Refurbs

Or it says what standard of maintenance they've received through their lives. For many years there was chronic underinvestment in the underground, so why would maintenance be any different. The old stocks were built to last but also there wasn't a need to skimp on caring for them.

Its most likely a combination of both.

The door chimes are the funny bits, you hear the hiss of air, then a 465/2 style door closing alarm which "tickled" me the first time I experienced it.

And how much did Chiswick works cost to run? Probably a darn sight more than refurbing a fleet once in forty years. If you look at it another way, the much praised better stocks (1938, etc) were in effect refurbed every five years - whereas the modern stocks are done once in their 40 year life. So which is better built?

The D stock refurb was always intended to be a cheap fix affair, simply because of the expected lifespan. As for the dot matrix and audible announcements (which as DD says, is not cab intrusive), why shouldn't we cater for those less able?

Edit: read Acton instead of Chiswick, above

Chiswick Works was the BUS works

I'm going to take issue with you over this as I'm afraid it is written from a pretty narrow minded view point, particularly from someone of your age IMHO.

Whilst I have some sympathy with the point that the EU can be a little domineering in many areas with it's directives, the point of recent legislation aimed to help those with disabilities as it affects not only transport but wider society too (so effectively the shops, pubs etc. that you've included above) is a case apart.

Much of the point of the legislation is not just aimed at individuals as 'consumers'; much is intended to enable people with a disability to become more fully integrated members of our society, and that includes allowing them reasonable facilities to work. So, on this last premise, the adaption of public transport enables them to be commuters too.

Wheelchair access is only when aspect of this though. Don't forget that there are many, many people with a disability which at a passing glance you would not be aware of!

If you want Chapter and Verse on this I would point you towards the Disability Discrimination Act which came into effect in October 2004.

And effectively, yes this DOES mean that every shop and public premise WILL have to adapt to allow equal access. That is the short version, of course.

But - more importantly - it also protects the rights of workers who become disabled to enable them to continue working; an employer can no longer simply get rid of a person because they have (for want of a better word) contracted a disability. Of course there are different scenarios associated to this and it will depend on the type of occupation in which they were employed.

I find too your concept that the disabled don't drink to be utter nonsense! I know that this is simply not true! If you want me to point you to a pub in the London area that sees the meeting of a group of people with a disability - some of whom are in wheelchairs, but many of whom are not - I will happily do so!

Consider too that it is quite probable that of members here there may too be a number with disabilities and I'm sure they will be able to expand on this comment, should they wish to do so.

But, in closing, I have some personal experience of people living with a disability, and I know that this forum is occasionally visited by at least one of these! So be warned - you could well have some responses from people who are in a personal position to respond to this. I'm afraid that they are likely to be less sympathetic in their replies to you than I have been!

To an extent I agree with Q8 - it seems a bit stupid to refurb a whole fleet that will work for about 10 years. For something like the 67/72 stock which would be working 20+ years after refurb I could understand it. I've never seen a refurbed D "in the flesh" yet so I can't really comment but they do seem to brighten the train up immensely - look at the 73ts.

Edit: as to the DDA there is the lawyer's favourite word in it - "reasonable". Therefore there is in theory a distinction between (say) a large chain shop which has the money to spend on ramps and lifts and a little corner shop that doesn't. That said some things can cost little like a removable ramp or just getting staff to help. In LU terms, it's probarbly "reasonable" to think of the disabled when redesigning a station or building anew, but not reasonable to equip every deep level station with lifts out of the blue (think, say, of Waterloo Bakerloo). And it's not nescesarilly the EU behind it, it's a UK Act of Parliament. Though to an extent since all London buses are 20 minutes old and thus fully DDA compliant it might be less of an issue.

Yes it is unreasonable to require LU to install lifts at all its deep level stations, but they are doing what is reasonable - for example the lifts at Earl's Court district, the livery adjustment, and even marking on the line maps which stations are wheelchair accessible - all this is a Good Thing and what the DDA intended to do.
I don't travel on the tube much, but just yesterday I saw two different disabled people travelling.

A gentleman got on the Bakerloo Line at Edgware Road with a lot of difficulty, he was walking with a stick and it looked like he had limited mobility on his left side. He managed to get on and with a little bit of help from fellow passengers to stop him falling over when the train started before he got to his seat, he managed it. I got off before he did, but I assume that he was able to complete his journey on LU.

The second person I saw was a lady who looked very distinguished, who I think was either blind or nearly so. This lady was helped onto the District Line train at either Becontree or Upney by a member of station staff. He then informed the driver that she was being met at Monument and asked that they annouce that station clearly and make sure she was off before departing.

In terms of wheelchair access, more people in wheelchairs will travel by tube as more journeys become possible. For example at Paddington the installation of a lift from the H&C platforms to the bridge (and possibly making one of the ticket barrier channels slightly wider) would make that station fully accessible (there is lift from the bridge to platform 1 of the mainline station, and I think there is a ramp down to platform 8/9). My guess is that this will be done next time it is that station's turn to receive a bit of money. The circle/district line station at Paddington would require a bit more work, but the outer rail platform would just require a lift down from the mainline concourse. Building it would bring a bit of disruption, but not huge amounts, and I think with a little re-arranging of The Lawn area there is plenty of space.
The Outer Rail would be harder, but not impossible, requiring a bit of structural work - see this diagram I made some time ago.

At some sites, it will never be reasonable to make the station fully accessible, and it is not reasonable to force LU (or anyone) to do everything at once.

However, all in all, the DDA is a Good Thing.

well i saw one at EBDY yesterday as i whisked through on a FGW service

Oh, and for the record, I've ridden on a number of refurbs as a passenger (should that be customer?) and I'm impressed (apart from the window frames that have been put back covered in grime...! why???), the comfort, cleanliness, noise levels and ride quality are all greatly improved, a good job done I reckon

Folks - all!!!!

I know we have these 'encounters' from time to time - it's the nature of the beast!

We all hold views and often there is neither 'right' or 'wrong' - they're views 'we' hold and it's not often easy to see the options.

But - as has been said - let's not get 'personal' (easy said I know); that's where these forums can get lost in almost irrelevant detail!

Don't misunderstand - I (we!) don't want to suppress genuine discussion, but as as I say the personal differences are not helpful!

Take a deep breath and step back a little please?

(Trys to pour oil on troubled waters!!)

Apparently so! Having spoken to one of the project staff, she confirmed that it was set at approx 20 secs after the train left a station, as it had to account for Cannon Street to/from Monument/Mansion House. It seems the way it was designed is purely based on times from the START of the announcements, except for the inter-station announcements which are based on the time from the train moving off. As such, it is NOT based on wheel revolutions, but just on timings I have been assured that they will NOT be using the same method of approach for the S stock ;D

Car 7099 (presumably part of Train12 going away today), has become stuck on the NB M40 by Junction7!
It seems the tractor unit has failed, as two tractors were in front of the low-loader on the hard shoulder.

Right - if there are any more posts in this thread that are considered to be inflammatory in any way, in the opinion of any of the staff, this thread will be locked, and the members concerned will be placed on a formal warning. This is NOT the place to carry out personal feuds. As has already been pointed out by Colin, we all have differences of opinion, and there may be personality clashes, but these will not be tolerated in the main boards if they become inflammatory or derogatory

Would it not be a better idea to put a unit on the tunnel wall/in the four foot a certain distance from the station, and a reader on the the train? That way if there is a 30 second or 5 minute journey time to the next station you get the announcement shortly before you arrive.