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Post by theblackferret on Sept 10, 2014 17:19:32 GMT
Blimey-that is indeed a metro! Cheap, too, and er cheerful?
And I can't see anyway they can abate the exponential expansion they're going to need, unlike their attempts to limit population.
Wonder if there is ever a noticeable off-peak service anywhere on it; or would that just constitute the station staff pushing a little less harder?
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 10, 2014 9:59:34 GMT
The issue I have with this is not that the message exists, but that it is displayed at the wrong times. "Stand back, train approaching" is only useful when the train is imminently due into the platform (less than 1 minute away) but has not arrived yet. Instead I've seen it shown when a train isn't approaching, for three minutes before a train shows, for the entire duration a train is in the platform, when the train is in or even leaving the platform. Incorrect information can be worse than no information at all. Yes indeed. I wonder if that information is electronically triggered by the train itself, or by the Control Room, once any train's reached a certain point. If so, then from the little I understand of railway signalling, the following train won't be able to enter that section until said section is cleared, and the section would only clear once the first train has called at and left the platform area. It may also be that there's an intermediate signal after the 1-minute or 3-minute points which sometimes catches the 'approaching' train and renders the information inaccurate. I don't know, but there must be some station approaches busier than others, DLR or conventional Tube. Unfortunately, I can't remember what the indicators say on the conventional Tubes when the train's sat at the platform. Not because I'm busy getting on it, it's just not something I'd thought about, I just have a feeling, it's a line of ***********************, but can't be sure. I have definitely had trains 'approaching' for well over a minute on both our last holidays in London on Piccadilly, H & C and Northern Lines. That is irritating, even if it can be understood from the operating point of view.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 9, 2014 16:25:15 GMT
Right, I think we can say DLR are not keen, so we need to encourage them.
Build a Tube line from Barking Riverside right through London to Greenford.
Just another Crossrail? Nope, branches join it from Romford, and from over the river, from Abbey Wood etc.
And from Sutton, Mill Hill, too, so you not only get everybody onto it, you get cross-connection north to south, cross-river connection, and something to ease pressure on the Central and Piccadilly lines.
DLR & LO will soon want to join the ballgame then.PS-Purely on the thread subject, this seems more and more to be a very partial answer to the transport problems, development of that area etc. Hesitate to say doing it on the cheap, but I do wonder? PPS-As proposed by rockorange below, new thread for this project may be found here: Green River Line
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 8, 2014 20:46:48 GMT
theblackferretWhat about just making the Tube Map bigger, and keep all the LU and LO (plus Thameslink & Crossrail 1) on it. Larger map being more readable. I'm not against that as another modus operandi. So people get the choice.
I'd just guess that LUL has a higher usage than the rest and therefore should be a separate port of call, as it were, because the majority of users will on the Tube, not on the peripheries.
When rockorange's lines get built, of course, you will need a very big foldout map, for Tubes and the others!!!
Mainly because people will be flocking to them in unprecedented numbers, with London's transport network finally having a network and connectivity relevant to the 21st Century.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 8, 2014 20:36:03 GMT
The problem might be the date on Thursday, come to think of it?
Especially for security people.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 8, 2014 20:25:39 GMT
Beck's map was based on electrical circuitry. So is that unofficial redesign, from what I can see.
That's continuity; the problem today, compared to 1932, is we now not only have extended Central, Piccadilly & Northern Lines, but also completely new Jubilee, Victoria & DLR lines, London Overground revived and reconnected, Thameslink connections, Network Rail with 3 million different operating companies, to be followed shortly by Crossrail.
In other words, the circuit box is a darn site fuller all of a sudden-information overload?
Could the answer be to make the 4-page pocket tube map 8 pages, so 2 pages are dedicated solely to showing LUL lines & stations, with appropriate colours or symbols at interchange with LO, NR, etc, the obverse of those 2 pages containing all the other lines, including Crossrail, in detail ie all stations, with the appropriate LU line colour on the interchange station?
I think they must separate LUL on the map & that might be the way to do it.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 8, 2014 18:35:28 GMT
That looks good in principle, except for it being discussed as a replacemet for the DLR extension to Dagenham Dock rather than as a supplement to it; and the lack of an intermediate station giving a park and ride for the A13 and a local station for the communities there. I have made both points in my submission as I wont be able to get to any of the events. Regrettably there is no vision and no plan for the Dagenham Dock DLR extension. It is not in the Mayor's 2050 Plan so you can wave goodbye to it even though I think it would be beneficial and especially for Barking Reach. I also agree with you about the lack of intermediate stations - there is already a bit of a lobby for a stop near Renwick Road and I think one near Ripple Road would be well used and beneficial. The proposed location of the new Riverside station, while allowing an extension under the Thames, means it is away from existing housing at Barking Reach and Thames View meaning some people face a long walk or a bus ride to access it. In turn the new line will be surrounded by new housing meaning it's likely to be overloaded only a few years after opening. I believe they need both lines. The DLR should also then extend to Dagenham Heathway (with further new stations) to complete connectivity within the area ie DLR <===> LUL District Line.
The proposed LO branch is too tentative alone, as with most dead-end branches, because there's just one way and one destination; what about Barking Riverside <====> Dagenham or Riverside <====> Docklands journeys? Be interesting to see if they've surveyed those and reckon there's no call, won't it?
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 7, 2014 16:23:26 GMT
Does anyone know whether there is anything to get excited about here & if so when?
Will the proposed stock be bringing something new to the Northern Line passenger 'experience', or even improving it?
I just wondered if anyone knows if TfL's detailed yet what this would bring-improved comfort? Time-keeping? Increased service levels? All 3? Something else entirely?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
The extra Jubilee trains will go towards increasing the frequency up to about 34tph. The first few Northern line trains will be to allow a service on the Northern line extension and if the bigger order goes ahead it will result in an increased frequency on the Northern line (mostly on the central and northern branches). I can't remember the proposed tph. Thanks.
Not excitement, but relief is hereby engendered with that news.
I'm glad the priority is increasing the train frequency throughout, because I bet that would be number 1 priority for the majority of passengers on both lines, if they were consulted, and maybe they were-good for TfL!
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 7, 2014 11:55:50 GMT
I'd have to say, it's preferable to have the 'other' information regarding lifts, overall train service etc. on separate boards or indicators before you actually worry about where the next train's heading. Preferably still on the platform as well.
It wouldn't take much to reprogram the display to say, for example,:
STAND BACK BECKTON TRAIN NOW!
would it? That way, the length and size of the display could remain the same, because you've got rid of APPROACHING and have now got space for the terminating station name instead.
I think health and safety would dictate anyone hard of hearing must have some visual indicator assistance there, but this way would meet those requirements as well.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 7, 2014 11:43:01 GMT
Sorry to hear about this.
Glad you were restrained enough not to ask either of them politely why their 'How to be a human being' training course had apparently been cut short.
That photography of yours tells a story. The more you look at it, the more you see.
You should seriously think, when the record is complete, of getting them issued, as a limited edition photographic print, or probably a set of them, as I see you are already on page 2. There might be quite a few people seriously interested in this, because it's both art and a historical archive in one hit, and how many things can you say that about?
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 6, 2014 21:30:49 GMT
Ah, but maybe it's now going to do what it says on the tin-go over the Northern Heights and reach you in 'Ull.
New depot at Mill Hill East-145 mph bullet trains, next stop, East Riding of Yorkshire.
From this week's deadline-day deals, you've got the cash for it!
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 6, 2014 19:51:41 GMT
Does anyone know whether there is anything to get excited about here & if so when?
Will the proposed stock be bringing something new to the Northern Line passenger 'experience', or even improving it?
I just wondered if anyone knows if TfL's detailed yet what this would bring-improved comfort? Time-keeping? Increased service levels? All 3? Something else entirely?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 5, 2014 21:34:51 GMT
Fair do's, given your photographic experience!
But, why no shadow off the sign or the train? I see there's an apparent shadow where the platform meets the wall-is that from the black strip at the top of the wall where it meets the roof curve?
Because if that is a shadow of the black strip, surely the sign or train should give off a shadow, too?
Also wonder where the work is on-going on the platform, if this is not a composite? If the work which has caused the station closure was on the line itself, there surely wouldn't be a train going through it at all-Health & Safety?
I genuinely think this is a mock-up; and probably a training mock-up for(drivers?). Q-What's wrong with this picture A-speed limit shown through a closed station is too high.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 5, 2014 15:52:53 GMT
Don't know about the authenticity of the sign or that particular speed limit, but that photo's a mock-up.
Two reasons: the mirror-image of the sign is reflected with amazingly clarity of definition on the covered board, which is too far away from the open sign to have the C reversed on that image-it would more likely be the D of closed at the start.
Second, there is a very slight blurring of definition on the borders of most things in the pic. Except for two-the speed limit board is very clear compared to things nearer & further away than it is from the camera.
And doesn't the actual train look very clear, especially if this train is actually passing through a closed station? Look at the regular pattern of lights underneath it, too, even at 5mph, surely that wouldn't be so clear and straight-lined if that train'd truly been in this shot.
My wife has pointed out a third reason-with overhead lighting, shouldn't the opened sign be casting a shadow onto the platform & just possibly the train should be, too, stationary or moving?
A mock-up it is, but it may have been mocked-up for a training exercise ie what is wrong in this photo(the 30 kph speed?).
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 5, 2014 11:39:57 GMT
Sorry, meant the signage in the space between the platforms: Photo is from 1988, believe the 'paint job' you see wasn't effected until c. 1982
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 4, 2014 21:41:40 GMT
Thanks for this!
Bet they also loved screwing Charing Cross over Trafalgar Square.
And then screwing Embankment over-Charing Cross.
Mind you, wasn't this the very station where the train describers carried Camberwell for 40 years after the extension there was given up as a bad idea before a yard had been excavated?
Could you see if Aldwych or Epping-Ongar are still on their maps? You never know with Warwick Avenue; a genuine denial of the space-time continuum, it would appear!
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 4, 2014 21:03:09 GMT
Plenty of Kennington terminators. All Charing Cross trains terminate there, except for during the peaks and late evenings. So maybe it's the peak viewing audience that's being whisked off to all points South?
It is intriguing to find out why they aren't using the opportunity there, because whilst they are rightly fussy about the timbre and tone of adverts, they usually like to give you something to look at.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 4, 2014 14:59:31 GMT
Hi and welcome.
I wonder if there's enough terminators at Kennington to make it worthwhile, or if there are, whether there's sufficient of a gap before the next Morden train for people to be bothered with adverts?
I suppose the question is, what's the state of the Northbound platform in comparison? If it is advertising exec's heaven, or at least has some adverts, then maybe the captive audience is the commuter is going to work and not the one returning from it. Maybe adverts are an escape from the reality of work for more than find them preferable to thoughts of going home?
Or maybe they are about to refurbish the walls-I did notice that branch's platform at Bank had wire netting up and a few surprise holes in the wall in May, when I used it. Could just be maintenance, but..........??
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 2, 2014 11:09:23 GMT
Thanks for this-I've been told so many times how amazing Istanbul is, but I never knew it was quite such a transport enthusiast's delight, too.
The preserved terminus at Haydarpa?a is astounding. It almost seems like a shrine or other holy place at which to worship the train.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 1, 2014 16:20:19 GMT
Hi Chris M
I think the general answer to most of you questions is whether there's something different to be seen and photographed from the new location other than that which is already there, especially at platform level, but not forgetting the entrances and passageways to the trains. That would also apply to Seven Sisters etc.
If NR services & new LOL services depart from a different island platform next to each other, the outlook may be too similar. I'm not familiar enough with any of them to be definite on whether that's the case.
On Crossrail, I think stick to the terminus at Reading to make the new line an organic whole, but treat Paddington as entirely something else separate from what's there. The ones you mention such as TCR, unless a radical rethink happens before opening, should stay as the current on-topic location.
The double-ended stations would seem to fall into the treat as 2 separate stations/locations.
The only other one I can think of is Cannon Street and the Thameslink entry thereto next January, although I know not what, if anything, they are doing to it beyond finally utilizing its capacity at last?
And thanks from all of us for your anticipation in this!
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 31, 2014 22:09:34 GMT
Right, finally solved the Gaslight Riddle. According to Dr Edwin Course in Middleton Press's The Tilbury loop, the gas lighting went around 1977. So, as the pictures include one from the period of diesel operation in 1976, when it's clearly still gaslit, looks like 1978 would be the latest it went. So, the award goes to-------------------- SELSDON!! Pity it's now closed & in no state to receive the award.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 31, 2014 22:05:41 GMT
Apparently, the Halt reappeared on signage in 2009 or 2010.
It's certainly never been a request stop.
Will be interesting to see what happens to the signage next year when LOL takes it over!
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 31, 2014 21:01:05 GMT
As far as I remember, a halt tended to be unstaffed, though not invariably, and mostly, though again not invariably, with a limited number of trains on the line in question stopping there, whereas a platform was mostly a by request stop only, and very often with a golf links or golf club in the title.
Neither definition was set in stone and both useages not only varied between the Southern & Great Western Railways, neither of those organisations were always consistent in their respective applications of the terms. Not to mention what the railway's timetables, signs or tickets might do to add to the confusion, before Bradshaw is taken into consideration.From memory, wasn't a "platform" a location that had no facilities for handling goods, rather than anything to do with passenger provision? Now then-that could be right. I'm just thinking of a few lines here in Plymouth. The current branch to Gunnislake used to stretch to Callington and was LSWR, then Southern Railway. There were many variations of which of the stations culled in 1966 were halts-but pictures I've seen for all of Latchley, Luckett and Chilsworthy(the what-were-they trio) show minimal but clear goods handlings facilities. Compared to the GWR & the Princetown branch(closed 1956), only the branch junction(Horrabridge)& terminus had these. The three halts at Ingra Tor, Burrator and King Tor were opened years after the line and were intended for hikers etc only. And, possibly the clincher-on Brunel's main line from Exeter to Plymouth, there is, according to Wiki: Bittaford Platform[edit]
Located at
50.3977°N 3.8766°W
An unstaffed station was opened by the Great Western Railway at Bittaford on 18 November 1907 and closed on 2 March 1959. It was situated immediately east of Bittaford Viaduct.
There were no goods facilities but Redlake Siding was opened ¾ mile to the west on 10 September 1911. This siding served a large china clay drier which processed clay brought by pipeline from Redlake on Dartmoor; the eight mile long, 3 ft (914 mm) gauge Redlake Tramway was used to carry materials between Redlake Siding and the clay pits.
There are no visible remains of the platform, but original iron tube fencing remains to be seen behind the site of the former London bound platform .The clay drier at Redlake Siding is still intact, now modified for use by an engineering company, despite the siding closing on 7 July 1932.
That's the only platform I can trace, note it was opened as Halt(e)s started coming into use and specifically was built without regard to goods handling. Jumping back up to Kent, the Hundred of Hoo Railway had halts at Uralite, Beluncle & Grain Crossing and all had goods handling facilities or, in the case of Beluncle were built next to a previously-existing farmer's goods siding. On the SER line from Charing X to Strood before that line branched off, Stone Crossing and Swanscombe Halts, later to become stations, had goods-handling facilities from the start for the local chalk & cement industries. Thanks-that's cleared that one up. Now if we can nail down Emerson Park's conversion!
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 31, 2014 17:49:29 GMT
And, more infuriatingly, Wiki has this, when I googled Last BR station with gas lighting:
"Ilkley is notable in that it was the last British Rail station to be lit by gas. The gas lights were extinguished for the last time on 8 May 1988."
Fortunately, Ilkley is also nowhere near Selsdon nor Emerson Park, so the London crown is still up for grabs.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 31, 2014 14:10:49 GMT
Thanks, yes, it is Longcross, as that's the one in deeply wooded countryside and next to what I thought was Sunningdale Golf course, but is in fact Wentworth.
Passenger usage in 2011/12 was over 12,000 per annum, a far cry from 2005-6's 465 in a whole year!
Sunningdale, by comparison, was 684,000 usage in 2011/12.
Wiki lists Longcross as a 'minor stop', so is that the new nomenclature for a halt?
Beltring(& Branbridges Halt) on the Medway Valley Line in Kent was still signed as a halt at least until 1987. Wiki calls that a Station on & its' usage has nearly doubled from c 6,900 in 2004-5 to 13,152 in 2012/13.
Kemsing on the other line to Maidstone, was always treated as a halt by Southern Region, and is now treated as a station by Wiki. Passenger usage here has gone up from just over 11,000 to just over 20,000 in the two years above.
I originally knew these two from teenage activities & believe both are as good for said activities today.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 31, 2014 12:04:59 GMT
Others mentioned in this thread:
The ex-GWR halts out of Paddington(Old Oak Common etc.)were closed in 1947, when the Central Line extended out to Ruislip.
The likes of Poyle Estate Halt etc. closed with the branch in 1965.
As far as I remember, a halt tended to be unstaffed, though not invariably, and mostly, though again not invariably, with a limited number of trains on the line in question stopping there, whereas a platform was mostly a by request stop only, and very often with a golf links or golf club in the title.
Neither definition was set in stone and both useages not only varied between the Southern & Great Western Railways, neither of those organisations were always consistent in their respective applications of the terms. Not to mention what the railway's timetables, signs or tickets might do to add to the confusion, before Bradshaw is taken into consideration.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 31, 2014 11:32:55 GMT
Mordon Road & Waddon Marsh on the Wimbledon-West Croydon line(that Tramlink swallowed)were officially de-haltified with the timetable issued on 5.5.1969, when Southern Region ended the use of the term entirely.
Neither of these stations were manned thereafter until the line closed on 31.5.1997.
Selsdon was gaslit until the very end in 1983,but was never classified as a halt or platform.
Emerson Park's useage has tripled in the last 10 years, and is now over 2,000 passengers a week.
However, despite what you may seed on train indicators or in timetables:
It is STILL signed as a halt!
No ticket machines, no station buildings, just a canopy under which is a TV monitor giving train arrival & departures info.
And, the crucial part, the line was electrified in 1986, with the advent of Network SouthEast-their logo is still(?)fired into the platform. So was that when the gas lighting went; does it beat Selsdon?
The latter had Oxted-Croydon going through it, not electrified until after overall closure of that station, those trains ceased using Selsdon in 1959, whereas Woodside-Sanderstead trains ended in May 1983 & had been electrified since 1935 & the Woodside line's pointless reopening after a 17-year slumber!!
The tension is unbearable, Hastings,n'est ce-pas?Footnote-J.E.Connor's London's disused Stations Vol 4-South Eastern Railway records:"Selsdon remained gas-lit until the end with its unattended mantles burning night and day. It was one of the last, if not the very last station within Greater London to be illuminated in this manner."
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 29, 2014 16:42:49 GMT
In Devon, Lympstone Commando and Exton on the Avocet line, all the intermediate stations on the Tarka line except Crediton and Eggsford are request stops. In Cornwall St Keynes Wishing Well Halt, Causeland, Sandplace, and intermediate stations between Par and Newquay are request stops. Coombe Junction on the Looe line gets just 2 trains a day, compared to which you might think the others are veritable thrashing or throbbing metropoli.
Not quite! I've never seen an intermediate passenger depart or board except one American couple at St Keyne gone to see the Music Museum or Wishing Well, and I've done that line about 12 times in the 20 years we've lived in Plymouth.
We did it last about three months ago and I asked the guard about intermediate passengers. His reply 'What's them, then?'. Just goes to show it takes all sorts of stations to make a rail network.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 29, 2014 15:35:50 GMT
There's no such thing now as a halt or request stop on NR/LUL/LOL, at least officially.
However:
Anything closed on Saturday and/or Sunday, with the exception(until next year)of Cannon Street.
Anything with a distinctly smaller number of stopping trains calling than those that are not scheduled to stop there, even during peak hours.
Anywhere the last train from London is 1 or 2 hours before the other stations are served on that line.
Would any of these seem to you to be indicators of what is effectively a halt, sean? Tramline has whole sections closed on Sundays, on some parts of which through WCT cars run, but on others, not a sausage.
Birkbeck, Beckenham Junction, Knockholt, Ravensbourne & possibly others on the Catford Loop come to mind. Possibly Sunningdale on the way to Reading, nearly Greater London!
Off-peck hours are presumably when pigeons are not on platforms or on trains with food on offer?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 29, 2014 10:08:02 GMT
And doesn't the British film "The Yellow Balloon" have a chase sequence on the Underground at the end where the boy is pursued by the villain? I seem to remember underground, rather than sub-surface, with stairs and cross passageways involved? Alistair Yes, according to J Lee Thompson, director, they only had one shot from an actual underground station and the rest was studio set. It's likeliest Gloucester Road was used as the working station shot, but we should remember Aldwych at that time(1953)still had a disused platform, out of action since 1917, so maybe there were actually two involved in Yellow Balloon.
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