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Post by tjw on Oct 11, 2021 7:07:07 GMT
Also, I wonder how disability groups (especially those that deal with partially sighted people) feel about the new smaller displays. My thoughts are along the lines of something that could be read by the 'visually impaired' being replaced by something that is too small and hence much less easy to read by visually impaired people. Maybe though my thinking here is flawed and I am missing something? I am sure the new displays, are built according to the regulations... And the regulations are informed by the law that forced such things upon the railway. I am sure that these laws had the support of various disability groups, If this set up produces a less than desirable situation is a feature of the system not a bug. As we can now all carry in our pocket a box that can be modified to suit our needs, that can give us information as good or even better than the information supplied on such displays I do wonder why the railways are still fitting them. |
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Post by class411 on Oct 11, 2021 8:54:49 GMT
If this set up produces a less than desirable situation is a feature of the system not a bug. ROFLMAO. It may be a feature to the designers, but it's a bug to the users. The 'It's a feature' response was originally a humorous, light hearted, way for systems designers and builders to dismiss a bug amongst themselves - they knew it had to be corrected. Unfortunately it escaped into the wild and less responsible people used it to actually try and weasel out of correcting things that were not fit for purpose. Probably because they do not relish having to shut lines down every day to scrape people who were looking at their phones, instead of where they are going, off the tracks |
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Post by Chris L on Oct 11, 2021 9:04:40 GMT
There are standards for letter heights on such units on the railways in this country.
Recent installations across the Underground fail to meet the minimum letter height.
I reserve judgement on these.
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Post by Tom on Oct 11, 2021 17:42:27 GMT
It would only take time and effort if they wanted too but of course that would come at a cost which the project does not have. Indeed - I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of doing it wasn't justified for the limited residual life of the existing system. |
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Post by Tom on Oct 11, 2021 17:45:27 GMT
Also, I wonder how disability groups (especially those that deal with partially sighted people) feel about the new smaller displays. My thoughts are along the lines of something that could be read by the 'visually impaired' being replaced by something that is too small and hence much less easy to read by visually impaired people. I wouldn't count myself as Visually Impared but I am pretty short sighted. It's impossible to read these from any distance, and it's very difficult to try and work out what they're displaying from shapes and patterns, which I can do (or at least used to be able to do), for instance, with destination blinds on buses. The older signs, whilst much larger, were much easier to read. |
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Post by transportizm on Oct 17, 2021 18:18:39 GMT
These Destination boards will probably just say the next train and what time it is going to come at. They probably will not say the "via" sign or what platform.
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 17, 2021 18:49:43 GMT
I suspect they will say what platform, they will only display trains on the platform they are adjact to - just like the legacy ones do.
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Post by d7666 on Oct 18, 2021 14:00:34 GMT
Some of the wording in a couple of posts above is a little unclear.
W.R.T. Earls Court light boxes, these are being retained, in working order, and will work after SMA5 live. BUT - always a but - there will be a gap from SMA5 Day One of 2-3 weeks where they will be inoperative; this gap is deliberate, in case of need to roll back from SMA5 in event of it not being successful.
At SMA5 the light boxes become disconnected directly from the clockwork signalling system, but will then be driven via PLC as a pure comms information system (which of course in turn derives it's data feed from CBTC signalling system). This is what will be working after the 2-3 week gap.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2021 18:32:59 GMT
Some of the wording in a couple of posts above is a little unclear. W.R.T. Earls Court light boxes, these are being retained, in working order, and will work after SMA5 live. BUT - always a but - there will be a gap from SMA5 Day One of 2-3 weeks where they will be inoperative; this gap is deliberate, in case of need to roll back from SMA5 in event of it not being successful. At SMA5 the light boxes become disconnected directly from the clockwork signalling system, but will then be driven via PLC as a pure comms information system (which of course in turn derives it's data feed from CBTC signalling system). This is what will be working after the 2-3 week gap. Clockwork signalling  but it works It should be a easy task to bolt to the new equipment though |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 18, 2021 18:40:26 GMT
Programme machines controlling junctions were actual clockwork, but no longer after updating.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2021 22:46:18 GMT
Programme machines controlling junctions were actual clockwork, but no longer after updating. I know I have fixed enough of the bloody things in my time |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 25, 2022 15:34:52 GMT
<<Posts moved from 'SSR resignalling' thread - goldenarrow>>
Following the covering up in March 2022, the describers at Earl's Court have today been uncovered to reveal new plates/stickers, with different destinations in a new order and altered font sizes: Platforms 3 and 4 have differing treatment of "Olympia"! The illuminated arrows were working yesterday but were suppressed today, it's hoped these will return fully very soon.    prior to 2008:  2009 refurbishment: 
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Post by Chris L on Jun 25, 2022 16:02:51 GMT
There is no excuse for using a different font for the panels.
Any decent supplier could have recreated it including any new destinations.
The building is listed and this is a fundamental change.
Not sure why Mansion House remains.
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Post by jimbo on Jun 25, 2022 20:33:03 GMT
The separate sign for alternative rail route to Olympia makes me wonder if there will be any point in retaining the District Line service to Olympia once Lillie Bridge sidings are closed in a few years. Maybe it will be retained for empty reversal?
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Post by Tom on Jun 25, 2022 21:19:38 GMT
Not sure why Mansion House remains. It doesn't - the last photo is post-refurbishment of the signs and pre-resignalling. The new choice of EB destinations is: | UPMINSTER | NOT IN SERVICE | | DAGENHAM EAST | PLAISTOW | | BARKING | WEST HAM | | TOWER HILL | EMBANKMENT | | EDGWARE ROAD | HIGH STREET KENSINGTON |
I have to admit I preferred the earlier, condensed Johnston typeface with (mostly) consistent letter heights rather than this, which looks too heavy and a mix of sizes. I don't see why High Street Kensington couldn't have been HIGH STREET KENSINGTON like the old Edgware Road display, rather than the current presentation. Possibly a legibility issue from a distance maybe? Personally, I think the old 'STOPS HERE' should have been retained rather than Not in Service; as to show not in service for a reversing train that then arrives and opens its doors will only lead to confusion. If a train is not in service, then simply suppress it from the display and lists on the DMIs. It can be done - IDTS, which is a Thales product, does it in other countries. |
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Post by piccboy on Jun 25, 2022 22:13:48 GMT
The separate sign for alternative rail route to Olympia makes me wonder if there will be any point in retaining the District Line service to Olympia once Lillie Bridge sidings are closed in a few years. Maybe it will be retained for empty reversal? Olympia has always been useful as alternative destination during times of disruption on any of the District Line branches to the west. Also, possibility of using the current Depot access track and Whitely sidings as two additional stabling points, if required. |
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Post by Chris L on Jun 26, 2022 4:57:01 GMT
Not sure why Mansion House remains. It doesn't - the last photo is post-refurbishment of the signs and pre-resignalling. The new choice of EB destinations is: | UPMINSTER | NOT IN SERVICE | | DAGENHAM EAST | PLAISTOW | | BARKING | WEST HAM | | TOWER HILL | EMBANKMENT | | EDGWARE ROAD | HIGH STREET KENSINGTON |
I have to admit I preferred the earlier, condensed Johnston typeface with (mostly) consistent letter heights rather than this, which looks too heavy and a mix of sizes. I don't see why High Street Kensington couldn't have been HIGH STREET KENSINGTON like the old Edgware Road display, rather than the current presentation. Possibly a legibility issue from a distance maybe? Personally, I think the old 'STOPS HERE' should have been retained rather than Not in Service; as to show not in service for a reversing train that then arrives and opens its doors will only lead to confusion. If a train is not in service, then simply suppress it from the display and lists on the DMIs. It can be done - IDTS, which is a Thales product, does it in other countries. Thanks for the clarification about Mansion House. It would appear the project did not understand what listing means. The panels should have been retained or replicated. Over the years considerable time and effort went into preserving these displays. This included tracing the lettering to produce new artwork for replacement panels. English Heritage might be knocking on somebody's door. |
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Post by jimbo on Jun 26, 2022 5:26:05 GMT
The separate sign for alternative rail route to Olympia makes me wonder if there will be any point in retaining the District Line service to Olympia once Lillie Bridge sidings are closed in a few years. Maybe it will be retained for empty reversal? Olympia has always been useful as alternative destination during times of disruption on any of the District Line branches to the west. Also, possibility of using the current Depot access track and Whitely sidings as two additional stabling points, if required. Can't Whiteley's siding only be entered from the depot site, which is to be sold. The Depot access track will be retained for possible engineers train stabling and road/rail transfers for maintenance works. I believe the boundary will run along the current District Line route to West Kensington. |
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Post by d7666 on Jun 26, 2022 13:51:18 GMT
Personally, I think the old 'STOPS HERE' should have been retained rather than Not in Service; as to show not in service for a reversing train that then arrives and opens its doors will only lead to confusion. If a train is not in service, then simply suppress it from the display and lists on the DMIs. It can be done - IDTS, which is a Thales product, does it in other countries. I always thought STOPS HERE was at least not useful, if not confusing, to 'normal***' passengers. 'stops here' simply says that and imparts no more information - a through train in service from wherever to wherever also stops here. Thats what trains do, stop at stations. Normals*** think like that, they don't think in railway operating or engineering or anoracky terms. For a reversing train arriving to form a departure, it needs to reflect something like terminates here, or, ends here which is a bit terse but maybe space needs to be clear ? *** non-crank non-staff fare paying customers |
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Post by d7666 on Jun 26, 2022 14:00:25 GMT
There is no excuse for using a different font for the panels. Any decent supplier could have recreated it including any new destinations. The building is listed and this is a fundamental change. It would appear the project did not understand what listing means. You seem to be assuming both [1] the supplier is at fault and [2] the project is at fault. Do you have knowledge of all that ? The supplier almost certainly delivered to a specification. I will check, if I remember, with my colleagues who have been involved with this 'project' throughout, but fairly sure the entire 'project' has involved whatever body or bodies are involved with these things and will have been agreed the specification. And what do you mean by "different fonts" ? Do you mean changed from what was there before, or that the current has varying font sizes. I suspect, but my suspicion only, font and size are deliberate changes to meet visually impaired persons needs compliance. And the thing has to work and be fit for purpose. Lastly, is it known if the previous font there was original ? It might be that the current font face is actually reflecting an even older layout, and therefore more worthy of presence from a heritage view. |
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Post by Chris M on Jun 26, 2022 18:58:49 GMT
Also, being listed does not mean "no change is allowed" it means changes must be sympathetic to the original and should not harm or alter the listed features unnecessarily. The official list entry reads: You can see that the train describers are not specifically mentioned, however I would be extremely surprised if Listed Building Consent had not been sought for the changes. |
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Post by Chris M on Jun 26, 2022 19:02:07 GMT
Lastly, is it known if the previous font there was original ? It might be that the current font face is actually reflecting an even older layout, and therefore more worthy of presence from a heritage view. I'm far from an expert on fonts, but the one in the 1939 photo below looks different to that in the "pre 2008" photo above:  Credit: Earls Court Underground station, District and Piccadilly lines. Interior platform view by Topical Press, Jul 1939. www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/1998-53091 |
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Post by Colin on Jun 26, 2022 20:14:56 GMT
Also, possibility of using the current Depot access track and Whitely sidings as two additional stabling points, if required. My understanding of the plan when Lillie Bridge goes is that Whitelys siding will be lifted to enable road access to what's left of the current depot access road. The current depot access track will only be used for engineers trains and for on tracking access for road-rail vehicles. |
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Post by Chris L on Jun 26, 2022 20:34:42 GMT
There is no excuse for using a different font for the panels. Any decent supplier could have recreated it including any new destinations. The building is listed and this is a fundamental change. It would appear the project did not understand what listing means. You seem to be assuming both [1] the supplier is at fault and [2] the project is at fault. Do you have knowledge of all that ? The supplier almost certainly delivered to a specification. I will check, if I remember, with my colleagues who have been involved with this 'project' throughout, but fairly sure the entire 'project' has involved whatever body or bodies are involved with these things and will have been agreed the specification. And what do you mean by "different fonts" ? Do you mean changed from what was there before, or that the current has varying font sizes. I suspect, but my suspicion only, font and size are deliberate changes to meet visually impaired persons needs compliance. And the thing has to work and be fit for purpose. Lastly, is it known if the previous font there was original ? It might be that the current font face is actually reflecting an even older layout, and therefore more worthy of presence from a heritage view. I was working at Burnham Signs when replica plates were produced for one of the refurbishments in the 90s. The font used is nothing like the heritage displays. Bigger letters do not help legibility - there needs to be space between them. I spent a lot of my working life working with Underground signage (both in the Signs Unit and with suppliers) so I do understand what should have been done. |
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Post by Tom on Jun 26, 2022 21:34:20 GMT
Lastly, is it known if the previous font there was original ? It might be that the current font face is actually reflecting an even older layout, and therefore more worthy of presence from a heritage view. I'm far from an expert on fonts, but the one in the 1939 photo below looks different to that in the "pre 2008" photo above Indeed so, that font looks more like the one which was used pre-Johnston (which would make perfect sense as the signs are from about 1905 and Johnston didn't design his typeface for another ten years or so). There are a few signs still using it but they're very few and far between. The other thing that Chris L has hinted at, but not expressly said, is that it isn't just typefaces that make the difference; it's colour. It looks like the new plates have been done to the standard TfL blue (NCS S 4060-R80B for those into such things) whereas the original plates may well have been to a totally different standard altogether, such as BS381 for example. TfL know about such things as they have to consider it when providing 'heritage' signage during station refurbishments, but I wonder if the right people may not have been involved here. |
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Post by class411 on Jun 26, 2022 21:54:18 GMT
Lastly, is it known if the previous font there was original ? It might be that the current font face is actually reflecting an even older layout, and therefore more worthy of presence from a heritage view. I'm far from an expert on fonts, but the one in the 1939 photo below looks different to that in the "pre 2008" photo above: Credit: Earls Court Underground station, District and Piccadilly lines. Interior platform view by Topical Press, Jul 1939. www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/1998-53091Interesting that they have 'Upminster Line', rather than a specific destination. Presumably you just catch an 'Upminster Line' train and get off and wait for the next one that is going further if it stops too early for your requirements. |
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Post by class411 on Jun 26, 2022 21:57:11 GMT
Bigger letters do not help legibility - there needs to be space between them. It's generally accepted that lower case is easier to read, because we used the ascenders and descenders to recognise the shape of words. So why does LU insist on using block caps on fixed signs? |
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Post by Tom on Jun 26, 2022 22:01:08 GMT
Agreed, but in this case block capitals are (a) in sympathy with the original installation and (b) arguably better, as to provide upper and lower case would make the text smaller because of the descenders.
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Post by Chris L on Jun 27, 2022 4:29:08 GMT
Bigger letters do not help legibility - there needs to be space between them. It's generally accepted that lower case is easier to read, because we used the ascenders and descenders to recognise the shape of words. So why does LU insist on using block caps on fixed signs? The majority of signs on the Underground are in upper case and this has been the standard for new signs since the late 1980s. The main exceptions are platform friezes, the bars on roundels and canopy signage outside stations where, as Tom has explained, ascenders and descenders would reduce the letter height where the panel depth is fixed. |
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Post by class411 on Jun 27, 2022 7:46:13 GMT
Agreed, but in this case block capitals are (a) in sympathy with the original installation and (b) arguably better, as to provide upper and lower case would make the text smaller because of the descenders. Fair point. I suppose it's better to have the wording readable at a greater distance, rather than very marginally easier when close to, especially when it's just a few words. It's not as if you've got to read a whole book in block caps. |
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but it works 
