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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 4, 2022 17:53:35 GMT
TfL Commissioner, Andy Byford.
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 4, 2022 23:09:14 GMT
with the ending of 'work from home' and winding down of many covid restrictions I am curious to know whether passengers are now returning in their droves. The short & simple answer is no. London Underground is currently seeing around 50% of pre covid levels and London buses around 70%. National Rail is at about 45%. Whilst there is certainly room for the leisure & tourism element to pick up some more, I don't see the regular commuters returning fully to their previous levels as some workplaces (offices primarily of course) have adapted the way they work and are now less reliant on having all their employee's at a fixed work place for all five days of the working week. We are a long long way from T fL being self financing again. In some ways not having peaks that are quite as busy as before should be a blessing, as it means a less intensive peak service is needed, fewer trains, less crowding etc. The only downside is that income might be down, somewhat. re: the news that the funding settlement is further delayed, my thoughts turn to the proverbial can being kicked further down the road.
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Post by nig on Feb 5, 2022 1:18:46 GMT
Tube travel was up to 59% busses 74% rail 60% and tfl rail 84% of pre covid levels last week getting slightly bussier but a long way to go
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Post by alpinejohn on Feb 5, 2022 9:03:04 GMT
Eventually TFL and the Treasury will need a major re-think on funding.
I somehow feel it is dangerous for TFL (and the unions) to overlook the big picture or assume things will "return to normal".
Regardless of Covid - commuting levels in and around London have probably returned to their new peak as more and more office based businesses have developed effective Work from Home arrangements. Yes there may still be a need for occasional gatherings/team meetings but these are likely to require only occasional "all hands on deck" and can be accommodated in a rented conference facility or meeting hall rather than a expensive corporate HQ.
Already many office based companies have realised that once you write off the initial costs then going forward working from home saves them money - lots of money - as they can reduce their office heating bills, can reduce or sell off office space, can minimise travel expense claims and can still pay staff the same amount.
The weird bit is many people working from home actually seem keen to work harder - if only to demonstrate to colleagues still based in the office that they are not sitting around doing nothing. Yes there was a once off cost adapting business processes to support people working from home but that bill has been paid, and working from Home will be the norm for many new businesses.
As they say the genie is out the bottle and forecast commuting numbers need a serious re-think - which may mean it is time to seriously adjust staffing and service levels across the tube to reflect real travel patterns.
Going on strike now simply demonstrates that many people can actually do without their service - yes it causes inconvenience for many but "life goes on" - I feel it is only a matter of time before Night Tube is abandoned and funds will be found by the Treasury to transfer the Waterloo and City back to Network Rail which will only be re-opened after it is modified for fully automated operation.
I am worried that the louder Mayor Khan insists the system is safe whilst insisting on people wearing masks to fight a disease which we are now being told is endemic within the UK population is only underscoring the message that public transport is more dangerous - so hardly a good image to attract potential visitors and indeed why many people will continue to prefer to drive around in their own enclosed air conditioned box regardless of the environmental or economic cost.
Wake up Mayor - your messaging is counter-productive - by all means encourage - but do not mandate masks. That ship has sailed...
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Post by sawb on Feb 5, 2022 11:10:18 GMT
As they say the genie is out the bottle and forecast commuting numbers need a serious re-think - which may mean is time to seriously adjust staffing and service levels across the tube to reflect real travel patterns. Indeed, hence why National Rail operators paused all work on their 2023 and 2024 timetables in 2020 and why some other non-transport businesses have already closed, as they knew they couldn't adapt and still be a profitable going concern.
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Post by 35b on Feb 5, 2022 12:27:24 GMT
Eventually TFL and the Treasury will need a major re-think on funding. I somehow feel it is dangerous for TFL (and the unions) to overlook the big picture or assume things will "return to normal". Regardless of Covid - commuting levels in and around London have probably returned to their new peak as more and more office based businesses have developed effective Work from Home arrangements. Yes there may still be a need for occasional gatherings/team meetings but these are likely to require only occasional "all hands on deck" and can be accommodated in a rented conference facility or meeting hall rather than a expensive corporate HQ. Already many office based companies have realised that once you write off the initial costs then going forward working from home saves them money - lots of money - as they can reduce their office heating bills, can reduce or sell off office space, can minimise travel expense claims and can still pay staff the same amount. The weird bit is many people working from home actually seem keen to work harder - if only to demonstrate to colleagues still based in the office that they are not sitting around doing nothing. Yes there was a once off cost adapting business processes to support people working from home but that bill has been paid, and working from Home will be the norm for many new businesses. As they say the genie is out the bottle and forecast commuting numbers need a serious re-think - which may mean it is time to seriously adjust staffing and service levels across the tube to reflect real travel patterns. Going on strike now simply demonstrates that many people can actually do without their service - yes it causes inconvenience for many but "life goes on" - I feel it is only a matter of time before Night Tube is abandoned and funds will be found by the Treasury to transfer the Waterloo and City back to Network Rail which will only be re-opened after it is modified for fully automated operation. I am worried that the louder Mayor Khan insists the system is safe whilst insisting on people wearing masks to fight a disease which we are now being told is endemic within the UK population is only underscoring the message that public transport is more dangerous - so hardly a good image to attract potential visitors and indeed why many people will continue to prefer to drive around in their own enclosed air conditioned box regardless of the environmental or economic cost. Wake up Mayor - your messaging is counter-productive - by all means encourage - but do not mandate masks. That ship has sailed... I think there’s a way to go yet before we know what the new normal will be like. My employer is still limiting office capacity to 50%, and people are only starting to come back in. Traveling on Wednesday was the first time I’d encountered a properly busy Circle line train, enough for me to step back onto the following one. But I still walked without breaking step from Platform 0 to Circle line platform at Kings Cross. There’s time yet for things to evolve, and I agree that demand is delicate.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 5, 2022 14:26:29 GMT
Surveys by Transport Focus and others suggest that more people would use public transport if masks were mandatory so the "message" is far from counter-productive.
The evening peak has definitely been busier this week but the big loss is tourists, until they start coming back to the UK fares are going to suffer
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Post by alpinejohn on Feb 6, 2022 9:14:04 GMT
I rather had the impression that at least as far as TFL services were concerned the Mayor had chosen to insist passengers wear masks - so what exactly is holding back these "more people" from currently using public transport in London?
Meanwhile the underlying message from Government advisers is that we have pretty much attained herd immunity in the UK - so just how long does it make sense to "insist" on masks as opposed to recommending them? Should we still be having this discussion next year? Next decade? Next Century? (Why am I am suddenly reminded of scary calculations last century about the potential depth of horse dung being deposited on London Roads - masks thrown away per journey = xxx? millions of tonnes of extra rubbish to sweep up or collect and dispose of in contaminated land fill)
We are told that lots of people (vaccinated & unvaccinated) could right now have some variant of the Covid virus but have no symptoms and be spreading it around and around wherever they go. So Covid becomes more and more like colds and flu and we are never going to get rid of this virus completely.
Whilst there was no effective vaccine and very limited understanding of Covid risks, Government imposed lockdowns and mask mandates made sense to limit exposure. However now pretty much anyone who really WANTS to be vaccinated has been able to get vaccinated. Hence people should now be allowed to revert to normal. Indeed that may finally see some growth in overseas visitor numbers and public transport use.
As for surveys - no matter how well intentioned - they are very prone to question bias. They will often only give a broad indication based on what the surveyor has been instructed to ask. Sadly survey contacts are not always willing to share their true thoughts and can give answers which they think the survey authors want to hear. "Yes of course I would use Public Transport more but..."
Rather than relying on educated guesswork, I hope TFL can find the funds to carry out an in-depth trawl through historical Oyster data (suitably anonymised) which should provide a far better picture of where there is real demand and where it has been lost.
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Post by 35b on Feb 6, 2022 9:36:54 GMT
I rather had the impression that at least as far as TFL services were concerned the Mayor had chosen to insist passengers wear masks - so what exactly is holding back these "more people" from currently using public transport in London? Meanwhile the underlying message from Government advisers is that we have pretty much attained herd immunity in the UK - so just how long does it make sense to "insist" on masks as opposed to recommending them? Should we still be having this discussion next year? Next decade? Next Century? (Why am I am suddenly reminded of scary calculations last century about the potential depth of horse dung being deposited on London Roads - masks thrown away per journey = xxx? millions of tonnes of extra rubbish to sweep up or collect and dispose of in contaminated land fill) We are told that lots of people (vaccinated & unvaccinated) could right now have some variant of the Covid virus but have no symptoms and be spreading it around and around wherever they go. So Covid becomes more and more like colds and flu and we are never going to get rid of this virus completely. Whilst there was no effective vaccine and very limited understanding of Covid risks, Government imposed lockdowns and mask mandates made sense to limit exposure. However now pretty much anyone who really WANTS to be vaccinated has been able to get vaccinated. Hence people should now be allowed to revert to normal. Indeed that may finally see some growth in overseas visitor numbers and public transport use. As for surveys - no matter how well intentioned - they are very prone to question bias. They will often only give a broad indication based on what the surveyor has been instructed to ask. Sadly survey contacts are not always willing to share their true thoughts and can give answers which they think the survey authors want to hear. "Yes of course I would use Public Transport more but..." Rather than relying on educated guesswork, I hope TFL can find the funds to carry out an in-depth trawl through historical Oyster data (suitably anonymised) which should provide a far better picture of where there is real demand and where it has been lost. This occasional commuter’s observation is that the role of what the Mayor does or does not demand by way of mask wearing is secondary to the basics of demand for travel. I visited the office for the first time in ages last week; I had to pre book and capacity was limited to 50%. My employer is not alone. International travel is down. I had colleagues due to visit from India about now; a combination of Omicron in the U.K. at the time they were making decisions and now the number of Covid cases in India have mean they stayed home. Tourism is challenging as different countries move their rules with little notice, disrupting plans as they go. Those are the keys to demand, far more than whether we are obliged to wear a mask on TfL services. Mask wearing will be about the icing on the cake; at the moment, that cake’s missing a huge great chunk that all the analysis in the world won’t be able to decide whether it’ll come back together until workplaces open fully, and holidaymakers start coming back. Edit (hit submit too soon). What will also not help demand recover from Covid is industrial action when the terms of any settlement between government and TfL are still uncertain. If I can get a desk in the office, then a mask mandate won’t stop me travelling. But knowing that my journey will be disrupted because stations are closed and trains not running stop me travelling. And because so many now use Contactless rather than pre paying season tickets, that will hit TfL in the pocket and make recovery even harder.
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Post by nig on Feb 6, 2022 10:37:36 GMT
I hope TFL can find the funds to carry out an in-depth trawl through historical Oyster data (suitably anonymised) which should provide a far better picture of where there is real demand and where it has been lost. They do use oyster data for exactly that airport is 38 percent lower and city is 48 percent and shopping at 59 percent obviously there is a lot more than those they look at
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 6, 2022 10:40:30 GMT
Face Coverings on TfL services/property is a Condition of Carriage which can only be enforced by the 500 TfL Enforcement Officers, not many to cover buses, Tube, DLR, TfL Rail, London Overground and Croydon Trams. There are no fines under the CoC, passengers not complying can be refused entry or removed from services/property. When The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings on Public Transport) (England) Regulations 2020 were in force the police could assist with enforcement and there were fines.
“Herd immunity” is nonsense, if it existed then there wouldn't be around half a million recorded cases of people being reinfected with Covid in England alone. I'm not a virologist, immunologist or whatever so I have absolutely no idea how long this is going to go on but in a lot of countries face coverings are still mandatory while in Japan and other east Asian countries wearing face coverings during winter months is quite normal: maybe we should follow their example
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 6, 2022 14:24:53 GMT
Just a word of warning - some of the discussion and mention of the actions of the Mayor are getting a little close to being off-topic. Please be careful not to stray too far from the thread topic, which is The implications of the pandemic for London's Transport. The forum staff will remove or edit posts which are not relevant to the pandemic's implications for transport.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 7, 2022 12:20:08 GMT
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Post by brigham on Feb 8, 2022 8:42:16 GMT
I'm not sure that 'an admission' is the right term here.
It makes it sound like it was known, but they were covering it up!
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 8, 2022 9:22:20 GMT
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 8, 2022 10:00:10 GMT
TfL publishes an annual report which details revenue and expenditure so it was well known that fares were the major sources of income. In April 2020 the Mayor warned that TfL was having to use it's cash reserves to keep services running and that it would have to cut services if it didn't get government funding
How is that "covering it up"?
In October 2020 the Prime Minister claimed that the Mayor had "bankrupted" TfL and that was repeated by others including the Conservative candidate for the London mayoral elections. To the best of my knowledge this is the first time anyone from the government has blamed the over reliance on fares and the drop in passengers due to Covid.
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Post by brigham on Feb 9, 2022 8:43:17 GMT
It isn't 'covering it up'. That's the whole point of my comment. "Finally an admission..." SOUNDS LIKE they were previously covering it up. They weren't. It was common knowledge.
Either I've become more sensitized to weasel words, or there are more weasel words in use.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 9, 2022 10:23:54 GMT
It might have been "common knowledge" but the government and Conservatives on the Greater London Authority have repeatedly accused the Mayor of being responsible for TfL's financial situation, the implication being that had the Mayor done things different since 2016 TfL wouldn't be in such dire financial straits, a claim which certain sections of the press were more than happy to promote..
As I said that is the first time I've seen anyone connected with the government specifically mention TfL's reliance on fares.
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Post by Tom on Feb 9, 2022 10:52:07 GMT
Right... I said I'd allow aslefshrugged's post. What I and the other forum staff will not permit is a "he said, she said" debate about whether something was a cover-up or an attempt to mislead the public or just to 'spin' about the state of TfL's finances.
This part of the discussion ends now. Continue it, and we'll have no choice but to lock the thread.
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Post by jimbo on Feb 10, 2022 23:48:09 GMT
Latest TfL figures show continued growth in ridership following lifting of working from home restrictions (press release): New analysis of ridership data by TfL has revealed that, since working from home restrictions were lifted on 19 January 2022, the number of people using the Tube during weekdays has increased by at least 25 per cent. Ridership is now regularly around 60 per cent of pre-pandemic levels during the week - up from around 45 per cent in early January, with stations close to financial institutions such as Canary Wharf, Mansion House and Aldgate seeing ridership numbers between 8 and 9am already well on track to having double seen while working from home restrictions were in place. Ridership on the Waterloo and City line is now just under 50 per cent of pre-pandemic levels during peak hours, following a full weekday service resuming on 31 January. At weekends, ridership on the Tube is now at around 75 per cent of pre-pandemic levels and key tourist stations such as Leicester Square are already seeing ridership levels above 80 per cent on Saturday. The Night Tube is continuing to see increased ridership, with levels on the Victoria and Central line now at around 45 per cent of those seen on those lines prior to the pandemic. Ridership on the Night Overground, which operates between Highbury & Islington and New Cross Gate on Friday and Saturday nights, is also now around 50 per cent of levels seen before the pandemic.
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Post by johnlinford on Feb 12, 2022 8:53:58 GMT
I noted yesterday evening that the front doors on DLR services now seem to be back in customer use - they had been cordoned off again in late December as Omicron hit. The front few seats are still being used as a space for the train captain. Mask usage seems virtually nil, however.
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Post by Chris L on Feb 12, 2022 9:44:33 GMT
I noted yesterday evening that the front doors on DLR services now seem to be back in customer use - they had been cordoned off again in late December as Omicron hit. The front few seats are still being used as a space for the train captain. Mask usage seems virtually nil, however. I have to disagree about mask wearing on the DLR. It is usually pretty good on the Woolwich Arsenal services.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 21, 2022 16:03:16 GMT
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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 25, 2022 12:22:21 GMT
funding package extended to 24 June 2022:
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Post by jimbo on Feb 27, 2022 3:44:39 GMT
This is not going away! Transport for London Settlement Letter - 25 February 2022
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Post by Chris M on Feb 27, 2022 10:58:21 GMT
One might say that the DfT are obsessed
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Post by brigham on Feb 28, 2022 9:01:24 GMT
If driverless trains are the 'in thing' in foreign parts, it might be an idea to keep an eye on them; although I don't think 'keeping up with the joneses' is a good maxim for railway development.
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Post by Chris L on Feb 28, 2022 20:42:18 GMT
Weekend ridership on the Tube is now 85-90% of pre-Covid levels according to Tom Edwards of the BBC.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 1, 2022 11:14:09 GMT
i've moved a number of posts which were starting to go off topic to this thread. Please try to keep the discussion on the subject of the Covid-19 pandemic and the effects on London's Transport.
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Post by sawb on Mar 3, 2022 14:59:45 GMT
Some media outlets are reporting that TfL have apparently failed to find a title sponsor for the cross Thames cable car and it will be down to Sadiq Khan as mayor whether to continue the service, but at a loss to London tax payers.
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