leaving the buggy facing the tracks & no adult holding on to it is worrying, even placed where it was.
Kids move in those things, you know, for a start.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 11, 2014 8:49:00 GMT
Oh well, I know Scott Walker could sing "The Lights Of Newton Abbot" instead of Cincinatti, but it doesn't quite have the same ambience.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 10, 2014 22:17:42 GMT
I do believe it might be here where I live-Plymouth.
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