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Post by superteacher on Mar 30, 2020 16:04:32 GMT
Thanks to those who have explained what a Section 12 station is, but let’s get back on topic now please.
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Post by d7666 on Mar 30, 2020 18:06:21 GMT
It is actually inclusive of stations with platforms that are more than 50% covered/below ground. An example is Bow Road which counted as Section 12 whilst having some areas in the open. Main line stations like Liverpool Street are included because of the canopies. Just to note its not the canopies (or to be precise the high iron and glass train shed) which is what makes Liverpool Street (Mainline) a 'section 12' station - its the fact that half the station has been rafted over to build office blocks thus putting some platforms entirely (and others in part) in a low ceiling underground like box. London Victoria (Central side), Charing Cross, Cannon Street plus possibly parts of Paddington and Euston also qualify as section 12 stations for the same reasons.
As is Birmingham New Street, to cite a not-so-obvious provincial station. EDIT oops sorry just seen the mods post. Apologies. |
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 30, 2020 19:46:32 GMT
It is actually inclusive of stations with platforms that are more than 50% covered/below ground. An example is Bow Road which counted as Section 12 whilst having some areas in the open. Main line stations like Liverpool Street are included because of the canopies. Just to note its not the canopies (or to be precise the high iron and glass train shed) which is what makes Liverpool Street (Mainline) a 'section 12' station - its the fact that half the station has been rafted over to build office blocks thus putting some platforms entirely (and others in part) in a low ceiling underground like box. London Victoria (Central side), Charing Cross, Cannon Street plus possibly parts of Paddington and Euston also qualify as section 12 stations for the same reasons.
You can't have part of a station being Section 12. Victoria, Paddington and Euston are Section 12. It is about fire safety and the potential for smoke to affect any evacuations. The choice of materials used in the stations is crucial. The escalator shaft at King's Cross had 48 layers of paint which is why there was a flashover. All paints used nowadays are water based. Things like electrical cables must be low smoke zero halogen. Staffing levels at Section 12 are vital to fire safety as all areas of the station need to be checked on a regular basis and there needs to be enough on site to evacuate when needed. |
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Post by superteacher on Mar 30, 2020 20:03:16 GMT
Thanks to those who have explained what a Section 12 station is, but let’s get back on topic now please.
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Post by philthetube on Mar 30, 2020 20:46:19 GMT
The only relevance of section 12 to this discussion is that section 12 stations have a minimum staffing requirement, others generally do not, so in case of shortage of staff, section 12 stations may close others generally will remain open.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Mar 31, 2020 20:08:08 GMT
For the record, a brief update on the LU service being run. Little has changed since last week, as far as I can tell no lines have brought in the timetable notices yet. The Piccadilly is now running a special service Cockfosters to Heathrow T4 or T5 plus a shuttle service on the Rayners branch.
Certainly within my area there continues to be doubt from those who actually run the service as to the viability of running the timetable notice, both in terms of crew availability and also rolling stock availability - with the rolling stock depots also suffering from staff shortages.
A personal view, however I think it was madness to go for a 4-minute end-to-end service, which has presumably stemmed from the Mayor’s suggestion of a Saturday service. There isn’t the demand for such a frequency, especially through the whole traffic day, and quite simply there don’t appear to be the resources to provide it. A less frequent service would have been perfectly adequate so long as the intervals were regular and a focus on the early morning.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 31, 2020 21:13:06 GMT
The escalator shaft at King's Cross had 48 layers of paint which is why there was a flashover. At the risk of going off topic (please forgive me superteacher !) the manufacturers of the paint used at King's Cross were represented at the enquiry. The Fennell report states there were "as many as twenty individual paint layers", not 48. It further says that there was an allegation "that the paint had been a substantial cause of the flashover. ...It is clear from the evidence which I have heard that there was no substance in the allegation". The full report is at the Railways Archive, should anyone wish to re-appraise themselves with its contents. |
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Post by PiccNT on Mar 31, 2020 22:12:48 GMT
For the record, a brief update on the LU service being run. Little has changed since last week, as far as I can tell no lines have brought in the timetable notices yet. The Piccadilly is now running a special service Cockfosters to Heathrow T4 or T5 plus a shuttle service on the Rayners branch. Certainly within my area there continues to be doubt from those who actually run the service as to the viability of running the timetable notice, both in terms of crew availability and also rolling stock availability - with the rolling stock depots also suffering from staff shortages. A personal view, however I think it was madness to go for a 4-minute end-to-end service, which has presumably stemmed from the Mayor’s suggestion of a Saturday service. There isn’t the demand for such a frequency, especially through the whole traffic day, and quite simply there don’t appear to be the resources to provide it. A less frequent service would have been perfectly adequate so long as the intervals were regular and a focus on the early morning. The new timetables/schedules are being mulled over at the moment. At the moment, each of the four depots on our line are responsible for crewing 6 trains. All trains from my depot (Cockfosters) go to T5 and back, unless the controller changes it en route, and we will be relieved by one of the drivers at our depot. That way, everyone knows what they're doing and the Trains Manager's seem to be able to manage this without a problem. Occasionally a train ends up out of turn but a simple reform when it arrives does the trick. Maybe we should just stick with that! |
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Post by zbang on Apr 1, 2020 0:41:59 GMT
FWIW, San Francisco Muni has withdrawn all rail service for the duration and substituted buses as needed. They've also cancelled some complete bus lines and extended others. BART, having lost +90% of usual ridership, has reduced the hours of service but not the number of trains on-line (or lengths?); given the headways they run, this isn't surprising. (OTOH, with early station closures they're going ahead with capital improvements where possible.)
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gantshill
I had to change my profile pic!
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Post by gantshill on Apr 1, 2020 10:04:33 GMT
I am amused to see that the current TfL status page states that the Northern Line has a good service, while every other line is either closed or has a special service. I do note that today is 1st April?
Seriously, thanks must go to all TfL staff and others ensuring that TfL services are running at the moment.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 1, 2020 10:24:21 GMT
I am amused to see that the current TfL status page states that the Northern Line has a good service, while every other line is either closed or has a special service. I do note that today is 1st April? Very good! Considering 7 stations remain closed (8 yesterday), 61 trains cancelled (yesterday AM) and average 40.7% of service provided! UPDATE 12.00 now back to “special service” Northern Line; however Circle Line now “good service” although no actual service operating! |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 1, 2020 11:18:08 GMT
Maybe the TfL media team is self-isolating/working from home..
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Post by superteacher on Apr 1, 2020 11:33:56 GMT
I am amused to see that the current TfL status page states that the Northern Line has a good service, while every other line is either closed or has a special service. I do note that today is 1st April? Very good! Considering 7 stations remain closed (8 yesterday), 61 trains cancelled (yesterday AM) and average 40.7% of service provided! UPDATE 12.00 now back to “special service” Northern Line; however Circle Line now “good service” although no actual service operating! Yet they hope to be able to run a 4 minute end=to-end service? Like that's every going to happen! |
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hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
Posts: 516
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Post by hobbayne on Apr 1, 2020 11:39:19 GMT
Very good! Considering 7 stations remain closed (8 yesterday), 61 trains cancelled (yesterday AM) and average 40.7% of service provided! UPDATE 12.00 now back to “special service” Northern Line; however Circle Line now “good service” although no actual service operating! Yet they hope to be able to run a 4 minute end=to-end service? Like that's every going to happen! ASLEF are pushing for this to be implemented asap. |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 1, 2020 11:48:46 GMT
Yet they hope to be able to run a 4 minute end=to-end service? Like that's every going to happen! ASLEF are pushing for this to be implemented asap. But how? |
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Post by brigham on Apr 1, 2020 12:15:57 GMT
You could ask Roger Bannister...
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 1, 2020 12:17:29 GMT
You could ask Roger Bannister... He's a bit dead unfortunately... |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 1, 2020 12:22:54 GMT
Confirmed that all LU planned engineering works are cancelled until further notice except the Victoria Line work at Brixton on BH Monday 25 May (suspension of whole Line).
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Post by superteacher on Apr 1, 2020 12:30:57 GMT
You could ask Roger Bannister... Your quips are getting more and more obscure. I know you are trying to lighten the mood, but there isn't much point if nobody gets the joke! |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 1, 2020 12:36:48 GMT
You could ask Roger Bannister... Your quips are getting more and more obscure. I know you are trying to lighten the mood, but there isn't much point if nobody gets the joke! I got it. Roger Bannister is famous for being the first person to run a four-minute mile. |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 1, 2020 13:03:42 GMT
Your quips are getting more and more obscure. I know you are trying to lighten the mood, but there isn't much point if nobody gets the joke! I got it. Roger Bannister is famous for being the first person to run a four-minute mile. I'd expect nothing less from our esteemed quizmaster!  |
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Post by Dmitri on Apr 1, 2020 19:04:14 GMT
Moscow metro, today, 8:45AM. Normally, the car is packed.  |
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hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
Posts: 516
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Post by hobbayne on Apr 1, 2020 20:22:07 GMT
ASLEF are pushing for this to be implemented asap. But how? The Ad Hoc service currently running on the central has allegedly been open to abuse by some depots where drivers are barely seeing a train and others are working like horses to run the main core. The 7 hour 12 system will ensure everybody gets a fair crack. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 1, 2020 20:46:02 GMT
Got a message from Finn Brennan that management have decided to "push back the implementation" of the timetables that were going to be introduced on Sunday by one week to "make them more acceptable".
Another magnificent example of competence and efficiency from London Underground senior management, couldn't run a bath...
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Apr 1, 2020 21:11:41 GMT
The Ad Hoc service currently running on the central has allegedly been open to abuse by some depots where drivers are barely seeing a train and others are working like horses to run the main core. The 7 hour 12 system will ensure everybody gets a fair crack. That is unfortunately the nature of a special, especially if the service runs with shuttles like the Central has been doing, and with the train crew depots not laid out with such a service in mind. The Central tried to run without shuttles, and it’s fair to say from observations this attempt was fairly disastrous. I wouldn’t be surprised if the mess over the timetable notices is at least partially the result of some political interference, with the mayor having come under some scrutiny regarding the reduced services. |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 2, 2020 10:01:33 GMT
The Central line seems to have disintegrated with a part suspension caused by a trespasser. When I checked, there were no westbound trains anywhere on the line from Hainault / Epping all the way to Marble Arch. I guess an emergency timetable is very hard to maintain when there is an additional disruption.
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Post by littlejohn on Apr 2, 2020 11:12:27 GMT
I got it. Roger Bannister is famous for being the first person to run a four-minute mile. I'd expect nothing less from our esteemed quizmaster! Pedantry Alert! Roger Bannister is famous or being the first person to run a mile in UNDER 4 minutes. The first man to run a 4-minute mile was Derek Ibbotson at White City (time: 4.00.00). |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 2, 2020 11:15:02 GMT
I'd expect nothing less from our esteemed quizmaster! Pedantry Alert! Roger Bannister is famous or being the first person to run a mile in UNDER 4 minutes. The first man to run a 4-minute mile was Derek Ibbotson at White City (time: 4.00.00). Indeed. We love a bit of pedantry on here. Back on topic now though, please.
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hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
Posts: 516
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Post by hobbayne on Apr 2, 2020 11:41:44 GMT
The Central line seems to have disintegrated with a part suspension caused by a trespasser. When I checked, there were no westbound trains anywhere on the line from Hainault / Epping all the way to Marble Arch. I guess an emergency timetable is very hard to maintain when there is an additional disruption. Still nothing west of WHC 2 hours later. This is an unusual delay for trespassers. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 2, 2020 11:52:17 GMT
It's possible the trespasser has interacted with a train in a manner that means that medical and/or ERU attention is required, which will not necessarily be as quick to arrive or carry out as it normally would.
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