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Post by norbitonflyer on May 25, 2017 13:14:23 GMT
didn't the Swanage Line stay in BR(Southern Region) when the Western Region swallowed huge chunks of the Southern in 1964/5, which was when they(Western Region) started running the newly-transferred lines down for freight and for through runnings? . Yes, they did - but only west of Salisbury - which is why Warship diesels worked the Exeter line for many years. The Dorset coast line remained Southern though, all the way through to Dorchester South. |
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 16:45:48 GMT
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Post by pauluni on Jun 4, 2017 20:27:26 GMT
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Post by miff on Dec 17, 2017 19:50:49 GMT
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Post by pauluni on Dec 18, 2017 2:30:23 GMT
The latest Heritage Railway Magazine has some details of heritage trains next year. They are: - The two LT livered class 20s and a class 33 with the 4TC to Quainton Road on 29 April.
- Met 1 and Sarah Siddons between Ealing Broadway and High Street Kensington with 353 & the Chesham Set on 28 & 29 July. There is a possibility of a second steam loco.
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 21, 2017 0:26:17 GMT
The latest Heritage Railway Magazine has some details of heritage trains next year. They are: - The two LT livered class 20s and a class 33 with the 4TC to Quainton Road on 29 April.
- Met 1 and Sarah Siddons between Ealing Broadway and High Street Kensington with 353 & the Chesham Set on 28 & 29 July. There is a possibility of a second steam loco.
I hope they keep to these dates as I am going to plan ahead for other dates and will be mighty peeved if I then find a double booking! This especially applies to the Chesham Set visit to London. Simon |
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Post by MoreToJack on Dec 21, 2017 0:54:41 GMT
The latest Heritage Railway Magazine has some details of heritage trains next year. They are: - The two LT livered class 20s and a class 33 with the 4TC to Quainton Road on 29 April.
- Met 1 and Sarah Siddons between Ealing Broadway and High Street Kensington with 353 & the Chesham Set on 28 & 29 July. There is a possibility of a second steam loco.
I hope they keep to these dates as I am going to plan ahead for other dates and will be mighty peeved if I then find a double booking! This especially applies to the Chesham Set visit to London. Simon I'd apply caution based off the recent past. That publication has had a habit of prematurely publishing dates before things are confirmed. I don't know, however, at what planning stage these proposed runs are at. |
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Post by tjw on Dec 21, 2017 8:55:30 GMT
I hope they keep to these dates as I am going to plan ahead for other dates and will be mighty peeved if I then find a double booking! This especially applies to the Chesham Set visit to London. Simon I'd apply caution based off the recent past. That publication has had a habit of prematurely publishing dates before things are confirmed. I don't know, however, at what planning stage these proposed runs are at. The Ashbury carriages (Chesham set) need repairs to the door locks... hopefully this work will be finished if not they are unlikely to be travelling up to London. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Dec 21, 2017 10:34:30 GMT
Personally I think there could be real potential revenue benefit from operating Heritage services - provided LUL were able to think out of the box. Just remember every year thousands of people are happy to spend serious time and money to travel often long distances to visit a former quarry at Crich to enjoy a few hours trundling around in wonderfully restored trams. If such as et-up can be economic in such a remote location, surely something located within easy access from the biggest population centre in Britain can be viable if they start simple and build capacity as demand rises.
Earlier comments about the tube being increasingly busy are of course totally relevant.
So the only credible location for heritage service operations would be at the more extreme ends of the system and only on those sections which are or could be made effectively stand-alone and have plenty of spare capacity.
Sadly the most easy to develop route for heritage service has already been lost - the old Epping to Ongar route. The cost of reinstating 4 rail operation is so vast it will never happen. However at the far end of the Met their is potential.
The most obvious is the potential for a heritage shuttle from Chesham to Chalfont assuming the old 4 car siding has not been ripped up - indeed few commuters would be upset if daily operations switched completely to a more frequent shuttle operated by a pair of 4 car heritage units perhaps the 38 stock plus renovated A stock (if the former RAT is still viable) or even something loaned back from VivaRail. If these heritage operations were confined to an effectively isolated section of track, then the cost of TBTC roll-out on the line could be avoided. The interesting question is that if heritage operations were well marketed, it could significantly add to patronage not just at Chesham which apart from a few peak hours services is pretty derisory, but generate a lot of additional tourist trips along the Met to this little visited but beautiful part of Bucks.
I always feel saddened to see rolling stock becoming static museum exhibits. Proper conservation coupled with some donated parts would give LU Museum a place to be far more visible and potentially gain a lot more public engagement. This is of course one of these if you build it they will come decisions - In the current financial climate I doubt TFL/LUL have the bravery to commit to a blue-sky project like the people who established Crich did.
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Post by MoreToJack on Dec 21, 2017 13:45:57 GMT
The same Crich who's visitor numbers are declining year on year and are making considerable inroads into their reserves to stay afloat?
Better argument, please.
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Post by philthetube on Dec 21, 2017 14:01:34 GMT
Personally I think there could be real potential revenue benefit from operating Heritage services - provided LUL were able to think out of the box. Just remember every year thousands of people are happy to spend serious time and money to travel often long distances to visit a former quarry at Crich to enjoy a few hours trundling around in wonderfully restored trams. If such as et-up can be economic in such a remote location, surely something located within easy access from the biggest population centre in Britain can be viable if they start simple and build capacity as demand rises. Earlier comments about the tube being increasingly busy are of course totally relevant. So the only credible location for heritage service operations would be at the more extreme ends of the system and only on those sections which are or could be made effectively stand-alone and have plenty of spare capacity. Sadly the most easy to develop route for heritage service has already been lost - the old Epping to Ongar route. The cost of reinstating 4 rail operation is so vast it will never happen. However at the far end of the Met their is potential. The most obvious is the potential for a heritage shuttle from Chesham to Chalfont assuming the old 4 car siding has not been ripped up - indeed few commuters would be upset if daily operations switched completely to a more frequent shuttle operated by a pair of 4 car heritage units perhaps the 38 stock plus renovated A stock (if the former RAT is still viable) or even something loaned back from VivaRail. If these heritage operations were confined to an effectively isolated section of track, then the cost of TBTC roll-out on the line could be avoided. The interesting question is that if heritage operations were well marketed, it could significantly add to patronage not just at Chesham which apart from a few peak hours services is pretty derisory, but generate a lot of additional tourist trips along the Met to this little visited but beautiful part of Bucks. I always feel saddened to see rolling stock becoming static museum exhibits. Proper conservation coupled with some donated parts would give LU Museum a place to be far more visible and potentially gain a lot more public engagement. This is of course one of these if you build it they will come decisions - In the current financial climate I doubt TFL/LUL have the bravery to commit to a blue-sky project like the people who established Crich did. There would be no revenue benefit from running heritage stock in place of normal, it would not be possible to charge premium fares as it is, "a local service for local people" and costs would never allow money to be made on standard ones. Additionally there is no capacity on the Chesham branch to increase services, it is a single track which takes approx 10 mins end to end, unless you relay the siding at Chesham and find space for another at Chalfont half hourly is the best you could hope for |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 21, 2017 14:56:40 GMT
The same Crich who's visitor numbers are declining year on year and are making considerable inroads into their reserves to stay afloat? Better argument, please. Not to mention a six-hour operating day, which keeps labour costs down. What about the Croxley Green branch, which was four-rail for most of its life? (Runs away) |
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Post by ducatisti on Dec 21, 2017 15:37:18 GMT
It's good to think "outside the box" and have new ideas, but I'm afraid you aren't really comparing like with like. Any section of the line running as part of the LU network has to run to full LU rules. Crich is run largely by volunteers to a (I assume) a lesser degree of regulation under light railway or similar rules. Unless you closed the proposed branch completely, you would have to keep it to full LU standards and staffing levels.
I don't think you'd be allowed to put new live rail in anywhere for H&S reasons now.
A better analogy might by the STIB museum in Brussels that is allowed to take it's trams out on one of the less-used lines every weekend (and sometimes through the middle) - but I imagine it is much-better funded and in a country with a more laid-back approach to H&S.
none of it is impossible, save for the usual problem of money - which isn't getting any easier.
Plus, being honest, how many enthusiasts are there? yes, the museum can fill the 38 stock a few times a year, but would it really be able to fill a whole schedule all year round? And pay for the new sidings needed?
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 21, 2017 20:06:03 GMT
I'm assuming that there's a difference in extending an existing system, to setting up somewhere entirely new. Whether LU will ever move away from a 4 rail system is perhaps for another thread!
Much though it'd be nice to see, I cannot imagine such a venture being viable. The enthusiast market is finite; most visitors to the LTM are (were) tourists, and they would be unlikely to travel far outside of town to such a place.
Also, steam is the main attraction to tourist / non enthusiast visitors, surely. In my view, the only conceivable way this could have ever happened would have been if Epping Ongar had retained 4 rails, dealt with the H&S stipulations, and ran old tube stock (is the 60ts unit still around?) on occasion. Steam would still likely be what brought most visitors there, though.
That being said, it would be interesting to see how the Mail Rail bit of the postal museum goes - I must visit in the new year.
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Post by ducatisti on Dec 22, 2017 9:00:35 GMT
Getting back to topic for a moment. Are the battery locomotives compatible with the various new signallings? Would the way to go be to accept that a heritage train needs to have a battery loco in the consist somehow to talk to all the signals? and if they aren't at the moment, could the cost of getting one so compliant be something that LU could be persuaded into cost-sharing for spin-off benefits.
I assume it would be not outrageously expensive to paint one up in LU red
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Post by Chris M on Dec 22, 2017 9:42:51 GMT
In answer to Chris M - take your point about Grandfather rights only where used (although query what "used" in that context is - has the line been formally abandoned?) I'd have to check, but I think the line has been formally closed and the electricity on it certainly hasn't been switched on for many years so if anything is still there it would have to be ripped out and new put in - I can't imagine that being classed as grandfather rights and the new viaduct certainly could not get them. Sorry for going off topic - perhaps an admin might like to split the discussion about grandfather rights into a new thread/merge it with one about the Croxley link. «rincew1nd: Done, posts have been moved to this thread.» |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 22, 2017 9:46:44 GMT
I assume it would be not outrageously expensive to paint one up in LU red This is possibly the most realistic suggestion in this entire thread! One red battery loco doesn't make a heritage railway though. An issue with using battery locos would be availability. Chances are that your peak demand on a heritage service is going to be weekends and school holidays, which are also times when battery locos are going to be high demand for engineering works. |
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 22, 2017 21:28:43 GMT
I hope they keep to these dates as I am going to plan ahead for other dates and will be mighty peeved if I then find a double booking! This especially applies to the Chesham Set visit to London. Simon I'd apply caution based off the recent past. That publication has had a habit of prematurely publishing dates before things are confirmed. I don't know, however, at what planning stage these proposed runs are at. Yes I am aware of that possibility, it concerns me very much but within my family there will be a weekend event (most likely in August but could be a month either way) which will also need planning well in advance. At this stage (December 2017) I can influence its timing but once this has been set I'll be horrified if the date of the steam train is rescheduled to clash. |
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Post by br7mt on Dec 22, 2017 21:32:09 GMT
Using Battery Locos would present a few challenges:
- they would have to be on both ends of the train as SelTrac uses the VOBC antenna array to determine position, this would need it treating as an Engineers Train so you are immediately limited to 30 mph and a few other quirks;
- no method of coupling up to a subsurface gauge Wedgelock or Ward coupling;
- Tube height Wedgelock is for emergency use only and would need re-engineering to permit use with, say, the 38TS.
On the latter point two of the remaining four diesel powered Schomas may be more appropriate as they are fitted with Wedgelocks used for delivery of 95TS and 96TS. I think they have now been descoped from both JNP and SSR signalling.
A more viable solution would be to try and use the dual signalled Metropolitan Line section between Harrow and Amersham and put investment into making it flexible to transfer vehicles to and from it plus being able to use the turn back facilities properly.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by theblackferret on Dec 22, 2017 22:26:10 GMT
The same Crich who's visitor numbers are declining year on year and are making considerable inroads into their reserves to stay afloat? Better argument, please. Not to mention a six-hour operating day, which keeps labour costs down. What about the Croxley Green branch, which was four-rail for most of its life? (Runs away) Why not & take over the ruddy Croxley extension, too, whilst we are at it? At least it would finally get built.  Thinking outside the box, why bother with electric? Dual gauge track would let steam-hauled Met stock run again and could it be possible to either design a diesel-hauled Tube loco, or re-gauge a standard gauge diesel loco or six to drive the Tube stock? Now, this will need to be a fully-commercial service, say six trains an hour, one or two steam-hauled jobs out of that six, to pay for itself, but if it helps make a useful commuter link as well, it might just work. Think in tourist/enthusiast terms as well-The Tower Of London, for example, isn't limited to use for, say, 20 minutes out of every hour, and sitting doing nothing for the remaining two-thirds of the time-know it's an imprecise analogy, but it might, repeat might, be possible to have your cake and eat it, though it's gonna be an expensive Cafe Royal-style & price fondant fancy! |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 23, 2017 2:30:48 GMT
could it be possible to either design a diesel-hauled Tube loco, or re-gauge a standard gauge diesel loco or six to drive the Tube stock? I dare say that if Viva Rail can turn a D stock into a DMU then turning a tube-gauge car into a diesel loco should be possible. Whether it would be affordable on a realistic budget is a different question. |
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 23, 2017 9:48:03 GMT
I'd apply caution based off the recent past. That publication has had a habit of prematurely publishing dates before things are confirmed. I don't know, however, at what planning stage these proposed runs are at. Yes I am aware of that possibility, it concerns me very much but within my family there will be a weekend event (most likely in August but could be a month either way) which will also need planning well in advance. At this stage (December 2017) I can influence its timing but once this has been set I'll be horrified if the date of the steam train is rescheduled to clash. I'm sure that the relevant authorities will confirm details once they are set, but they cannot please everybody and, given that they publish planned disruption 6 months ahead of schedule, I imagine that is the time when things are more fixed. Somebody with more knowledge of the working of LU than I will doubtless be able to advise better, mind. It also must be remembered that these runs are secondary to the main purpose of LU (to move people) |
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Post by ducatisti on Dec 23, 2017 14:37:44 GMT
Using Battery Locos would present a few challenges: - they would have to be on both ends of the train as SelTrac uses the VOBC antenna array to determine position, this would need it treating as an Engineers Train so you are immediately limited to 30 mph and a few other quirks; - no method of coupling up to a subsurface gauge Wedgelock or Ward coupling; - Tube height Wedgelock is for emergency use only and would need re-engineering to permit use with, say, the 38TS. On the latter point two of the remaining four diesel powered Schomas may be more appropriate as they are fitted with Wedgelocks used for delivery of 95TS and 96TS. I think they have now been descoped from both JNP and SSR signalling. A more viable solution would be to try and use the dual signalled Metropolitan Line section between Harrow and Amersham and put investment into making it flexible to transfer vehicles to and from it plus being able to use the turn back facilities properly oh, that's a bother... I supppse their full-height couplings are for wagons only? would 30mph make a material difference (bearing in mind they could make up time by non-stopping)? I assume that lu wouldn't find the prospect of a "thunderbird" battery loco sufficiently useful to pay for it. |
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Post by miff on Dec 23, 2017 21:23:28 GMT
There is a preserved battery loco, but I don’t suppose the batteries have been charged for a very long time.
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Post by Chris W on Dec 23, 2017 22:03:26 GMT
I cannot speak for the LT Museum, nor for TfL/LU, however as part of my dealings with those who arrange these special heritage services, events take months to arrange as normal passenger services always take priority.
Heritage traction tends to be slower and more prone to defects, hence they operate on a day when they are less likely to inconvenience anyone should be worst happen... a Sunday.
If anyone has run an event, the highest charge is for manpower. Location and time is normally fixed, however staff more than double costs and this excludes delays and unexpected events. Enthusiasts might bulk at charges for tickets to counter these eventualities.
Any organiser knows that it's a fine line between charging too high a price for bells whistles, change livery (with manpower cost) and too low, meaning that you're out of pocket facing a financial loss as a result of locomotive or coaching stock failure that have caused delays, resulting in claims from normal everyday passengers.... you need to be able to be willing and able to take and pay for this risk / eventuality.
You will need to have everlasting deep pockets and under the financial cuts that they have faced, I do not believe the LTM has this luxury. Therefore you will need to be braver and richer than the LTM...
I am fortunate to be able to point anyone interested in funding these events, in the appropriate email address direction... so please PM me !
Events such as those suggested for 2018, take much planning. So when they happen, instead of cynicism or using blue sky 'what if / why not / how about' thinking, please support them in any way you can.
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Post by Tomcakes on Dec 24, 2017 0:38:23 GMT
I would also suggest that given the financial situation over the last coming on for 10 years, the fact that a programme of trips has been re-started and continues successfully is a credit to those involved in the relevant organisations.
And in such a climate, the moment one of these events has an overspend or causes disruption, eyebrows will be raised - and whilst there is undoubtedly top level support for them, that only goes so far!
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Post by pauluni on Feb 3, 2018 0:31:29 GMT
The 4TC will be visiting the Diesel Gala at Swanage Railway which is on 11-13 May. To get the 4TC to and from Swanage Railway there are a couple of railtours. They are: |
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Post by pauluni on Mar 15, 2018 15:34:28 GMT
Details of the class 20 trip to Quainton Road on 29th April are now up: www.ltmuseum.co.uk/whats-on/events-calendar/heritage-vehicles-outingsTickets are £65 for standard or £75 for first. Locos are 20142, 20227 & 33012. The 20s will be at the South end of the train. Route outward: Wembley Park - Quainton Road. Return: Quainton Road - Harrow-on-the-Hill - Marylebone (rev) - West Ruislip. |
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 2, 2018 20:04:48 GMT
The 4TC will be visiting the Diesel Gala at Swanage Railway which is on 11-13 May. To get the 4TC to and from Swanage Railway there are a couple of railtours. They are: On looking at the timings I guess that at Ealing Broadway the train will use the mainline station and travel via the GWML? Or will it travel via the District Line and reverse direction of travel at Earls Court? (perchance to dream). Simon |
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 2, 2018 22:44:01 GMT
Mainline station. The 4TC+mainline locos are not cleared along any part of the District.
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