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Post by stapler on Mar 21, 2020 8:11:51 GMT
One of the benefits (or otherwise) of the current situation is the huge reduction of flights, CO2 pollution, aircraft noise, etc. It's almost as bad (good? as when that volcano went up in Iceland. How has this played out at stations at Heathrow, Stansted, Luton, London City etc?
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Post by brigham on Mar 21, 2020 8:31:50 GMT
The last volcanic eruption wiped out 20 years worth of 'global warming' effort, King Canute style.
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Post by revupminster on Mar 21, 2020 9:56:01 GMT
Petrol cheap, good; Nowhere to go Bad.
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 21, 2020 10:01:31 GMT
One of the benefits (or otherwise) of the current situation is the huge reduction of flights, CO2 pollution, aircraft noise, etc. It's almost as bad (good? as when that volcano went up in Iceland. How has this played out at stations at Heathrow, Stansted, Luton, London City etc? I can only speak for Heathrow, but up until recently, people were showing up at the airport and then heading back home again once they found out that their flight had been cancelled. Given how significant the scale down in flights is going to be from next week, it won’t feel to dissimilar to the days after Christmas.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 21, 2020 11:31:58 GMT
I can’t speak for train side, but that is definitely how much is working at the moment. There is lots of willingness and flexibility in the actual product offered. The main concerns of the Unions right now is the health and safety of staff.
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 21, 2020 12:19:24 GMT
I can’t speak for train side, but that is definitely how much is working at the moment. There is lots of willingness and flexibility in the actual product offered. The main concerns of the Unions right now is the health and safety of staff. One thing that will need some careful focus is the effect on those staff who are at work. I am picking up a *lot* of resentment starting to brew, directed towards those who are off - which is largely fuelled by some (not all) of those off being people who have a reputation for poor attendance. People simply aren’t going to readily tolerate doing other people’s work for 3 months or much longer, plus presumably those individuals will also get their annual leave deferred meaning they will have a batch of leave owed once this is all over. Certainly from my experience this morning this is causing an extremely toxic atmosphere, which I can fully sympathise with. Perhaps those who are at work can have 3 months off once this is all over...
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 21, 2020 14:03:16 GMT
I've heard of some of this from friends on train side, but obviously I can't comment with any certainty. Service control isn't the same in that respect, at least not in my part of the world. Indeed, I've just been asked if I'd consider moving from late spare tomorrow to cover an early turn. Technically outside of our parameters, but obviously the right thing to do in the current circumstances. (Even though I hate early turns with a passion...!)
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Post by d7666 on Mar 21, 2020 14:15:35 GMT
Something else that might affect our Underground railway - indeed all of our railways - is the possibility of a lockdown in which London is sealed off from the rest of the country. A few days ago I thought that this was imminent, but so far it has not happened. The Central and Metropolitan lines both travel beyond the Greater London political boundary and the M25 motorway. Of course the mainline railways do too. How they would be affected remains to be seen. I am just aware of the possibility of highly unusual service disruption. Any definition of a London - by political boundary or anything else - sealed off would severely impact continued LU operations if there was a wish to continue running anything inside the sealed area. Because many essential staff live way outside. I do. So do many colleagues. Service control colleagues as well as engineers, and every day I see LU staff, including train operators I know, commuting further out than I do. Of course if things degrade, isolation of some arbitrary "London" might happen anyway. But if it does, don't expect any public transport of any form will be running by then.
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 21, 2020 14:26:48 GMT
Something else that might affect our Underground railway - indeed all of our railways - is the possibility of a lockdown in which London is sealed off from the rest of the country. A few days ago I thought that this was imminent, but so far it has not happened. The Central and Metropolitan lines both travel beyond the Greater London political boundary and the M25 motorway. Of course the mainline railways do too. How they would be affected remains to be seen. I am just aware of the possibility of highly unusual service disruption. Any definition of a London - by political boundary or anything else - sealed off would severely impact continued LU operations if there was a wish to continue running anything inside the sealed area. Because many essential staff live way outside. I do. So do many colleagues. Service control colleagues as well as engineers, and every day I see LU staff, including train operators I know, commuting further out than I do. Of course if things degrade, isolation of some arbitrary "London" might happen anyway. But if it does, don't expect any public transport of any form will be running by then. I’d say there’s a fair chance LU could be closed down within a week, if things carry on as they are. Staff are dropping like flies, and as I posted elsewhere this is starting to seriously irritate those who are in - potentially placing themselves at some (undefined and unknown) level of risk whilst others are paid to have three months off plus annual leave right through the early summer. It won’t take driver availability to drop much more before some lines won’t be able to run an end-to-end service, certainly not at anything near the frequency we’re used to. And as I’ve posted elsewhere if some other functions start getting badly affected then it won’t be viable to run in any case. Unfortunately staff are already worn down by things which have happened over the years, Fit for the Future Stations being a good example, so goodwill isn’t in massive supply at the best of times. LU could get round some of this by showing a bit of love towards those who are at work, however that relies on the powers that be actually noticing they have an issue brewing up...
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Post by North End on Mar 21, 2020 14:34:26 GMT
This thread seems to have mutated from a discussion about WTT70 to a discussion about the Covid-19 outbreak and we've already got one of those. They aren't going to consider a one train 30 minute service for the fairly obvious reason that if the duty that is supposed to be running the shuttles is uncovered and there are no spares available it becomes a no train no minute service. No different to what has served Mill Hill East reasonably well for over a decade? The crew managers would simply make sure that duty is prioritised like is done for Mill Hill, and failing that service control can always divert something to cover.
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Post by dandanthfc on Mar 21, 2020 19:31:24 GMT
Im quite close to the situation in regards to the shuttle two things im quite certain on,one being the four car shuttle cant work at the moment as it will get gapped and secondly due to the virus outbreak or maybe since the outbreak platform one at hainault has been used for more westbound services i assume this is because the shuttle service isnt going to be as frequent to what it was due to the reduction in trains whilst the virus continues and i imagine the shortage of staff due to illness and annual leaves etc,i was told that West ruislip depot has around 80 drivers and roughly 25 of these are off (although this wouldnt affect the shuttle directly) but i imagine the other depots on the line are suffering the same.
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 21, 2020 19:38:22 GMT
Im quite close to the situation in regards to the shuttle two things im quite certain on,one being the four car shuttle cant work at the moment as it will get gapped and secondly due to the virus outbreak or maybe since the outbreak platform one at hainault has been used for more westbound services i assume this is because the shuttle service isnt going to be as frequent to what it was due to the reduction in trains whilst the virus continues and i imagine the shortage of staff due to illness and annual leaves etc,i was told that West ruislip depot has around 80 drivers and roughly 25 of these are off (although this wouldnt affect the shuttle directly) but i imagine the other depots on the line are suffering the same. I think London is going to end up on more stringent measures, as it seems people simply aren’t taking heed of the advice to maintain separation. People need to realise that if we end up with a run on the NHS then people are going to die - once those beds are filled that’s it, which of course applies to anyone needing urgent treatment for any issue. The 2 metre advice isn’t really working as people can and do breach it.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 22, 2020 7:49:16 GMT
Looks like this morning is the cliff edge we’ve all been expecting. Significantly late start ups through zone 1 (some first trains are still yet to reach) and a greatly increased number of stations closed (beyond the forty), some of which are Night Tube and would in theory have staff available to a point. It was very disconcerting running through Manor House, Finsbury Park and Arsenal non-stop - I cant even think of times on strike days when Finsbury would be non-stopped. A useful fact to show why station closures were planned as they were, and something that might silence the Blackhorse Road brigade (probably not).
Jubilee, District and H&C definitely on an emergency timetable, believe the Vic is too. We have contributors who can give more detail about other lines. Met is running a reduced service anyway due to engineering works, but I’m told even that has been severely hit (I’ll find out shortly!). No Circle services at all for the whole day.
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 22, 2020 7:56:22 GMT
Looks like this morning is the cliff edge we’ve all been expecting. Significantly late start ups through zone 1 (some first trains are still yet to reach) and a greatly increased number of stations closed (beyond the forty), some of which are Night Tube and would in theory have staff available to a point. It was very disconcerting running through Manor House, Finsbury Park and Arsenal non-stop - I cant even think of times on strike days when Finsbury would be non-stopped. A useful fact to show why station closures were planned as they were, and something that might silence the Blackhorse Road brigade (probably not). Jubilee, District and H&C definitely on an emergency timetable, believe the Vic is too. We have contributors who can give more detail about other lines. Met is running a reduced service anyway due to engineering works, but I’m told even that has been severely hit (I’ll find out shortly!). No Circle services at all for the whole day. People are still not getting the message about essential journeys. Yesterday I saw plenty of groups floating around on the system stocked up with cans of alcohol (a practice which itself is not to happen on LU). Little evidence of people keeping 2 metres apart either. I suspect some heavier enforcement is going to be required. Unfortunately with the reduced services running it is going to be difficult to maintain 2 metres spacing between people unless it really is bare essential journeys for essential workers. From a personal perspective, I'm not prepared to work if users can't pay some basic respect and keep their distance.
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Post by stapler on Mar 22, 2020 8:11:03 GMT
Is work on the Liz Line going on as usual, or have operations been suspended? The the nearest comparator might be; when did work cease on the Alexandra Palace/Leytonstone-Ongar, Aldenham extensions etc after Sept 1939? I've always been surprised that work on the new Loughton station continued to completion in spring 1940, for instance. In other words, when did the essential national situation cut into the "business as usual" mantra?
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Post by Chris M on Mar 22, 2020 10:04:40 GMT
I suspect work on the Elizabeth line will depend principally on the availability of workers.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 22, 2020 10:56:19 GMT
Is work on the Liz Line going on as usual, or have operations been suspended? The the nearest comparator might be; when did work cease on the Alexandra Palace/Leytonstone-Ongar, Aldenham extensions etc after Sept 1939? I've always been surprised that work on the new Loughton station continued to completion in spring 1940, for instance. In other words, when did the essential national situation cut into the "business as usual" mantra? I suspect it cut in when large numbers of people became unavailble for work, not so much the case in 1940 when self-isolation was not required.
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Post by PiccNT on Mar 22, 2020 13:05:20 GMT
There is a lot of discussion and differing views on training on our line. Most Instructor Operators are refusing to take trainees in the cab at the moment, a small number are still happy to do so. I have been allocated a trainee from today straight out of the school. On a manual line like ours, you cannot keep your distance and therefore like the majority, I'm having to refuse to undertake cab work. Happy to do some classroom work but training is going to take a big hit that will cause its own issues.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 22, 2020 13:25:30 GMT
An extended shutdown will also run into route knowledge retention issues for even experienced staff.
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Post by PiccNT on Mar 22, 2020 13:45:06 GMT
There are so many implications as highlighted by my learned colleagues. There is also a discussion going on about night tube drivers being allowed to extend their hours voluntarily to bolster the numbers of drivers available during normal traffic hours. Although we cannot do voluntary overtime, we take this as being beyond the 36 hours that we work. On our line I believe we are moving to a 7 hour 12 minute day to make things simpler to manage. I concur with what my colleague North End said. When I was out last night, there was quite a lot of what seemed to be non essential travel.
We do though seem to be maintaining a decent service for now!
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Post by North End on Mar 22, 2020 13:59:07 GMT
We do though seem to be maintaining a decent service for now! Today seems to be fairly variable. Most lines are running a special service with reasonable intervals, worst line seems to be the Central where the number of branches is clearly making the service very difficult to manage - some 30+ minute intervals to West Ruislip and Epping at some times today. Going forward I suspect the Central is going to have to consider shuttle services on the branches. I'd imagine the weekdays should provide something slightly better simply as more drivers are scheduled to be on duty, although the flip side of this coin is more and more people are becoming unavailable. Most services are running end-to-end; apart from the Northern's reversing at Moorgate which is due to planned engineering work, the only thing of interest is the Bakerloo is reversing off both platforms at Queen's Park which isn't normally done. Availability of other operating staff also continues to be a problem, although the reduced and simple service operating means this is less of an issue than it might otherwise be - for example in control rooms it's practicable for signallers to man more than one desk at a time). As alluded to elsewhere things like training and licensing will be problematic in time.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 22, 2020 16:15:21 GMT
The Met today wasn’t doing too badly all things considered, although no doubt the special working helped. Two cancellations all morning (sadly consistently dropping on Cheshams and not the staff to divert to cover). Like the Northern, planned works meant short trips - Watford-Harrow and Amersham/Chesham/Uxbridge-Wembley.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 22, 2020 18:31:34 GMT
Looks like this morning is the cliff edge we’ve all been expecting. Significantly late start ups through zone 1 (some first trains are still yet to reach) and a greatly increased number of stations closed (beyond the forty), some of which are Night Tube and would in theory have staff available to a point. It was very disconcerting running through Manor House, Finsbury Park and Arsenal non-stop - I cant even think of times on strike days when Finsbury would be non-stopped. A useful fact to show why station closures were planned as they were, and something that might silence the Blackhorse Road brigade (probably not). Jubilee, District and H&C definitely on an emergency timetable, believe the Vic is too. We have contributors who can give more detail about other lines. Met is running a reduced service anyway due to engineering works, but I’m told even that has been severely hit (I’ll find out shortly!). No Circle services at all for the whole day. People are still not getting the message about essential journeys. Yesterday I saw plenty of groups floating around on the system stocked up with cans of alcohol (a practice which itself is not to happen on LU). Little evidence of people keeping 2 metres apart either. I suspect some heavier enforcement is going to be required.Unfortunately with the reduced services running it is going to be difficult to maintain 2 metres spacing between people unless it really is bare essential journeys for essential workers. From a personal perspective, I'm not prepared to work if users can't pay some basic respect and keep their distance. How would "heavier enforcement" be possible? For starters Oyster cards, etc. do not identify if the bearer is a "key worker" or whether their journey is essential. Secondly we don't have enough staff to check everyone coming onto the Tube but even if we did they're not bouncers. Police are also short of numbers and can't be at every station. Third there are plenty of interchanges where passengers coming from other lines with non-gated/staffed stations can walk straight onto the Tube We can't make the system "watertight".
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 22, 2020 20:06:25 GMT
People are still not getting the message about essential journeys. Yesterday I saw plenty of groups floating around on the system stocked up with cans of alcohol (a practice which itself is not to happen on LU). Little evidence of people keeping 2 metres apart either. I suspect some heavier enforcement is going to be required.Unfortunately with the reduced services running it is going to be difficult to maintain 2 metres spacing between people unless it really is bare essential journeys for essential workers. From a personal perspective, I'm not prepared to work if users can't pay some basic respect and keep their distance. How would "heavier enforcement" be possible? For starters Oyster cards, etc. do not identify if the bearer is a "key worker" or whether their journey is essential. Secondly we don't have enough staff to check everyone coming onto the Tube but even if we did they're not bouncers. Police are also short of numbers and can't be at every station. Third there are plenty of interchanges where passengers coming from other lines with non-gated/staffed stations can walk straight onto the Tube We can't make the system "watertight". I agree it isn’t something practicable for LU to enforce, it should be happening well before they get as far as a station - as is the case in some other countries. Unfortunately my experience thus far is people simply aren’t respecting the 2 metres guidance. Despite the one this morning receiving a *very* considerable piece of my mind and indeed very nearly ejected from LU premises altogether due to his bad attitude, the problem I have is that it’s more or less impossible to actually prevent someone else encroaching upon one’s own personal space before it’s potentially too late.
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Post by revupminster on Mar 23, 2020 7:10:15 GMT
One of the side benefits (sic) is that local authorities in England are allowing pensioners on buses free before 9.30, a luxury London pensioners have had for years. Was it a political or medical decision? as medics where I live are set against supermarkets setting aside set hours for pensioners as guaranteed way of spreading the virus.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 23, 2020 7:14:59 GMT
Just a gentle reminder that posts on this thread, as per the OP guidleines, must reflect the impact on the London transport system. It isn't a thread for general discussion of Covid-19. There are plenty of social media and forum outlets for that elsewhere if required. Posts will be moved to a non-viewable area if they don't follow the rules. Many thanks everybody!
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Post by superteacher on Mar 23, 2020 8:45:20 GMT
Seems like a sparse service is operating on many lines this morning. Even though there are less people using the services, this is causing them to be more packed.
One wonders how long a service can be sustained for, given that the levels are decreasing on a daily basis.
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Post by plunet on Mar 23, 2020 8:48:24 GMT
What would usually be an event for some is that the Met Line north curve at Watford will be in regular service from today, although I do not suggest anyone who has no good reason to travel goes out for a ride.
Chiltern is also reducing their service to hourly between Aylesbury and Marylebone via Amsersham with two extra services Monday-Friday in the morning and evening "peaks" to make a 30min service.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 23, 2020 9:10:15 GMT
In Paris the Metro is running a 30% service except on the driverless Line 14 (40%) and Line 1 (60%). RER A 30%, RER B 60% and buses 40%. Six stations are closed.
In Berlin all services on buses, U-Bahn and S-bahn are running 50%. Passengers can no longer board buses by the front door to keep them away from the driver.
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Post by superteacher on Mar 23, 2020 9:21:12 GMT
In Paris the Metro is running a 30% service except on the driverless Line 14 (40%) and Line 1 (60%). RER A 30%, RER B 60% and buses 40%. Six stations are closed. In Berlin all services on buses, U-Bahn and S-bahn are running 50%. Passengers can no longer board buses by the front door to keep them away from the driver. The difference is that in Paris, the restrictions on movement of people mean that those levels of service can probably cope with demand. In London, with the instruction not to travel only being "advice", the trains are much busier.
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