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Post by Chris W on Apr 17, 2008 12:21:37 GMT
Its interesting to note that its not just railway photographers who are having problems taking photos - see a report from the BBC news website today of the paranoia that British society has found itself in regarding lost/eroded freedoms: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7351252.stmOne interesting quotation from that article relating to media photography I'd like to highlight: Does that mean that IF a Police Officer/Security Guard etc. asks/tells a member of the public to delete images, that they MUST similarly have a court order??!!!  Any budding layers/solicitors amongst our membership who can advise  |
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Post by Chris M on Apr 17, 2008 12:30:01 GMT
Also, what is the law regarding the right of police / security guards to confiscate personal property? If they can't confiscate the images, can they confiscate the camera?
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Post by cetacean on Apr 17, 2008 13:58:25 GMT
Not a lawyer, but my understanding is they can ask but you have no obligation to do it. If they're the police and they suspect you of something, they can of course arrest you and possibly confiscate your equipment as evidence, but that's about it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2008 20:32:03 GMT
I had this issue today when I visited T5. As part of my flickr collection I've been taking pictures of all station roundels. As I was taking pictures I got shouted at and told I wasn't allowed to use a camera. Might help if they actually bored to put signs up saying so instead of screaming what could be considered to be insulting words as someone innocently taking images as a part of his hobby.
The one thought I had was by the time the guy had stopped me I'd already taken the shots I wanted.
Now people might say oh its because of the terrorist threat. How? The images I was taking are copies of one released by BAA or LU and have been in magazines and website before. I wanted my own for my flickr page so I didn't use copy righted material as a responsible person does. What's next, you would be allowed to take any pictures anywhere as you could take a picture of someones car as they zoom by? Hmmmmmmmm.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2008 20:34:40 GMT
I had a row with the ill-informed SS at Roding Valley, who informed me that it was illegal to take photographs on the tube. Having waited to take my photo...  ... I wasn't going to be put off by his nonsense. I politely asked him to go and check his conditions of carriage and contact his GSM. He wandered off and I got my photo! I think that since 7/7, it has given every jobsworth on LU the chance to bully enthusiasts. I was similarly challenged by a District Driver at Ealing Broadway in January. I got my photo there as well! I will not be bullied by these people, as I follow the rules set out by LU |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2008 20:41:22 GMT
Further to my comments above, I DO think it is time for a 'photographers permit' to be issued by LU. Photography has been banned on the New York Subway, if we don't stand up to these morons who use the terror threat to attack enthusiasts. Do they really think that potential terrorists are going to openly wander around taking photos of the system? Of course they aren't, it's just an excuse to make it look as if something is being done.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 17, 2008 21:09:48 GMT
i've been out and about photograping stations in north London today. The only comment I had was from the station assistant (or whatver the LO equivalent job title is) at Harringay Green Lanes. he we so intent on telling me that I shouldn't be taking photos of stations that I completely forgot to touch in  |
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Post by Tubeboy on Apr 17, 2008 21:19:57 GMT
i've been out and about photograping stations in north London today. The only comment I had was from the station assistant (or whatver the LO equivalent job title is) at Harringay Green Lanes. he we so intent on telling me that I shouldn't be taking photos of stations that I completely forgot to touch in LO do call them station assistants, thery get 8k per annum less than their tube counterparts! |
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Post by Tom on Apr 17, 2008 22:03:55 GMT
I had this issue today when I visited T5. As part of my flickr collection I've been taking pictures of all station roundels. As I was taking pictures I got shouted at and told I wasn't allowed to use a camera. Might help if they actually bored to put signs up saying so instead of screaming what could be considered to be insulting words as someone innocently taking images as a part of his hobby. T5 is the only site where photography is banned (as it comes under BAA rules). There are signs, but only at the entrance to the platforms from the ticket hall... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2008 22:54:28 GMT
Further to my comments above, I DO think it is time for a 'photographers permit' to be issued by LU. Photography has been banned on the New York Subway, if we don't stand up to these morons who use the terror threat to attack enthusiasts. Do they really think that potential terrorists are going to openly wander around taking photos of the system? Of course they aren't, it's just an excuse to make it look as if something is being done. Actually, it hasn't been banned on the NY subway. |
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Post by Chris M on Apr 18, 2008 0:34:44 GMT
T5 is the only site where photography is banned (as it comes under BAA rules). There are signs, but only at the entrance to the platforms from the ticket hall... I can't say that I saw them when I was taking photographs there. MRFS and I were asked if we were OK by station staff, but not stopped from taking photographs. My worst experience, as I've mentioned before, was at Fenchurch Street where I was told I needed advanced written permission from Network Rail and effectively escorted off the station. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2008 0:53:57 GMT
I had this issue today when I visited T5. As part of my flickr collection I've been taking pictures of all station roundels. As I was taking pictures I got shouted at and told I wasn't allowed to use a camera. Might help if they actually bored to put signs up saying so instead of screaming what could be considered to be insulting words as someone innocently taking images as a part of his hobby. The one thought I had was by the time the guy had stopped me I'd already taken the shots I wanted. Now people might say oh its because of the terrorist threat. How? The images I was taking are copies of one released by BAA or LU and have been in magazines and website before. I wanted my own for my flickr page so I didn't use copy righted material as a responsible person does. What's next, you would be allowed to take any pictures anywhere as you could take a picture of someones car as they zoom by? Hmmmmmmmm. Hmm, there were signs in the T5 stations relating to photography... Will raise that issue next time I'm in...  BAA/Heathrow Express are exempt from National Rail/LUL guidelines when relating to photography, and therefore, quite simply, no photography is allowed on the trains or in the stations at Heathrow without prior permission sought from Heathrow Express. Which then includes signing in with the Heathrow Express Control Room and then obtaining permission from the station manager on duty. Staff/managers are told to let anyone know if they are doing it when they shouldn't be, and ask them to stop, however 95%, including myself, don't usually do anything. But, I have got a lot stricter recently as I have had to tell some people countless times to stop using flash, and have even got the manager to evict one person out of the station for still doing it as a train was coming in (after many announcements).  Why this is like this I have no idea, however its what BAA want, and it should be followed as its their property. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2008 22:11:24 GMT
Further to my comments above, I DO think it is time for a 'photographers permit' to be issued by LU. Photography has been banned on the New York Subway, if we don't stand up to these morons who use the terror threat to attack enthusiasts. Do they really think that potential terrorists are going to openly wander around taking photos of the system? Of course they aren't, it's just an excuse to make it look as if something is being done. Actually, it hasn't been banned on the NY subway. That is correct, photography is not banned on the NYC subway. We've had a recent problem in Brisbane, where again photography is not banned, but some badly trained transit officers think it is. www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23553587-3102,00.html |
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Post by Chris W on Apr 19, 2008 19:04:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2008 21:08:18 GMT
Thanks for your interesting research, Chris. As I've said already, the terror threat, perceived or otherwise, is being used by every bone-headed security guard or fascist policeman to pick on the gentler members of society. Meanwhile, real terrorists enjoy unrivaled protection from the Human Rights Act, and other such nonsense. As to my comments about photography being banned by MTA on the New York Subway; I'm sure that I read it on an enthusiasts site about the New York Subway. A PDF of TfL's conditions of carriage can be found here |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2008 23:36:54 GMT
As to my comments about photography being banned by MTA on the New York Subway; I'm sure that I read it on an enthusiasts site about the New York Subway. The MTA wanted to ban photography a few years ago, but changed their mind after much protest. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2008 6:44:46 GMT
How long before TfL try a similar move, in the name of anti-terrorist measures?
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 20, 2008 7:43:11 GMT
Thanks for your interesting research, Chris. As I've said already, the terror threat, perceived or otherwise, is being used by every bone-headed security guard or fascist policeman to pick on the gentler members of society. Meanwhile, real terrorists enjoy unrivaled protection from the Human Rights Act, and other such nonsense. As to my comments about photography being banned by MTA on the New York Subway; I'm sure that I read it on an enthusiasts site about the New York Subway. A PDF of TfL's conditions of carriage can be found hereI couldn't agree more, we have an incompetent government and have had a succession of incompetent Home Secretaries including the latest one who is worse than her predecessors. Unfortunately the masses really have become accepting sheep ruled by fear. I actually gave up taking my camera out a year ago having been fed up of being accosted in bus stations and elsewhere when simply taking pictures of buses. Believe it or not I was even accosted taking photos of new ductwork and soon to be buried underground cables in the village where I live when all the electrical feeders were being renewed. Street furniture was in fact my main hobby until then. These days I do my bit for the fight against global warning by staying at home and not using the car, actually I can hardly afford to use it now with the increases in petrol prices and the cut of the 10p tax rate which will bite twice as much as the £100 increase in council tax and half as much as the increase in the price of heating oil while my TfL pension of <£10K gross pa sees a meagre cost of living increase. Apologies for being OT but quite honestly the mismanagement of just about anything and everything by officials from the PM down to the uniformed minions is wearing me down and I don't think I'm alone. There is no pleasure anymore in taking a camera anywhere, in fact it has become a liability just not worth the hassle. |
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Post by compsci on Apr 20, 2008 7:44:32 GMT
When I was over in New York I was initially very cautious about taking photographs as I had heard all sorts of stories about people being arrested etc.
In the end I didn't have any problems at all, and in my last week ended up wandering all over the (public areas of) Coney Island station without any staff taking the slightest bit of notice of me. However, I did mostly avoid the stations in the "sensitive" bits of Manhatten, which for the most part aren't especially photogenic anyway.
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Post by cetacean on Apr 20, 2008 8:03:52 GMT
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Post by Tomcakes on Apr 20, 2008 14:47:04 GMT
The companies may be, but the staff remain very misinformed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 12:15:47 GMT
This is serious stuffI e-mailed the film unit about photography on LU, this was my e-mail:
Hi,
I have been photographing trains and stations on the London Underground for the last twenty years. It is purely a hobby, and I do not profit from, or sell, any of the photographs I have taken.
I have recently been challenged by platform and trains staff on a few occaisions, even being told by one Station Supervisor that "photography is illegal on LU"!
I do not use flash EVER, nor a tripod, just a DSLR camera. If platform staff are around, I always ask permission from them.
The point of my e-mail is to ask wether there could now be some form of identification for enthusiast photographers like me, who are too old for a student pass (I carry my driving licence as ID). Or, do I just carry on taking photographs as before.
Kind Regards,
David HendersonThis was their reply:
Hello David,
Thank you for your email.
To take photographs on the Underground without a permit is illegal. A permit is required for Health & Safety reasons and London Underground is private property.
A Student Permit caters for people like yourselves who would like to take pictures for personal use. Please log on to our website where you will find information on how to go about obtaining a permit and feel free to contact me should you require any further information
Kindest regards
Andrea Russell
LU Film Office|London Underground Limited|11th Floor, Albany House, London SW1H 0BD
( T: (020) 7918 3929 (Internal 43929)
www.tfl.gov.uk/filmingI am about to ring the film unit to ask for clarification. I want to know which by-laws etc make it illegal. The permit is just for students, as you need to prove what course/ project you are doing before the permit will be issued. Besides that, it is £30 per month according to the TfL site.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 12:35:23 GMT
This sounds pretty odd, you have to pay in order to make something not be illegal! Sounds like BSkyB and bribery to me.
If its not published online or in public as to why it is illegal I'd say it's just an excuse by someone who doesn't know the real situation!
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 22, 2008 12:49:42 GMT
This is serious stuffI e-mailed the film unit about photography on LU, this was my e-mail:
Hi,
I have been photographing trains and stations on the London Underground for the last twenty years. It is purely a hobby, and I do not profit from, or sell, any of the photographs I have taken.
I have recently been challenged by platform and trains staff on a few occaisions, even being told by one Station Supervisor that "photography is illegal on LU"!
I do not use flash EVER, nor a tripod, just a DSLR camera. If platform staff are around, I always ask permission from them.
The point of my e-mail is to ask wether there could now be some form of identification for enthusiast photographers like me, who are too old for a student pass (I carry my driving licence as ID). Or, do I just carry on taking photographs as before.
Kind Regards,
David HendersonThis was their reply:
Hello David,
Thank you for your email.
To take photographs on the Underground without a permit is illegal. A permit is required for Health & Safety reasons and London Underground is private property.
A Student Permit caters for people like yourselves who would like to take pictures for personal use. Please log on to our website where you will find information on how to go about obtaining a permit and feel free to contact me should you require any further information
Kindest regards
Andrea Russell
LU Film Office|London Underground Limited|11th Floor, Albany House, London SW1H 0BD
( T: (020) 7918 3929 (Internal 43929)
www.tfl.gov.uk/filmingI am about to ring the film unit to ask for clarification. I want to know which by-laws etc make it illegal. The permit is just for students, as you need to prove what course/ project you are doing before the permit will be issued. Besides that, it is £30 per month according to the TfL site. David unless the rules have recently changed that is simply beeper sentex from a minion who either does not know or who has deliberately chosen to misinterpret the rules. Providing that you do not use flash and that you do not endanger either yourself or others photography is allowed as long as it is for personal use. Flash photography has always been forbidden in traffic hours even for staff in the execution of their duty! The only time that a private individual needed to contact the LU Film Office to seek a permit or otherwise seek permission to take photographs was for commercial purposes, to film outside traffic hours or where the use of tripod, flash etc was required in traffic hours in non-public areas. This information used to be regularly printed in the traffic circular so that all staff knew and understood the rules about photography. As I mentioned earlier I leave my cameras at home now even though I live 150 miles from London because everyone in the countryside is becoming paranoid too. This is what you get with incompetents running the country, fear of terrorism, fear of global warming, the 'health & safety' culture, the 'data protection' regime, unparallelled numbers of PNC & CRB checks and now fear of photography! Perhaps you might ask the film unit what the rules about staff taking pictures on and off duty might be! |
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Post by railtechnician on Apr 22, 2008 13:02:20 GMT
Really? The guidelines do not make that point. In any case most people taking photos on stations are passengers in possession of a valid ticket so why should they sign in? Further, if tourists or indeed staff want to take the odd snap shouldn't they be required to sign in as well. I have mates on the mainline who have their cameras with them at all times just as many of the members of DD appear to. I certainly used to have my camera with me more often than not when I worked for LUL. As for taking pics of security cameras that is beeper sentex, there is nothing to be gleaned from a photo of a security camera that cannot be found out elsewhere if someone really wants to know. The locations of such cameras are meaningless because although they are there to reassure the public and to perform basic surveillance there is also covert surveillance wherever it is required and that applies not only to the CCTV but to all the available comms systems in use too! |
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Post by North End on Apr 22, 2008 15:12:11 GMT
This is serious stuffI am about to ring the film unit to ask for clarification. I want to know which by-laws etc make it illegal. The permit is just for students, as you need to prove what course/ project you are doing before the permit will be issued. Besides that, it is £30 per month according to the TfL site. I'd love to see their justification for the reply. Certainly in the training material for Station Supervisors, it is still made clear that photography for personal use IS allowed, subject to the usual rules about flash etc. This is certainly what I enforce at my stations, and on the few occasions I've dealt with persons using flash (normally tourists) I make a point of stressing that they're very welcome to use their camera so long as the flash is switched off/covered up etc. |
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Post by Chris M on Apr 22, 2008 18:05:08 GMT
Regarding signing in, common sense should be applied.
If you are just taking a few photos as you pass through the station and aren't getting in anyone's way then I can't see the point in signing in.
On the other hand, if you are going to be hanging around for a while and/or going into odd areas then it is best to sign in so that staff know what you're doing and why.
That said, I asked at Queensway the other day if they'd like me to sign in and after clarifying that I knew the "no flash, no tripods and try not to get in the way" rules, the staff member told me I didn't need to "on this occasion".
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Post by Tomcakes on Apr 22, 2008 18:17:50 GMT
Regarding signing in, common sense should be applied. If you are just taking a few photos as you pass through the station and aren't getting in anyone's way then I can't see the point in signing in. On the other hand, if you are going to be hanging around for a while and/or going into odd areas then it is best to sign in so that staff know what you're doing and why. This is the approach I take. 99% of the time when I am photo-taking, I am doing so because I'm making a journey for which I have a valid ticket (and any member of staff is welcome to see it), and I happen to see something of interest. Or perhaps I am waiting for a while at a station thanks to the rubbish coordination between timetables and hence long connection times *cough* Retto *cough*, so take a few snaps. On such occasions, it would be silly to sign in (they're not going to stop people with camera phones are they? I have lots of friends who have no interest in the railways but take photos of themselves / their friends / other things of itnerest on stations). If, however, I am going to be hanging around and don't have a ticket, I will ask for a platform ticket (I have been told "Platform ticket? What's one of them then?" by an assistant before, mind...) and make the assistant aware. I suspect that our friend Andrea is talking out of her rectum. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 18:38:16 GMT
The answer provided by the film unit person is WRONG.
We all (as LUL staff) abide by a common set of rules and regulations, including the by-laws. Changes to them need to be notified to all staff.
There has been no change to the rules on this subject notified to me, thus any LUL staff here can confirm the position as per the previous discussions on the subject.
Given that the official position was reminded to all staff in several consecutive issues of the traffic circular last year, there is no excuse for these continued incorrect interpretations - perhaps The Film Office don't get / read the Traffic Circular.
I agree with Railtechnician.
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Post by Tubeboy on Apr 22, 2008 18:45:30 GMT
The answer provided by the film unit person is WRONG. We all (as LUL staff) abide by a common set of rules and regulations, including the by-laws. Changes to them need to be notified to all staff. There has been no change to the rules on this subject notified to me, thus any LUL staff here can confirm the position as per the previous discussions on the subject. Given that the official position was reminded to all staff in several consecutive issues of the traffic circular last year, there is no excuse for these continued incorrect interpretations - perhaps The Film Office don't get / read the Traffic Circular. I agree with Railtechnician. As a member of station staff [and confirmed anorak!] I agree with Railtechnician and Aspect. Did you get the person's name David? Write to the woman who deals with it, Kate......I will PM her name to you if you want. |
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