Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Apr 22, 2008 18:50:18 GMT
A.R. is technically right in what she says, as David hasn't mentioned anywhere in his email that he has been in possession of a valid ticket whilst taking pictures. However, unless shes incredibly naieve, surely she must realise that someone whos had an interest in the tube for 20 years wouldnt enter private property without a valid ticket, permit for presence, or permission??? But perhaps she wasn't thinking; perhaps its easier for people in her position to tow the line and say what sounds 'right' instead of what is right.
That email could be construed as being very misleading; and if it were to lead to someone paying money for something not needed it opens up a whole new can of legal worms. But one must appreciate that in these circumstances, one cant be vague atall with the questions one poses.
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Post by Chris W on Apr 22, 2008 19:13:52 GMT
DavidH et al
You read my mind as writing to LU was something that I was intending to get around to in the next couple of weeks
As aspect and others have said this is clearly bonkers. Why then, if it is so 'illegal', do LU not state it clearly in section 4.5 about ALL photography being illegal in the Conditions of Carriage instead of wittering on about flash, tripods etc. - surely that would make much better sense.
As an aside, one thing I must mention from Sunday was that I did get a couple of dirty looks from drivers (Met & Piccadilly) when taking photos of incoming trains the flash on my Canon 400D was switch to the off position (one Met driver in fact dropped the cab visor coming into Baker Street platform 1). I'm aware that there is a sensor on the front of the 400D, but does this emit a light which I'm not that I'm not aware of or have the T/O's just assumed that I'll use the flash!!??
I must admit that I do usually make myself know to a station supervisor if I will be at a station for more than 5 mins (I don't bother with SA's as in my experience they say the first thing that come into their heads (no offence intended to SA's reading, but I have had a couple of bad experiences particularly at Earls Court with SA's trying to throw their weight around).
The LU/TfL official (& correct) position needs to be know AND in writing!
David H - keep plugging away, however if you're getting answers that we believe to be emanating from someone anus, please let us know and I or another Admin/LU member of staff will progress this to the common-sense result that (we know) has to exist!
Thanks for your efforts
ChrisW
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 20:04:22 GMT
Chris My Wife suggested e-mailing the film unit, to simply 'get in writing' conformation that photography for personal use was allowed. I assumed that whoever read my e-mail at the film office wouldd have the sense to realise that I would have a valid ticket for travel (Oyster in my case).
The reply I got made me realise that the trail of misinformation comes all the way from those who should know better.
I intended to post the results of my research on this website.
I will not give up until I get the proper answer from the film unit.
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Colin
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My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Apr 22, 2008 20:21:57 GMT
With regard to mention of the traffic circular (sorry folks, it's only available to internal LU staff - so it can't be reproduced in full here) - have any of the LU staff members here actually seen the advert near/at the back?
Page 25 (if the online version is right), says this in the introduction:
I don't think any part of the said advert makes the 'waters any less muddy' than they are at present, but it does imply that the film unit bod may have taken her interpretation from it.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 21:15:29 GMT
But the vast majority of members on this board are not students, so do not qualify for the student pass. As far as I am aware, we don't need one. Searching the TfL website about photography on LU only brings up section 4.5 of LU conditions of Carriage, which has been quoted in this and other threads. I think that the student permit is to cater for groups of students making films or taking 'arty' shots of the system, not hobby photographers.
We seem to be going round in circles at the moment but all that is required is either:
(a) To see the guidelines issued to staff, which state that not-for-profit photography by private individuals is allowed, subject to the non-use of trpods, flash guns etc.
(b) To see the relevant by-laws which make photography illegal on the Underground system.
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Colin
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My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Apr 22, 2008 21:26:02 GMT
We seem to be going round in circles at the moment but all that is required is either: (a) To see the guidelines issued to staff, which state that not-for-profit photography by private individuals is allowed, subject to the non-use of trpods, flash guns etc. (b) To see the relevant by-laws which make photography illegal on the Underground system. The guidelines issued to staff are also available to the public - the conditions of carriage! Make of that what you will  .......... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 21:26:04 GMT
Just a thought, can a member who has read in an official LU doccument that personal photography is permitted, please post to confirm that it is. Thus I am not asking anyone to quote from private LU notices and circulars.
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Post by Tomcakes on Apr 22, 2008 21:26:57 GMT
I would suggest writing back to the delightful lady and asking b) - to see the law which states it is illegal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 21:31:28 GMT
We seem to be going round in circles at the moment but all that is required is either: (a) To see the guidelines issued to staff, which state that not-for-profit photography by private individuals is allowed, subject to the non-use of trpods, flash guns etc. (b) To see the relevant by-laws which make photography illegal on the Underground system. The guidelines issued to staff are also available to the public - the conditions of carriage! Make of that what you will .......... OK - the conditions of carriage only offers this: 4.5. For safety reasons, on our buses, in our bus stations and on London Underground stations
and trains you must not:
• smoke
• use bicycles, roller skates, roller blades, scooters, skateboards or similar equipment
• take flash photographs and/or use a tripod or other camera support equipment
• use emergency exits except in an emergency or when instructed to do so by our staff
You may be prosecuted for disobeying these requirements.So, why are we still being stopped and why are the film unit talking out of their behinds? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2008 21:45:24 GMT
I think Colin a more pertenant Traffic Circular notice was issued, which clarified that priavte individuals taking pictures for personal purposes did not require a permit .... The relevant By-Laws are adequately quoted above. Under the old LU rule book the position was quite clear as I posted in an earlier thread on this topic The rule book permission to take your private pictures is as follows : - Working Reference Manual, Section Sa109, Rule 10.1which reads as follows : - 10. Photography on stations
10.1 Passengers can take photographs with small cameras for private purposes, provided
• flashlights and/or tripods are not used
• no obstruction or inconvenience is caused to staff and/or passengers.
10.2 Representatives of the media, press or photographic agencies and film companies, and other persons
taking photographs for commercial purposes must first get permission from the Press Officer. See
section 13 of this document.[/color] Tell, politely, any member of staff, you have checked and been told your actions are allowed by Section Sa109, Rule 10.1 of The Working Reference Manual, and invite them to go and check the rules or with someone more senior. [/quote] Since my post in 2006, an entirely new Rule Book has been drafted comprising sectional rule books in far less legal speak .. but in consequnce providing in some cases less clarity .. The relevant rule book is Number 11, Station Management, which in Section 7 "Dealing with Customers" states as follows 7.5 Controlling flash photography
You must make sure flash photography is not used on station
platforms unless permission has been obtained from the
station supervisor.There are no other rules on the subject as far as I can find. I can't agree that the e-mail response given to DH is "technically correct", It is not resonable to infer from the posed question that the photographer has no ticket. Taking photographs on LU property is NOT illegal. Law's determine what is and is not legal, and neither the By-Laws, the rules nor any other laws make it illegal or prohibited except in specific stated circumstances. The fact LUL property is private is irellevant, the proposed photographer is not trespassing, legitimate access is allowed and during such access behaviour is controlled by specific laws, the by-laws. |
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Post by stanmorek on Apr 22, 2008 22:03:09 GMT
The email reply refers to LU as private property even though the public are allowed access. As a guess the lady is alluding to trespass law where the landowner can withdraw permission for you being there if they think you are acting unreasonably or breaking their rules. Can the station supervisor at their discretion have the final say on what is reasonable behaviour? I know as a contractor on a station I could get thrown out if the S/S didn't like the look of my face!
I'd be interested in what statutory health and safety laws have been breached though I suspect it goes back to breaking any of their rules which concern health and safety.
Note I'm not saying I agree with any of the content of the email.
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Post by Chris W on Apr 23, 2008 18:45:43 GMT
DavidH et al The Admins are on the case and we're gong to approach the relevant LU/TfL sections to get a decent/proper/less dismissive response. Of course we can't promise a fast response as we need to draft the perfect e-mail first  , but rest assured that everything raised here is relevant - thank you to everyone who's posted so far and for your efforts DavidHWatch this space  ChrisW
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Post by version3point1 on Apr 24, 2008 1:00:27 GMT
I've got a colleague who recently came back from a secondment with the Film Office and I put all of this to him in an informal chat earlier. With his understanding, he seems to be in agreement with the general consensus here. So it makes me wonder whether everybody's singing off the same song sheet.  |
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Post by dannyofelmpark on Apr 29, 2008 23:57:46 GMT
since it is now clear that andrea "talking out of her rear" russell thinks that underground photos are illegal, can i just point one thing out?
# what about the last unrefurbished d stock day,
# the last day of the east london line
# cravens rail tours
# 1938 stock rail tours
all events where everyone took photos, did any of them have a permit - i dont bloody think so!
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Apr 30, 2008 0:45:41 GMT
As Chris W has said, the admins are on the case - we will update you all as soon as we have news.........
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Post by Chris W on Jul 7, 2008 12:08:16 GMT
Just a quick update from the Admins/Mods As many forum readers/members will be aware there were issues last week (you may have read my statement about 4 incidents on Sunday 29 June) as well as ongoing issues with photographers being inappropriately harassed taking photos on LU by station staff when following the rules. The Admins are still on the case and are in regular contact with LU regarding the often confused issue of photography. Please bare with us a while longer I have updated the rules thread on the forum so that it is current to June 2008: districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=selfhelp&action=display&thread=6610Regards ChrisW |
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Oracle
In memoriam
RIP 2012
Writing is such sweet sorrow: like heck it is!
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Post by Oracle on Jul 7, 2008 13:28:13 GMT
On another forum (yes that one but not THAT one) a poster mentioned about being told point-blankedly on several occasions at Greenford station that photography was not allowed save with a permit.
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Post by 21146 on Jul 8, 2008 10:49:34 GMT
As I understand it LU staff are encouraged to speak to photographers to identify/confirm their intensions and if satisfied to take no further actions
EDITED BY CHRISW
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Post by undergroundernie on Jul 13, 2008 19:41:14 GMT
As far as I was aware photography was permitted as long as you were'nt using a flash (for obvious reasons) or a tripod (as this is where LUL make some cash from media publications).
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Post by Chris W on Jul 13, 2008 21:16:36 GMT
As far as I was aware photography was permitted as long as you weren't using a flash (for obvious reasons) or a tripod (as this is where LUL make some cash from media publications). Correct... and that's the problem - as many staff don't seem to be aware of this... According to one T/O, whose train I had just photographed and embarked on (at East Finchley back on 29 June), announced over the train tannoy system that ALL photography on LU is a CRIMINAL offence!!! I hadn't used flash or tripod and was on the platform!!! - see districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=selfhelp&action=display&thread=8180 for my statements on FOUR examples of incidents the same day  I have been doing some more digging today on the internet and have updated my rules/guidelines thread, which also includes National Rail & the powers of security staff and Police: districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=selfhelp&action=display&thread=6610IMO its sad that I have to write such things on this forum, however the actions of LU staff are becoming so obnoxious and militant that we need to be FULLY aware of the facts to educate some of them  That is NOT to say that some, who might claim to be enthusiasts, are just as obnoxious, naive or downright idiotic... there are some complete pratts in the trainspotter fraternity who shouldn't be allowed out of their house, let alone onto a railway network!! |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jul 20, 2008 14:20:55 GMT
I had a PEA operated on my train at St James's Park today (Passenger Emergency Alarm) - I sorted it as the Station Supervisor turned up......he then said "I'll leave ya to it mate, there's someone on the other side about to take a picture of a train". If it wasn't for the fact that the PEA was in the last car (isn't it always ), and the controller was holding the service all the way back to Mansion House; I'd have pulled him on what he meant by his comment and why he was itching to prioritise that ahead of a PEA. I can only assume he was gonna tell the said customer that taking photos of trains isn't allowed - this got me thinking......why do LU staff think this is the case? Have I missed an internal directive telling LU staff to stop all photography? I cannot for the life of me understand why so many LU staff have this idea that it's wrong to take a photo. FWIW, the forum staff are still pursing the general photography issue internally within LUL - I just thought I'd share my experience today. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2008 16:20:46 GMT
Right, that's it. No more photography on LU for me until this is sorted. I just can't handle the stress of constant harrasment from TfL staff. Photographers have become an easy target for LU/ Met Police/ Security bully boys. Ironically, NR has a sensible scheme for photographers which has been agreed with BTP. Lets remember the better times when the Underground was a friendlier place to be:  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 18:21:22 GMT
I remebr when i went to London from south wales on a day trip, i bought a travel card when i got to london for zones 1-4 i visisted a lot of underground stations and got a lot of photos i noticed that members of staff did see me but didnt seem to care, in fact 1 member of staff did come up to me on the hammersmith & city line platform @ paddington, although once i explained i was only takeing images for perosnal use he seemed ok and i even had a chat with him for around 5 minutes, and he even admited that there was a lot of confusion about the rules.
so maybe TFL had better publish some guidlines, like the british transport police and others have.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2008 22:42:31 GMT
so maybe TFL had better publish some guidlines, like the british transport police and others have. I don't know if it's contributed to the problem significantly or not, but recently there were several reprints in the traffic circular mentioning the guidelines for student filming permits. |
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Post by 21146 on Jul 25, 2008 21:42:02 GMT
The latest Traffic Circular (31/2008) has an important reference to enthusiast photography, confirming that this is allowed, however only at the descretion of the Station Supervisor. Presumably if you're unable to find him/her, or the station is unstaffed, it's still a no-no? And what are the grounds/guidelines for the S/S witholding said descretion? There has been no need to request prior permission before now, so is this an official change to conditions of carriage or by-laws or just an ad-hoc decision by someone in the TFL film department? This will do nothing to restrict the tourists that take flash photos will-nilly and recklessly on platforms, but presumably any enthusiasts seen operating without 'permission' will be booted out for non-compliance? It could be worse and at least it doesn't insist on persons signing-in etc. It's also just occured to me if non-LU staff are ejected for failing to ask then that'll be a bit rich since not having access to the T/C how are they supposed to know they have to seek authority first?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2008 22:50:53 GMT
I really don't understand why LU want to be so secretive about enthusiast photography. They know it goes on just as they know that it normally causes no problems. Why oh why can't they just give the same information that has been published in TC31 to all staff and enthusiasts alike. The whole thing could then be sorted out without causing a fuss and everyone would know where they stand. I personally believe that the problem comes from the fact that the head of the LU film office and her colleagues have little or no sympathy/ understanding for/ of railway enthusiasts.
As for photography being at the discretion of the S/S, this just means that bullying jobsworths like the S/Ss at Roding Valley and Clapham Common can do as they please.
Once again, clear as mud.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2008 22:57:32 GMT
I really don't understand why LU want to be so secretive about enthusiast photography. They know it goes on just as they know that it normally causes no problems. Why oh why can't they just give the same information that has been published in TC31 to all staff and enthusiasts alike. The whole thing could then be sorted out without causing a fuss and everyone would know where they stand. As for photography being at the discretion of the S/S, this just means that bullying jobsworths like the S/Ss at Roding Valley and Clapham Common can do as they please. Once again, clear as mud. Well, if all else fails we can always ask Dave to write down the URL of this thread and pass it on, and see how high it rises in the thermal waftings of site interest. Personally I rarely carry a camera with me when I'm out and about; there just isn't much that I really really want a photo of right now. EDIT: NINJA'D! |
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Post by 21146 on Jul 25, 2008 22:57:44 GMT
DavidH I echo your point about the head of the LU film office. Her department's repeated recent and irrelevant T/C entries referring to "photo permits" have only exacerbated matters...
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Colin
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My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Jul 25, 2008 23:37:26 GMT
ADMIN COMMENT:
Please do not post names of LU staff!!
Moving swiftly on; as has been stated already several times in this thread, the admins have been in contact with the relevant parties at LU (I wouldn't be all that surprised if the latest aforementioned entry in the traffic circular is a direct result of that contact) - we are not currently happy with the responses so far and are continuing our dialouge.......
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Post by 21146 on Jul 26, 2008 1:05:14 GMT
ADMIN COMMENT:
Please do not post names of LU staff!!
The full name is still listed in TheOneKea's response. I of course asterisked it to preserve anonymity,
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, but rest assured that everything raised here is relevant - thank you to everyone who's posted so far and for your efforts DavidH
