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Post by ruislip on Mar 5, 2008 23:23:40 GMT
Does TFL still plan to remove the through peak workings on that branch in favor of enhanced shuttle service? Speaking of which, why couldn't two of the 4 ex-Amersham trains per hour off peak be projected to Chesham? That would make it easier for Chesham passengers to get to/from Central London; and Amersham passengers who have to board a Chiltern train can change at any station where Chilterns and Mets share the same platform.
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Post by c5 on Mar 5, 2008 23:28:54 GMT
Does TFL still plan to remove the through peak workings on that branch in favor of enhanced shuttle service? Speaking of which, why couldn't two of the 4 ex-Amersham trains per hour off peak be projected to Chesham? That would make it easier for Chesham passengers to get to/from Central London; and Amersham passengers who have to board a Chiltern train can change at any station where Chilterns and Mets share the same platform. The consulatation took note of what the passengers wanted and kept the two through peak trains. The trouble comes when the through trains are late, does the shuttle then do an extra trip, at the risk of still being on the single line as the through train gets to Chalfont and then have to be diverted to Amersham, or do they leave it in the bay and cause a delay on the branch? However at least the passengers were able to choose! As teh the Chilterns, many no longer stop at stations other than Amersham and some run fast from London to Gt. Missenden. As the peak trains are longer, they are often unable to call at Rickmansworth, due to shorter platforms there. So, the Chilterns are not a good alternative for a number of passengers. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 5, 2008 23:34:21 GMT
There was a survey conducted a year ago, or so, which was strongly against removal of the peak workings.
Rather than remove two Amersham off peaks, why not add two Chesham off peaks. I've personally looking into this and it should work.
Firstly, there are enough spare trains to provide the 4 extra trains per hour. Secondly, there is a timetable path from Baker Street platform 4 (leaving at 20, 50) to Chesham, as long as the Chiltern train is worked ahead of this Chesham service T406 407 408 409.
The current arrangment is more reliable however, which means that the suggestions in this thread won't be taken up!
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Post by c5 on Mar 5, 2008 23:38:31 GMT
There was a survey conducted a year ago, or so, which was strongly against removal of the peak workings. Rather than remove two Amersham off peaks, why not add two Chesham off peaks. I've personally looking into this and it should work. Firstly, there are enough spare trains to provide the 4 extra trains per hour. Secondly, there is a timetable path from Baker Street platform 4 (leaving at 20, 50) to Chesham, as long as the Chiltern train is worked ahead of this Chesham service T406 407 408 409. The current arrangment is more reliable however, which means that the suggestions in this thread won't be taken up! They can't be numbered 408 or 409 though ;D ;D ;D But are there paths for them to come back? and to come down to Baker Street? |
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Post by metman on Mar 6, 2008 0:14:58 GMT
woops, yes you're right! T404 405 406 407
There should be paths. The Chesham trains would run at the same times as the Amersham trains in the vacant 20 min gaps.
So the departures from Baker Street would be 00a 10a 20c 30a 40a 50c
a-Amersham
c-Chesham
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2008 7:30:18 GMT
How about they completely remove the Chesham through train altogether. I'm sick of sitting on the North curve or Aldgate inner rail being held (when I arrive in turn) so they can push a Chesham out in front of me. Those rich bods should have to experience the same delays the rest of us do!
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Post by abe on Mar 6, 2008 8:46:35 GMT
I think you'll find that the trains to Amersham and Chesham get just as delayed as any other service. In the morning peaks, any disruption in the City area causes trains from Amersham/Chesham to be terminated at Harrow in preference to Uxbridge and Watford trains. So I don't think that it's a valid complaint, and sounds more like a chip on shoulder problem.
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Post by abe on Mar 6, 2008 8:47:58 GMT
why couldn't two of the 4 ex-Amersham trains per hour off peak be projected to Chesham? The problem with this idea is that it deprives Amersham of two trains an hour, whereas if the through trains continue to Amersham the shuttle still provides Chesham with a service. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2008 17:11:41 GMT
As a guess, 75% of Cheshams 500,000 annual users are during the peak times. So is there a demand for having off peak Chesham trains?
Also running longer distance Chesham trains runs the risk of trains blocking the main line, whilst the single line branch is occupied.
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Post by peterc on Mar 6, 2008 19:28:04 GMT
Of course scrapping the through trains would solve the problem of the people who jump off a northbound Chesham at Chalfont and Latimer and then go and wait for the shuttle.
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Post by metman on Mar 6, 2008 19:42:40 GMT
Eh? Who in their right mind would do that? Surely, if you are on a Chesham train, you wouldn't get off it unless you were a couple of spanners short of a toolbox!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2008 20:13:29 GMT
Eh? Who in their right mind would do that? Surely, if you are on a Chesham train, you wouldn't get off it unless you were a couple of spanners short of a toolbox! It's the usual problem of people who assume rather than use their eyes and ears. Because most northbound trains from Chalfont go to Amersham, people assume that they all do. We have a similar problem on the District at Earls Court - it's a C stock, so it must be going to Wimbledon. Well, usually, but not always! |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 7, 2008 1:02:54 GMT
I saw a "Special fares apply" map when I was last on the Met (23rd of Feb) and took a photo of it -  (click for a larger version). Obviously the person going through this carriage adding the stickers about fast services at Wembley Park didn't notice this though -  (click for a larger version) |
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Post by metman on Mar 7, 2008 1:09:14 GMT
Totally village!
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 7, 2008 1:10:44 GMT
Eh? Who in their right mind would do that? Surely, if you are on a Chesham train, you wouldn't get off it unless you were a couple of spanners short of a toolbox! It's the usual problem of people who assume rather than use their eyes and ears. Because most northbound trains from Chalfont go to Amersham, people assume that they all do. We have a similar problem on the District at Earls Court - it's a C stock, so it must be going to Wimbledon. Well, usually, but not always! You would hope that now all the D stocks are refurbed, people are less able to tell the difference between the two (and those who can have the common sense such as to check the destination). I'd also hope that in situations like that (C stock going say to Ealing), the train operator would be wary of the ignorance of some passengers and make an announcement "Your attention please, this is NOT a Wimbledon train, if you are for stations to Wimbledon, get off and wait on the platform, this is an Ealing service" or the like. |
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Post by District Dave on Mar 7, 2008 9:21:27 GMT
I'd also hope that in situations like that (C stock going say to Ealing), the train operator would be wary of the ignorance of some passengers and make an announcement "Your attention please, this is NOT a Wimbledon train, if you are for stations to Wimbledon, get off and wait on the platform, this is an Ealing service" or the like. Though I absolutely agree with your sentiment, this does assume that the T/Op actually cares if his passengers know where they're going to end up! Sadly I've observed on too many occasions that the destination has been changed on the front of the train and off it goes - no announcement - nothing. Even if passengers complain the chances are the T/Op will simply shrug and carry on regardless. |
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Post by peterc on Mar 7, 2008 11:46:46 GMT
I can understand the development of such an attitude. The ability of the public to ignore notices, advice and annoucements is incredible.
Slightly off topic but I was working as a bouncer at a gig once which had sold about half the tickets in advance. I went down the ticket office queue to tell ticket holders that they could come straight through. Nobody did and half a dozen people then presented their tickets at the cash desk.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2008 12:23:57 GMT
I always work on the following: Never underestimate people's stupidity  |
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 7, 2008 13:31:49 GMT
Indeed, that has been proved to be on far too many occasions!
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Post by District Dave on Mar 7, 2008 15:08:21 GMT
I can understand the development of such an attitude. The ability of the public to ignore notices, advice and annoucements is incredible. I think one of the best examples of this was a couple of years ago when there was one of the Earls Court <-> Whitechapel blockades. I had a trainee and we were doing Ealing Broadway <-> High Street Ken shuttles. My trainee had religiously been doing PA's about the suspension, offering alternatives etc. as prescribed, and doing them very well. On arrival at HSK we were accosted by an irate individual demanding to know what we were doing there as he'd got on the train to go to Victoria (or somewhere in the central area). I pointed out to him there was no service because of the engineering works; 'since when' he demanded, to which I replied appropriately. I enquired if he hadn't noticed the posters 'don't read posters' he replied. Hadn't he heard the PA's we enquired; 'didn't know you were talking to me' he responded. My trainee and I looked at each other, shook our heads despairingly and continued about our duties............ |
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 7, 2008 15:42:37 GMT
(When testing a program) "You can think of something stupid the user will do - and they will always do it, and then something more stupid besides".
Unfortunately I can, to a degree, sympathise with the PA thing as there are simply so many these days with useless and irrelevent rubbish, that when there is a real reason for one, people tune out.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2008 18:56:39 GMT
I think one of the best examples of this was a couple of years ago when there was one of the Earls Court <-> Whitechapel blockades. I had a trainee and we were doing Ealing Broadway <-> High Street Ken shuttles. My trainee had religiously been doing PA's about the suspension, offering alternatives etc. as prescribed, and doing them very well. On arrival at HSK we were accosted by an irate individual demanding to know what we were doing there as he'd got on the train to go to Victoria (or somewhere in the central area). I pointed out to him there was no service because of the engineering works; 'since when' he demanded, to which I replied appropriately. I enquired if he hadn't noticed the posters 'don't read posters' he replied. A5 versions of the posters would be good for this... "Here you are, your own copy of it. Now, if you will excuse me, I have a train to drive." As a passenger, I've had similar things happen - when I used to work shifts involving weekends, I was working one weekend when there was a southbound Northern Line Bank branch suspension. There was someone quite annoyed that she couldn't go south as she needed to get to London Bridge. I thought as quickly as I could and offered her two ways to get there. "Oh, I haven't got time..." was the response. "What choice have you got? If you're going to travel at weekends, plan, and double-check!". On that particular weekend, the second in succession if I recall correctly, my journey on the Saturday had been disrupted by failures on the Central Line. That happened two weeks running as well, but was far worse the first time. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2008 19:03:17 GMT
I'd also hope that in situations like that (C stock going say to Ealing), the train operator would be wary of the ignorance of some passengers and make an announcement "Your attention please, this is NOT a Wimbledon train, if you are for stations to Wimbledon, get off and wait on the platform, this is an Ealing service" or the like. I was aware that C stock could be used for other District Line services than Wimbleware but are there any parts of the line where C stock could not be used? |
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Post by happybunny on Mar 7, 2008 19:37:54 GMT
Between Barking and Upminster... apparently.. but recently the C stocks have visited Upminster for wheel lathe so maybe that has changed ... but AFAIK (as a District line driver) a train can not be taken in passenger EB beyond Barking. Everywhere else is fine.
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Post by Tomcakes on Mar 7, 2008 20:33:04 GMT
As I recall as a humble punter, they can go there, but they must be empty and run at 5mph under given bridges? Or am I confusing myself with the Rayners branch?
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Post by Chris M on Mar 7, 2008 20:36:58 GMT
That sounds like the Rayners branch.
AFAIK the gauging issues for C stock between Barking and Upminster are not height related, but interaction between the train and platform nosing stones.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2008 20:37:19 GMT
A and C stocks are limited to 15mph under certain bridges on the Rayners Lane branch of the Piccadilly Line. I would have thought they should only run empty. I would think the same rule also applies to D stocks, in the event of a wrong stick. (I am sure Dave will answer this one!)
As for C stocks past Barking, I have not seen anything anywhere else saying "not allowed" but have never seen anything definitive about it anyway.
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Post by ruislip on Mar 7, 2008 20:48:45 GMT
I think one of the best examples of this was a couple of years ago when there was one of the Earls Court <-> Whitechapel blockades. Was that when the Circle line service was suspended in 1999 and again in either 2000 or '01? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2008 0:04:18 GMT
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Post by amershamsi on Mar 8, 2008 1:35:11 GMT
Chesham can cope with 2tph off-peak and Amersham could get away with less than 4tph off-peak - the bigger problem is the slightly-less-than-2tph peak service being too little (and Chiltern also half their frequency during peaks as they don't want to overload the Aylesbury trains) - perhaps run Amersham shuttles during peaks!
Chesham can cope with current service off-peak - perhaps replace one through Amersham train and a Chesham shuttle trip in each off-peak hour with an Amersham shuttle trip and a through Chesham train to improve things slightly without too much hassle.
I suspect that a lot of the problem is hidden by people driving to Chalfont from both Amersham and Chesham, and picking up the 5tph from there during peaks. From what I gather many people do it - my dad did for years when he was working in the City - got dropped off at Chalfont, picked up at Amersham (Amersham being slightly closer and a better place to wait)
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