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Post by 35b on Jun 27, 2022 7:54:13 GMT
Agreed, but in this case block capitals are (a) in sympathy with the original installation and (b) arguably better, as to provide upper and lower case would make the text smaller because of the descenders. Fair point. I suppose it's better to have the wording readable at a greater distance, rather than very marginally easier when close to, especially when it's just a few words. It's not as if you've got to read a whole book in block caps. Unfortunately, this observer still thinks they’re not what they could or should be, heritage or otherwise. It’s good that they’ve been retained, but the inconsistent size and presentation of these is poor, and inconsistent with TfLs general commitment to consistency of signage.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jun 27, 2022 8:48:07 GMT
I should have also added that these signs are not the only source of information; there are also Dot Matrix signs on all four platforms which do use lower case lettering.
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Post by 35b on Jun 27, 2022 9:08:15 GMT
I should have also added that these signs are not the only source of information; there are also Dot Matrix signs on all four platforms which do use lower case lettering. Noted, understood, and part of the reason for the temperateness of my views.
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Post by Chris L on Jun 27, 2022 9:58:29 GMT
I should have also added that these signs are not the only source of information; there are also Dot Matrix signs on all four platforms which do use lower case lettering. Page 48 of this document makes interesting comparisons of size of lettering against viewing distance across different modes. www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/NR_GN_CIV_300_01_Wayfinding-Design-Module.pdfThe lettering on the dot matrix signs is far too small. Dot matrix technology has been overtaken by LED displays as on the Crossrail platforms and some Network Rail sites.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jun 27, 2022 14:11:19 GMT
Thanks for sharing that; it's a very interesting document. The BR Corporate Design Manual ancestry is clear!
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Jun 27, 2022 14:16:18 GMT
I also notice it's using the new RA2
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Post by Chris L on Jun 27, 2022 15:31:16 GMT
Thanks for sharing that; it's a very interesting document. The BR Corporate Design Manual ancestry is clear! The viewing distances also appear in the Underground Signing Manual which is a Category 1 standard which means it should be followed.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jun 27, 2022 16:22:13 GMT
Which standard is that? I'm aware of S1004 (Signage for Operational Purposes) and was a contributor to the last issue, but I can't seem to find one for passenger signage.
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Post by Chris L on Jun 27, 2022 17:44:56 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 27, 2022 23:17:26 GMT
Interesting that they have 'Upminster Line', rather than a specific destination. Presumably you just catch an 'Upminster Line' train and get off and wait for the next one that is going further if it stops too early for your requirements. Upminster line could include Plaistow, Dagenham East, Upminster and the Southend Corridor Express through train!
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Post by jimbo on Jun 28, 2022 4:31:51 GMT
I've never understood the logic of 'High Street (Ken) & Edgware Road' On that logic, shouldn't the first position be 'Charing Cross, Mansion House, Whitechapel & Bow Road' and so on for the others! Perhaps also including 'Stops Here' since most trains do to let people on and off!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jun 30, 2022 8:50:51 GMT
The arrow indicators are now working at Earls Court - and to my surprise that includes the first train out indicators on eastbound platforms 1&2.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 30, 2022 10:17:56 GMT
The arrow indicators are now working at Earls Court - and to my surprise that includes the first train out indicators on eastbound platforms 1&2.
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Post by uzairjubilee on Jun 30, 2022 10:31:51 GMT
While I never enjoy being too critical towards TfL, I do find it very odd that the describer on platform 3 states "OLYMPIA" whereas the one on platform 4 states "KENSINGTON (OLYMPIA)". (Mentioned by Dstock7080 on the previous page). I would have thought that 4 copies of each destination for the two platforms would have sufficed! I understand that this isn't a massive deal, but still can't get my head around how this has happened .
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Post by brooklynbound on Jun 30, 2022 12:30:31 GMT
I found a 1955 photo by Allan Hailstone online, you'll find it in his book "London, Portrait of a City, 1950 to 1962" It shows the westbound describer listing Olympia as KENSINGTON (OLYMPIA) on both platforms. Interestingly it has two versions of both Richmond and Wimbledon on each platform. It's hard to make out but I think the alternative versions say "not stopping at..." I do remember West Brompton being closed at the weekend back in the day. I've struggled to copy it on to here but it's on Allan's own feed at.... www.flickr.com/photos/allhails/2807620677/in/photostream/
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Post by d7666 on Jun 30, 2022 13:03:23 GMT
I found a 1955 photo by Allan Hailstone online, you'll find it in his book "London, Portrait of a City, 1950 to 1962" It shows the westbound describer listing Olympia as KENSINGTON (OLYMPIA) on both platforms. Interestingly it has two versions of both Richmond and Wimbledon on each platform. It's hard to make out but I think the alternative versions say "not stopping at..." I do remember West Brompton being closed at the weekend back in the day. I've struggled to copy it on to here but it's on Allan's own feed at.... www.flickr.com/photos/allhails/2807620677/in/photostream/Thanks. It does support then that variation in font size is "more heritager" (or however one words it) than what was last there until earlier this year, making the new, current version slightly more aligned with "heritage" but combined with a standard font. All other arguments notwithstanding, IMHO it is a good compromise between retaining a heritage item, meeting impaired visibility needs, and fit for purpose as a functioning passenger information display. One thing that might have been overlooked so far is that not only do visibility impaired persons have an expectation of train information displayed, they also have an expectation of visible access to heritage items; this dual feature needs to be considered amid the overall compromisation of font and size. ( Not had availability to follow up with colleagues who were involved with it. )
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Post by Chris L on Jun 30, 2022 13:14:46 GMT
I found a 1955 photo by Allan Hailstone online, you'll find it in his book "London, Portrait of a City, 1950 to 1962" It shows the westbound describer listing Olympia as KENSINGTON (OLYMPIA) on both platforms. Interestingly it has two versions of both Richmond and Wimbledon on each platform. It's hard to make out but I think the alternative versions say "not stopping at..." I do remember West Brompton being closed at the weekend back in the day. I've struggled to copy it on to here but it's on Allan's own feed at.... www.flickr.com/photos/allhails/2807620677/in/photostream/Thanks. It does support then that variation in font size is "more heritager" (or however one words it) than what was last there until earlier this year, making the new, current version slightly more aligned with "heritage" but combined with a standard font. All other arguments notwithstanding, IMHO it is a good compromise between retaining a heritage item, meeting impaired visibility needs, and fit for purpose as a functioning passenger information display. One thing that might have been overlooked so far is that not only do visibility impaired persons have an expectation of train information displayed, they also have an expectation of visible access to heritage items; this dual feature needs to be considered amid the overall compromisation of font and size. ( Not had availability to follow up with colleagues who were involved with it. ) Sorry but they should have retained the appearance on the date of listing. This has been applied across many station refurbishments. It just so happens that the spacing of the letters on the old panels is an assistance to everyone including those who are visually impaired. Going large is not a good option.
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Post by d7666 on Jun 30, 2022 13:23:26 GMT
Thanks. It does support then that variation in font size is "more heritager" (or however one words it) than what was last there until earlier this year, making the new, current version slightly more aligned with "heritage" but combined with a standard font. All other arguments notwithstanding, IMHO it is a good compromise between retaining a heritage item, meeting impaired visibility needs, and fit for purpose as a functioning passenger information display. One thing that might have been overlooked so far is that not only do visibility impaired persons have an expectation of train information displayed, they also have an expectation of visible access to heritage items; this dual feature needs to be considered amid the overall compromisation of font and size. ( Not had availability to follow up with colleagues who were involved with it. ) Sorry but they should have retained the appearance on the date of listing. This has been applied across many station refurbishments. It just so happens that the spacing of the letters on the old panels is an assistance to everyone including those who are visually impaired. Going large is not a good option. There are numeorus different visibility impairments. I do not think one can condemn or even dismiss this by a "one size fits all" statement based on a bureaucratic principle of a date of listing on a piece of paper.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 30, 2022 13:34:02 GMT
I found a 1955 photo by Allan Hailstone online, you'll find it in his book "London, Portrait of a City, 1950 to 1962" It shows the westbound describer listing Olympia as KENSINGTON (OLYMPIA) on both platforms. Interestingly it has two versions of both Richmond and Wimbledon on each platform. It's hard to make out but I think the alternative versions say "not stopping at..." I do remember West Brompton being closed at the weekend back in the day. I've struggled to copy it on to here but it's on Allan's own feed at.... www.flickr.com/photos/allhails/2807620677/in/photostream/Pic already posted in this thread: districtdavesforum.co.uk/post/179346/thread
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 30, 2022 13:56:51 GMT
Sorry but they should have retained the appearance on the date of listing. This has been applied across many station refurbishments. It just so happens that the spacing of the letters on the old panels is an assistance to everyone including those who are visually impaired. Going large is not a good option. The date of listing was 7 November 1984. What did it look like on that date, and why is that one date more important than any other date in its history?
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 30, 2022 15:54:40 GMT
I found a 1955 photo by Allan Hailstone online, you'll find it in his book "London, Portrait of a City, 1950 to 1962" It shows the westbound describer listing Olympia as KENSINGTON (OLYMPIA) on both platforms. Interestingly it has two versions of both Richmond and Wimbledon on each platform. It's hard to make out but I think the alternative versions say "not stopping at..." I do remember West Brompton being closed at the weekend back in the day. I've struggled to copy it on to here but it's on Allan's own feed at.... www.flickr.com/photos/allhails/2807620677/in/photostream/Colour photos showing these with 'not stopping at' destinations too are very rare, but I think they had a yellow background behind this text.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 30, 2022 16:28:31 GMT
Colour photos showing these with 'not stopping at' destinations too are very rare, but I think they had a yellow background behind this text. Indeed, yellow:
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Post by Chris L on Jun 30, 2022 16:49:17 GMT
Sorry but they should have retained the appearance on the date of listing. This has been applied across many station refurbishments. It just so happens that the spacing of the letters on the old panels is an assistance to everyone including those who are visually impaired. Going large is not a good option. The date of listing was 7 November 1984. What did it look like on that date, and why is that one date more important than any other date in its history? I don't make the rules but that is the way listing works. I did once have a meeting at Bow Road station with an American lady representing English Heritage. The proposal was to remove the roundel from the frontage and replace it with a post mounted roundel nearer the road that could be seen by intending passengers. She turned down the request. When I pointed out that the station was opened by the Whitechapel and Bow Railway so the roundel was a later addition she suggested it should revert to the original frontage. In the end we agreed to leave the roundel on the building even though it couldn't be seen from the road as this was what was required under the listing.
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Post by brigham on Jun 30, 2022 16:53:52 GMT
I would rather have kept 'Stops Here' than 'Not in Service', simply to avoid losing that particular shade of meaning. Nevertheless, it's good to see this type of indicator doing its job as part of the working railway environment. Gloucester Road next?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 1, 2022 14:43:42 GMT
I would rather have kept 'Stops Here' than 'Not in Service', simply to avoid losing that particular shade of meaning. Nevertheless, it's good to see this type of indicator doing its job as part of the working railway environment. Gloucester Road next? How then do you display a train that is running empty (literally not in service)? With only so many permutations possible due to the fact only 10 things can be displayed, a catch-all not in service display arguably makes more sense.
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Post by brigham on Jul 1, 2022 16:48:57 GMT
A train that runs through 'out-of-service' is not of interest to passengers. A train which arrives at a platform, and doesn't form part of an ongoing service, Stops Here. Simple, really.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 1, 2022 17:19:23 GMT
A train that runs through 'out-of-service' is not of interest to passengers. A train which arrives at a platform, and doesn't form part of an ongoing service, Stops Here. Simple, really. Yes indeed, a train that’s not in service is of no interest to waiting customers on the platform, but the PTI (platform train interface) is a very important part of the platform area. Us drivers want customers on the platform to be aware of our presence especially as we enter the platform area so displaying the not in service indication does help make such customers aware and aids in keeping that PTI clearer than it otherwise would be. Sometimes it’s about the bigger picture rather than the simple one you only see from one point of view.
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Post by brigham on Jul 2, 2022 7:46:08 GMT
I see these as historic artifacts, and I'm pleased to see them still playing a role in the daily operation of the station.
In the bigger scheme of things, it wouldn't matter if they were just left disused, as museum pieces, same as the now-obsolete station details shown on the front facade.
Thankfully, both still remain, and in the case of the train describers, in operating condition.
A bonus there, then.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Jul 2, 2022 16:43:03 GMT
Dstock7080 is exactly right with that colour photo
ALSO there were on the Eastbound at Earls Court as around 1960, similar signs were up for "Not stopping at Gloucester Road and South Kensington"
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 2, 2022 22:03:23 GMT
These train describers have made it to Twitter. The message linked here includes my reply but there were also some other replies (I can't link them all here!) Its not possible to edit Tweets once they have been posted - I should have got the bit about where trains rarely / no longer terminate the other way around twitter.com/citytransportin/status/ 1543310954347302914?s=20&t=gOPp-4KBkHUksw4BigpuDA
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