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Post by theblackferret on Aug 14, 2014 15:31:10 GMT
I, as I have said earlier in the thread, detest customer too. Even more so as with what I call an Old Fogie's Travel Card I don't have to pay, well I am nearly 78, so how can I be a customer anyway? There was a programme on TV last night about railways, and they were referring to their passengers as passengers, so we are not alone. Passengers stand and be counted!!!! John I detest the term "customer" when used in place of passenger. There are the opening offerings in our new thread. Several of us clearly prefer to be seen as passengers and not customers. Whilst we should be glad that some of the suits have now realised ‘clients’ is wholly inappropriate, there is still a long way to go. This all seems to’ve started around the early to mid-1970’s, when dustmen became refuse collectors, in an attempt to glamourise a dirty but necessary job. It’s not always wrong, because whilst our fellow forum member aslefshrugged blogs as a train driver, he honestly can be called a train operator, because guards on Tube trains went out with the ark, so it’s him and his fellow inhabitors of the driver’s cab who are doing the whole job of operating the train. My particular concern is that the suits, especially the marketing side, have had such success in raising train useage that they’ve become increasingly focused on new users, and that’s why we all keep getting referred to as customers. They don’t realise that customers have a choice, and most of their passengers don’t, they use the Tube to get to work, day in and day out, and were in many cases doing so before the mobile phone or apps were invented. Backed with that thought, are they overly concerned with effectively putting a new coat of gloss paint on the exterior for the customers, whilst for mere passengers the interior remains, in some places, run-down, dingy and outdated? Your thoughts will be very welcome, whatever your opinion on this issue. And, if you want to add any further lurid examples of the suit’s nomenclature, please feel free to do so. Or indeed, redefine the basics of railways, such as platform, tracks etc. in their language, because we could all do with a laugh. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Aug 14, 2014 16:25:33 GMT
I could write a very long list of terms I find cringeworthy, most of which have crept into everyday use over the last 10 or 15 years for no reason that I can see other than to make the person using them sound more "with it". Sadly the capital city is the market leader when it comes to pointless verbal horse droppings and it's even seeping into Yorkshire now, such is the power of the idiot box and the internet.
As well as Customer instead of Passenger, here's a few examples of things I'll never ever say........unless taking the proverbial of course.......
24/7 ("all day, all week" is just fine)
Just sayin' (I'm not a mid-western American DJ)
Laters (laziness in language is just embarrassing)
Drill down (when describing looking into data more closely)
Wimbleware (obviously....)
And many, many more.........some will say its evolution of language. I fear the reverse is true.
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Post by peterc on Aug 14, 2014 17:05:05 GMT
If I buy a ticket for somebody else I am a customer.
If I travel I am a passenger.
Easy.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 14, 2014 17:33:01 GMT
Easy - it depends on your view of what the railway is for:
- if it is to extract money from people, and running the trains is simply a necessary corollary to that, they are customers
- if it is to move people from place to place, and the fares are necessray to help finance this, they are passengers
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 14, 2014 17:34:10 GMT
I could write a very long list of terms I find cringeworthy, most of which have crept into everyday use over the last 10 or 15 years for no reason that I can see other than to make the person using them sound more "with it". Sadly the capital city is the market leader when it comes to pointless verbal horse droppings and it's even seeping into Yorkshire now, such is the power of the idiot box and the internet. As well as Customer instead of Passenger, here's a few examples of things I'll never ever say........unless taking the proverbial of course....... 24/7 ("all day, all week" is just fine) Just sayin' (I'm not a mid-western American DJ) Laters (laziness in language is just embarrassing) Drill down (when describing looking into data more closely) Wimbleware (obviously....) And many, many more.........some will say its evolution of language. I fear the reverse is true. I detest it when my wife is referred to as 'your partner' I usually respond: "no this lady is my wife, we're not running a company. I think all this 'cr*p speak' started when companies started holding seminars. I remember going to one about ten years ago, when I was a service manager, the topic being 'communicating with your customer base' (You're ahead of me but stay with it) After the first hour of 'thinking outside the box' and the usual America speak, the suit asked if there were any questions. From the back of the room, a manager of many years experience asked: "Could you repeat the last hour in plain English, and not the Madison Avenue advertising cr*p speak?" At the end of the day we had to fill in a questionnaire, most of the answers were "Total waste of time/don't teach your granny to suck eggs etc" It's when you find out how much these suits charge for a day is when you really feel hacked off  |
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pitdiver
No longer gainfully employed
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Post by pitdiver on Aug 14, 2014 19:15:27 GMT
I could write a very long list of terms I find cringeworthy, most of which have crept into everyday use over the last 10 or 15 years for no reason that I can see other than to make the person using them sound more "with it". Sadly the capital city is the market leader when it comes to pointless verbal horse droppings and it's even seeping into Yorkshire now, such is the power of the idiot box and the internet. As well as Customer instead of Passenger, here's a few examples of things I'll never ever say........unless taking the proverbial of course....... 24/7 ("all day, all week" is just fine) Just sayin' (I'm not a mid-western American DJ) Laters (laziness in language is just embarrassing) Drill down (when describing looking into data more closely) Wimbleware (obviously....) And many, many more.........some will say its evolution of language. I fear the reverse is true. I detest it when my wife is referred to as 'your partner' I usually respond: "no this lady is my wife, we're not running a company. I think all this 'cr*p speak' started when companies started holding seminars. I remember going to one about ten years ago, when I was a service manager, the topic being 'communicating with your customer base' (You're ahead of me but stay with it) After the first hour of 'thinking outside the box' and the usual America speak, the suit asked if there were any questions. From the back of the room, a manager of many years experience asked: "Could you repeat the last hour in plain English, and not the Madison Avenue advertising cr*p speak?" At the end of the day we had to fill in a questionnaire, most of the answers were "Total waste of time/don't teach your granny to suck eggs etc" It's when you find out how much these suits charge for a day is when you really feel hacked off t can remember a similar incident. I have been involved in customer facing jobs since I left school many years ago. During my time with National Express it was decided that I should attend a "Customer Care" course. It transpired that the course was going to being run by some "consultant" who it appeared had only just come out of nappies. We were all asked what sort of jobs we had had. When I replied I had spent about 25 years dealing with customers/passengers I think the consultant had wished the ground would open up and swallow her. |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 14, 2014 19:34:16 GMT
Yes, partners belong in John Wayne & Gary Cooper westerns, thanks. Along with cows, who eat grass, which is why Manuel Santana was never that bothered about Wimbledon, so he said.
Now, seminars-let's stray back to c.1999 & my Civil service days. We are being told to learn from the private sector. So, we extend the number of team meetings and start planning meetings as well, the latter replacing senior managers making a decision, even if coming up with strategic decisions is precisely what they are paid for.
Before long, we 'evolve' to pre-meeting meetings to effect planning, then split that into pre-meeting strategy meetings and pre-meeting expectation meetings. At this stage, work has yet to come to a juddering halt.
One day, a suggestion is made(I was there & heard it)-post-meeting meetings. The voice further suggested the senior management should effect the post-meeting debriefing. Then, on the basis of Career Development Opportunities(very big tick in buzzword of the millennium old & new box), junior staff should, on a rotational basis, hold post-meeting learning opportunities meetings, post-meeting operational suggestions meetings, post-meeting feedback formulation meetings and post-meeting planning for the next meeting meetings. All of this was said with a straight face.
Had this been from a mustard-keen junior management acolyte, it would have meant fast-track promotion. As it came from a different and rather unexpected source, senior management took it on board and claimed it as their own.
Which was mildly embarrassing three months later, as work throughput went through---------the floor.
The scale of the catastrophe was only truly realised a further six months on, and Whitehall, or its' equivalent in London, had to point out to senior management just how much time was being lost to totally pointless meetings and that senior management should have had more nous than to come up with such insane notions.
Motto-beware of listening to suggestions from staff who were told at the age of five they would never need to kiss the Blarney Stone, especially when you read that on their job application and you interviewed them, too, and should therefore have been aware it still held true forty-odd years on.
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 14, 2014 20:08:11 GMT
I detest it when my wife is referred to as 'your partner' I usually respond: "no this lady is my wife, we're not running a company". This is a difficult one. I spent last weekend enjoying my #BirthdayTour with the other person on my "two together" railcard. Whilst I fully respect the wives and husbands amongst us, and am completely in admiration of those who have been married for several years; I'm not married to the man I love, nor are we engaged, but calling him my 'boyfriend' sounds a little "teenage"? |
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 14, 2014 20:13:46 GMT
Yes, partners belong in John Wayne & Gary Cooper westerns, thanks. Along with cows, who eat grass, which is why Manuel Santana was never that bothered about Wimbledon, so he said.
Now, seminars-let's stray back to c.1999 & my Civil service days. We are being told to learn from the private sector. So, we extend the number of team meetings and start planning meetings as well, the latter replacing senior managers making a decision, even if coming up with strategic decisions is precisely what they are paid for.
Before long, we 'evolve' to pre-meeting meetings to effect planning, then split that into pre-meeting strategy meetings and pre-meeting expectation meetings. At this stage, work has yet to come to a juddering halt.
One day, a suggestion is made(I was there & heard it)-post-meeting meetings. The voice further suggested the senior management should effect the post-meeting debriefing. Then, on the basis of Career Development Opportunities(very big tick in buzzword of the millennium old & new box), junior staff should, on a rotational basis, hold post-meeting learning opportunities meetings, post-meeting operational suggestions meetings, post-meeting feedback formulation meetings and post-meeting planning for the next meeting meetings. All of this was said with a straight face.
Had this been from a mustard-keen junior management acolyte, it would have meant fast-track promotion. As it came from a different and rather unexpected source, senior management took it on board and claimed it as their own.
Which was mildly embarrassing three months later, as work throughput went through---------the floor.
The scale of the catastrophe was only truly realised a further six months on, and Whitehall, or its' equivalent in London, had to point out to senior management just how much time was being lost to totally pointless meetings and that senior management should have had more nous than to come up with such insane notions.
Motto-beware of listening to suggestions from staff who were told at the age of five they would never need to kiss the Blarney Stone, especially when you read that on their job application and you interviewed them, too, and should therefore have been aware it still held true forty-odd years on. They probably thought "Yes Minister" was a documentary! |
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 14, 2014 20:44:28 GMT
I detest it when my wife is referred to as 'your partner' I usually respond: "no this lady is my wife, we're not running a company". This is a difficult one. I spent last weekend enjoying my #BirthdayTour with the other person on my "two together" railcard. Whilst I fully respect the wives and husbands amongst us, and am completely in admiration of those who have been married for several years; I'm not married to the man I love, nor are we engaged, but calling him my 'boyfriend' sounds a little "teenage"? I appreciate your 'predicament?' if that's the right word. I have a very close friend I've known for 30+ years, and have seen him go thru' the whole gamut of others peoples perceptions, if you get my drift? Last May I was proud and honoured to be a guest when he and his partner held a civil ceremony, he now enjoys letting everyone know "we are partners" Before then any one who didn't know his 'stance' or where not as open minded as I hope most people are these days,he always referred to his partner as "this is my friend XXX" Enjoy life |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 14, 2014 21:02:17 GMT
I don't have such a big problem with things like "24/7" or "laters" because language is constantly evolving. After all, we no longer speak in the same way that we did in Shakespearean times. However, I would have a problem with it being used in written English though! (Puts on teacher hat!)
Anyway, I'd like to add "significant other" and "the long and short of it" to the list of cringeworthy phrases. . .
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 14, 2014 21:36:57 GMT
Significant Other was a decent album title, but that's as far as it goes.
Good job Peter Brown & Piblokto!/Battered Ornaments album titles didn't make their way into the language, though!
The long & the short of it is sizeist, if we decide to play them at their own PC games. So that's got rid of that one.
Partner is probably more loaded to older people, though I never had the slightest prejudice towards anyone who preferred using it, regardless of their actual situation.
The only broadbrush(Damn! I'm at it now) sorry, the only universal thing I can think of to replace it & upset as few people as possible, is suitable for the digital age, but is a bit New Age as well:
2R1
Still, it does have something, and it accurately says you are in a settled relationship.
Plus, if they then ask for further details, you can turn a dreaded phrase or two round on them:
On a need-to-know-basis, you are at the bottom of the knowledge food chain.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 14, 2014 21:52:26 GMT
I don't mind neologisms, but deprecate the devaluation of terms with precise meanings.
"Alternate" is not a synonym for "alternative" - think of alternating current
"third party" does not mean a contractor or other person outside the company - it means anyone not a party to an agreement (e.g neither the insured driver nor the insurance company)
"disinterested" means impartial, not uninterested
"prejudice" means to jump to a conclusion (pre-judge), not to cause harm
"guard" seems now to be used for any railway staff not actually driving a train
"anticipate" is not the same as "expect": it means to act on the assumption that something will happen, or as if it already has. Anticipating your marriage used to be frowned upon.
"due" instead of expect - TfL's Countdown system gets this wrong: the timetable says when a bus is due, the real time display says when it is actually expected: the difference is how late it is.
to "coin a phrase" means to invent a new expression/metaphor etc, not to use an existing one
I like the term "best beloved" to describe a partner/significant other/spouse. I didn't coin it though - I stole it from Rudyard Kipling's "Just So" stories.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 14, 2014 21:52:37 GMT
We might as well expand it to include meaningless & confusing phrases-not quite the same thing, but can be just as annoying.
For instance: part-time traffic signals.
Don't tell me you've never felt like asking them what their other job is? 
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gantshill
I had to change my profile pic!
Posts: 1,344
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Post by gantshill on Aug 14, 2014 21:56:04 GMT
Partner/boyfriend etc get even more complicated when my partner, as in lover, has a partner as in business. This can be a recipe for total confusion at times. But neither of us are passengers in our relationship. (To get this back on-topic).
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,223
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 14, 2014 22:11:38 GMT
But neither of us are passengers in our relationship. (To get this back on-topic). |
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Post by londonstuff on Aug 14, 2014 23:02:06 GMT
This is a difficult one. I spent last weekend enjoying my #BirthdayTour with the other person on my "two together" railcard. Whilst I fully respect the wives and husbands amongst us, and am completely in admiration of those who have been married for several years; I'm not married to the man I love, nor are we engaged, but calling him my 'boyfriend' sounds a little "teenage"? I appreciate your 'predicament?' if that's the right word. I have a very close friend I've known for 30+ years, and have seen him go thru' the whole gamut of others peoples perceptions, if you get my drift? Last May I was proud and honoured to be a guest when he and his partner held a civil ceremony, he now enjoys letting everyone know "we are partners" Before then any one who didn't know his 'stance' or where not as open minded as I hope most people are these days,he always referred to his partner as "this is my friend XXX" Enjoy life Gosh, I can't think of anything worse than introducing my lover as 'my friend' - it's so pre-1967 and I agree with Rincew1nd, I couldn't say 'boyfriend' as I'd probably burst out laughing. It's 'my partner' to those who would understand - those who probably wouldn't I just say 'This is x'. Mind you, I couldn't care less about anyone who doesn't approve in this day and age. Be happy, no matter who it's with. |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 15, 2014 9:58:33 GMT
Well, getting slightly back on track, we recently got a Two Together Railcard.
No need on applying for that to specify anything beyond first applicant & second applicant. Partners don't come into that one.
Now, ashlar's link to the Hackney Gazette & the newly-approved Hackney Downs link there caught my eye the other day & I didn't realise why until starting this thread.
Don't know who this image is by, the HG, Tfl,LOL or other, but:
I find it quite revealing. That shouts customers to me, and possibly someone who hasn't used the line in question, though they may be a passenger on other Tfl lines?
Or doesn't their edition of Coral Draw have many people images?
I hope it isn't a sort of shorthand or quasi-masonic code that says the suits have now conquered Hackney, too, and are even now on the march from that interchange  .
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Post by nickf on Aug 15, 2014 11:08:12 GMT
From time to time I am obliged to attend management seminars, in my role as a sound recordist, for the video that is being made. It is a popular pastime between the people making the video (cameramen, director etc) to relieve the monotony to play 'Managementspeak Bingo'. Each of us has a list of phrases and words such as those previously mentioned on this thread (and likely to be used during the seminar)and when one is used each crew member catches the eyes of the others and nods. When the final word is muttered the first one to put his hand up in the air wins.
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 15, 2014 12:45:34 GMT
From time to time I am obliged to attend management seminars, in my role as a sound recordist, for the video that is being made. It is a popular pastime between the people making the video (cameramen, director etc) to relieve the monotony to play 'Managementspeak Bingo'. Each of us has a list of phrases and words such as those previously mentioned on this thread (and likely to be used during the seminar)and when one is used each crew member catches the eyes of the others and nods. When the final word is muttered the first one to put his hand up in the air wins. Play it for a £1:00 a word or phrase, and you'd all be broke!  You should make a list when you hear: "Hello that's new, where did that come from?" |
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 15, 2014 12:58:49 GMT
I appreciate your 'predicament?' if that's the right word. I have a very close friend I've known for 30+ years, and have seen him go thru' the whole gamut of others peoples perceptions, if you get my drift? Last May I was proud and honoured to be a guest when he and his partner held a civil ceremony, he now enjoys letting everyone know "we are partners" Before then any one who didn't know his 'stance' or where not as open minded as I hope most people are these days,he always referred to his partner as "this is my friend XXX" Enjoy life Gosh, I can't think of anything worse than introducing my lover as 'my friend' - it's so pre-1967 and I agree with Rincew1nd, I couldn't say 'boyfriend' as I'd probably burst out laughing. It's 'my partner' to those who would understand - those who probably wouldn't I just say 'This is x'. Mind you, I couldn't care less about anyone who doesn't approve in this day and age. Be happy, no matter who it's with. It was my friends way of introducing his long time partner to strangers, neither of them seemed to mind. I'm glad to say a lot of his straight(sorry to use that word)friends are still his friends, and the turn out at their civil ceremony was a joy to behold. If only everyone else had the same attitude. We've come a long way from the days of Oscar Wilde, and before the law was changed there are incidences of famous actors who were blackmailed. Thank God that's long gone. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 13:19:58 GMT
We've come a long way from the days of Oscar Wilde, and before the law was changed there are incidences of famous actors who were blackmailed. Did you ever read The Ballad of Reading Gaol? (I mention it because he wrote it whilst incarcerated.) I recommend it to fans of Oscar Wilde, if you haven't read it. If you have, read it again  --- I prefer passenger, but mostly because I don't like what we might term 'corporate culture,' not because of any crusade against language change. |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 15, 2014 14:01:05 GMT
The last stanza of Oscar:
And all men kill the thing they love,
By all let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!
Oscar wrote it whilst in Reading Gaol, which was within a stone's throw of the railway, and no doubt inspired him.
Another aspect of the corporate could be platform/station announcements or posters/leaflets/pocket timetables.
As far as the former goes, my three trips to London in the last year, I don't recall, on LUL or NR, a single tannoy or even an electric signage using the c word, it always seemed to be passengers, even pre-recorded tannoys, but can't vouch for sure regarding posters etc. Looking at the wodge of Southern pocket timetables I got from East Croydon a few weeks back, both terms are used, but only for info about who to contact & no mention in footnotes of Passengers/customers are advised that anywhere.
In the TfL/LOL pocket timetable #4, the only mention beyond Southern's is to tell us that LOL has consistently scored high for customer satisfaction.
I must mention last October's station announcement coming up to exit Kings Cross St Pancras from the Northern Line, which reinforced an electric information sign about the current service on all lines. Passengers was used & the information was conveyed in a professional, thorough and yet friendly manner.
Probably helped by his opening gambit:
"Lissenup!"
Tottenham or Edmonton via Orange Street, Kingston, from the sound of it.
Absolutely brought a smile to everybody's face!
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