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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 19, 2020 19:25:44 GMT
Left Leytonstone around 4:20pm to travel to White City "on the cushions" today, I don't think there were more than half a dozen people in the car I was in at any one time. "Social distancing" without any problem.
On the plus side got my duties sorted out for next week, all normal as per WTT70 but we'll see what happens.
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Post by d7666 on Mar 19, 2020 19:27:36 GMT
I think it’s really important to reiterate that the primary reason for reducing services and closing stations is down to staff availability. It is much better to run something that is sustainable and can be advertised than not do that. TfL are fully aware of the benefits of not reducing services for any other reasons. Over the last 48 hours availability across all operating departments (public facing and not) has really dipped - and will of course dip more. Don't forget us engineers too you can't run any of it for extended periods without us! -- Nick
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 19, 2020 20:12:56 GMT
What I'm trying to say is - it is in the interest of the people who have to take the tube to have frequent trains that are nearly empty. It's the only way to have working 'social distancing'. Anything that forces people closer than 2 metres apart is to their detriment. Yes, and LU is aware of that. But quite simply you can’t run a train without a driver plus the network of frontline and back-office staff which complete the chain. With staff dropping like flies isolating due to symptoms, shielding due to pre-existing health issues and no doubt shortly staff off due to childcare difficulties, there comes a point where it’s physically impossible to run a partocular train or open a particular station. LU doesn’t have the option the mainline does of running a reduced service but with extended train lengths (I do realise many mainline services nowadays do run at maximum length). I think manager availability may start to be a problem too. One depot I know has 3x crew managers off for 12 weeks due to shielding, 1 off self isolating due to symptoms, 1 off with childcare and 1 starting to develop a cough as we speak. On the plus side the current climate may make people more receptive to cancelling any annual leave booked, but do people particularly *want* to come to work in a city which is fast becoming a health hazard? Especially those at the older end of the age spectrum. It’s always worth reiterating that loss of service control staff it also potentially terminal. A few unavailables might be coverable with overtime, and there’s a few people with the relevant expertise and licensed that can step in particularly on the signalling side, but lose a complete room of controllers and that railway will be in serious trouble.
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Post by greatkingrat on Mar 19, 2020 22:00:01 GMT
Overground timetable from Monday
3tph Stratford - Richmond 3tph Stratford - Clapham Jn
On the ELL all New Cross trains are cancelled.
West Anglia - 2tph to Enfield Town all day (no peak extras)
No change to Goblin / DC at present.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 19, 2020 22:07:54 GMT
I think it’s really important to reiterate that the primary reason for reducing services and closing stations is down to staff availability. It is much better to run something that is sustainable and can be advertised than not do that. TfL are fully aware of the benefits of not reducing services for any other reasons. Over the last 48 hours availability across all operating departments (public facing and not) has really dipped - and will of course dip more. Don't forget us engineers too you can't run any of it for extended periods without us! -- Nick I was absolutely meaning engineers too! Was trying to think of the most concise way - this equally applies to the schedulers working from home, the cleaners - all the people that might not immediately spring to mind. It’s always worth reiterating that loss of service control staff it also potentially terminal. A few unavailables might be coverable with overtime, and there’s a few people with the relevant expertise and licensed that can step in particularly on the signalling side, but lose a complete room of controllers and that railway will be in serious trouble. There are some locations that are rapidly reaching this point. There's also a pause on all training - including refresher training - which complicates matters. There is significant disruption ahead purely in "operational" terms, no matter what the Govt. (local or national) might suggest. But every single one of us who is able to work is doing our absolute best to run as much as we can as reliably can. There's lots of staff who have offered to work extra shifts or cancel leave to keep London moving.
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Post by zbang on Mar 19, 2020 22:59:26 GMT
There are some locations that are rapidly reaching this point. There's also a pause on all training - including refresher training - which complicates matters. How much of that falls on legal requirements (as opposed to contractual or TfL's own requirements*)? Assuming an equal spread of re-certifications/etc around the year, ~8% of the certified staff will "age out" each month and that's an awful lot to make up in coming months. It would seem that at least part of the training regimen would count as essential work.
*I'm kind of assuming that TfL can waive their own req's if there's reason and that contract terms can be negotiated (although a strike approved, that's not likely).
(Asks someone who as almost no knowledge of the regulatory environment here.)
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Post by Chris M on Mar 19, 2020 23:12:09 GMT
In terms of the minimum staffing levels for sub-surface stations, that's a legal requirement and cannot be waived. All legislation can of course be amended on a temporary or permanent basis if the right people do the right paperwork (which might mean MPs in some cases), but (iirc) these regulations emerged from the aftermath of the King's Cross fire, so I would be surprised if there was much desire to alter them, even temporarily.
In the immediate term, the pause of training will release staff back into the pool of those able to keep the system running. I would hope (but don't know) that refresher training would be scheduled in advance of licenses expiring (e.g. refreshing 1-3 months earlier than absolutely necessary) which would give a bit of flexibility for scenarios like this.
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Post by d7666 on Mar 20, 2020 0:28:57 GMT
In terms of the minimum staffing levels for sub-surface stations, that's a legal requirement and cannot be waived. All legislation can of course be amended on a temporary or permanent basis if the right people do the right paperwork (which might mean MPs in some cases), but (iirc) these regulations emerged from the aftermath of the King's Cross fire, so I would be surprised if there was much desire to alter them, even temporarily. In the immediate term, the pause of training will release staff back into the pool of those able to keep the system running. I would hope (but don't know) that refresher training would be scheduled in advance of licenses expiring (e.g. refreshing 1-3 months earlier than absolutely necessary) which would give a bit of flexibility for scenarios like this. I would certainly hope some of the licensing / training could be relaxed where needed ..... the problem is getting people to waive these things in case at some future point they end up being cross examined by QCs .
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londoner
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Post by londoner on Mar 20, 2020 3:13:31 GMT
Could more drivers be made available if they closed the Circle line (and moved onto H&C, district if necessary)?
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Post by superteacher on Mar 20, 2020 5:27:25 GMT
Circle to H&C yes as they use the same drivers and roster. But they would need to be route trained for the District.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 20, 2020 7:32:53 GMT
Lines (except Waterloo & City) will be gradually moving onto a maximum 15tph DAILY central area service, except later start/early finish Sundays, a plan which has been agreed with the Trade Unions.
The H&C Circle are the first to migrate onto a restricted service of 5tph on each, 27 train service. (Circle operating traditional circle service)
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 20, 2020 10:53:40 GMT
Apparently recent research suggests that less than half of employed people are able to work from home and less than a quarter of people who earn £20k or less.
Unless the government starts paying people to stay at home the low paid are going to keep working because they can't afford not to.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 20, 2020 11:21:17 GMT
Absolutely. I've got a fair few friends who fall into this category. They're sensible people who want to stay at home for the health of themselves and others, but they can't afford to. If they don't work, they can't pay their bills, and it becomes a vicious cycle. For them, travelling is essential. There needs to be firmer assurances in place from the top level; I think it's very easy for us transport workers to forget we have it very good. Some companies are withdrawing sick pay or only offer SSP too, for instance. On a lighter note, I've spent my last days of leave really productively and made a handy little tool for anybody with a burning transport question: istempleopen.co.uk
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Post by North End on Mar 20, 2020 11:58:08 GMT
Absolutely. I've got a fair few friends who fall into this category. They're sensible people who want to stay at home for the health of themselves and others, but they can't afford to. If they don't work, they can't pay their bills, and it becomes a vicious cycle. For them, travelling is essential. There needs to be firmer assurances in place from the top level; I think it's very easy for us transport workers to forget we have it very good. Some companies are withdrawing sick pay or only offer SSP too, for instance. On a lighter note, I've spent my last days of leave really productively and made a handy little tool for anybody with a burning transport question: istempleopen.co.ukUnfortunately we have all lived through an era when people have been disincentivised to save, either through physically not having enough spare to do so, or it simply not being worthwhile. In the medium term this has to change - living payslip to payslip leaves society very vulnerable when there’s a crisis. By way of returning to topic, Northern Line plans to continue running the normal service with cancellations as required for the time being, although consideration is being given to going to special service once the normal timetable is no longer sustainable (I suspect that point is now very close indeed). The focus is now simply to provide an even service and some kind of managed start and close (in other words protecting the evening service and last trains). As hinted before, emergency schedules are now being drawn up. I’m unsure if this is by duty schedules or more locally, but won’t be implemented for some time yet.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 20, 2020 12:03:54 GMT
Duty Schedulers are working from home to compile emergency schedules and timetables for all lines. I believe there’s 9 of them trying to combine 6+ months work into a matter of days. An uneviable task.
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 20, 2020 12:11:30 GMT
Duty Schedulers are working from home to compile emergency schedules and timetables for all lines. I believe there’s 9 of them trying to combine 6+ months work into a matter of days. An uneviable task. Yes very much so. Having said that, with the way things are going the schedule is probably going to be fairly sparse! I’m also guessing that duty schedules might be constructed around existing duty start and finish times, in order to get round the 28 days issue. With a heavily reduced service this shouldn’t be a problem, and providing there’s plenty of spare duties incorporated then this should allow for continuing and fluctuating levels of non attendance.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 20, 2020 15:46:28 GMT
I would hope that changing of adverts on the network will be one of those tasks determined to be non-essential and thus deferred until better times. This means that some advertisers will not be getting their adverts displayed despite having paid for that which is just one more thing that might have financial implications for TfL.
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Post by afarlie on Mar 20, 2020 17:48:48 GMT
Just wondering how quickly someone can do some "Is your journey essential?" posters in Johnston...
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 20, 2020 17:49:12 GMT
I would hope that changing of adverts on the network will be one of those tasks determined to be non-essential and thus deferred until better times. This means that some advertisers will not be getting their adverts displayed despite having paid for that which is just one more thing that might have financial implications for TfL. I’ve heard it said that rolling stock depots are also suffering from staff availability issues, whilst it’s theoretically possible to dovetail crew and rolling stock cancellations, in reality it’s almost impossible to do on a large scale. This would also tie in with some mainline operators sidelining fleets, as we’ve already seen with the GWR class 143s. Might see some other mainline non-core fleets stored.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 20, 2020 19:47:46 GMT
I wonder if the stations chosen to close are partly because of local staffing issues? I am surprised to see that the Hainault - Woodford shuttle stations are still open - especially Roding Valley! Do you mean you're surprised that the shuttle is still operating, as opposed to the stations still being open? I don't think any of the stations on the shuttle section (from a brief glance at Google images - I've never actually traveled over this section) are sub-surface, so they won't have a minimum staffing level to keep them open. In part at least it looks like they're choosing one out of a pair of stations to close, so that all staff available are utilized to keep the priority station open. Eg. Covent Garden closed so that staff report to work at Leicester Square, Goodge Street closed so that the staff are used at Warren Street. Blackhorse Road (if and when it actually closes) will be in order to keep Walthamstow Central open In a way I am surprised that the shuttle is still operating - but having seen messages since mine I have a better understanding of some of the issues so can understand why some stations have been selected for closure over others. Whilst its true that Goblin passengers can switch to / from the Victoria line at Walthamstow, this interchange is less convenient (out of station interchange) and includes some backtracking - so that they must pass through Blackhorse Road twice!
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 20, 2020 20:12:10 GMT
I was watching the weather forecast today and noted that next week will be bright and sunny. Just the weather I wanted - as I've realised that I do not have any video footage of S stock trains at Kew Gardens and if I'm fortunate I might even see one passing a 378 - even better, one in the new revised livery. Being spring this is a good time to go as the birds are singing and many of the trees either starting to open their leaves or still with blossom. Kew Gardens is one of a handful of stations where I still have some unseen 1990's video footage. Alas, this virus problem means that it can't happen this spring - as my journey would not be for work or medical reasons it would be wrong for me to travel all that way at the present time. Instead I'm staying at home, hoping that it will be possible later this year or in 2021. As someone else mentioned Blackhorse Road is on a "twinned" "Area" with Walthamstow Central but its also part of a "Cover Group" that covers the six stations down to Highbury & Islington, all six stations are Section 12s and all are interchanges. Out of those six Blackhorse Road has the least number of passengers six and when there was an overtime ban a few years ago it was always the station that management chose to close first. As for the other stations you'd have to check which "Areas" and "Cover Groups" they are in and I can't be bothered running through them all. Another factor is how close they are to another station e.g. Charing Cross is closed but Embankment is a short walk down Villiers Street, ditto Chancery Lane/Holborn and Redbridge/Snaresbrook Roding Valley, Chigwell and Grange Hill are not "Section 12s" and can be left open without any staff. There is absolutely no reason why the stations will not reopen once there are enough staff. re: Redbridge/Snaresbrook, actually its Wanstead and Snaresbrook which are relatively close to each other. But still not *that* close as otherwise Wanstead is unlikely to have been built.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 20, 2020 21:05:40 GMT
Indeed, Wanstead not Redbridge (what was I thinking?)
Word on Twitter is that Blackhorse Road will close tomorrow but there are suggestions that the London Overground platforms will be reopened at some point while the Victoria Line platforms will stay closed.
By coincidence I'm doing the Shuttles from 9:30pm for two hours (three trips), I'm not expecting a lot of passengers...
As for "key workers only" it's pretty obvious its being ignored and there's no way on enforcing it. On top of that they've just closed the schools, colleges, etc. so now there are about a quarter of a million teenagers with Zip Oyster Cards and time on their hands.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 20, 2020 21:46:22 GMT
Something else that might affect our Underground railway - indeed all of our railways - is the possibility of a lockdown in which London is sealed off from the rest of the country.
A few days ago I thought that this was imminent, but so far it has not happened. The Central and Metropolitan lines both travel beyond the Greater London political boundary and the M25 motorway. Of course the mainline railways do too. How they would be affected remains to be seen. I am just aware of the possibility of highly unusual service disruption.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 20, 2020 21:57:46 GMT
Indeed, Wanstead not Redbridge (what was I thinking?) Word on Twitter is that Blackhorse Road will close tomorrow but there are suggestions that the London Overground platforms will be reopened at some point while the Victoria Line platforms will stay closed. By coincidence I'm doing the Shuttles from 9:30pm for two hours (three trips), I'm not expecting a lot of passengers... As for "key workers only" it's pretty obvious its being ignored and there's no way on enforcing it. On top of that they've just closed the schools, colleges, etc. so now there are about a quarter of a million teenagers with Zip Oyster Cards and time on their hands. re: Wanstead / Readbridge, - yes well such things happen! I feel pretty sure that I've done likewise. As for the question of who follows the edict to stay at home and who does not, there are some places in Europe where people are being fined for breaking the curfew. Of course children, who do not have much money anyway, will not worry about potential fines. A curfew can be frustrating - even more so if the mobile phone and or Internet went down (this happened in my area a few days ago - over-use, I suppose). Maybe I am fortunate in that I have the proverbial 1001 things to do so am not sitting at home bored witless.
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Post by stapler on Mar 20, 2020 21:59:59 GMT
Yes, sps, passports at Theydon Bois rather than Pimlico....
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 20, 2020 23:25:55 GMT
Duty Schedulers are working from home to compile emergency schedules and timetables for all lines. I believe there’s 9 of them trying to combine 6+ months work into a matter of days. An uneviable task. A very similar scenario for the schedules overseen by London Area Control Centre. The scaling down of skyward operations is unparalleled in peace time records. In short, the skies over London will be noticeably quieter from next week.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 20, 2020 23:49:21 GMT
well now... no more congestion charge, low emission zone, etc... (at least for a while)
Although not directly related to London, in recent days I've seen tweets about the situation in Venice, Italy where less boat traffic means that the canals are becoming cleaner - with fish seen even in inner-city waters and somewhere there was even a dolphin!
Having seen what is possible, I would hope that once this virus emergency is over humankind makes a greater effort to reducing air / river / canal etc pollution
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Post by Chris M on Mar 21, 2020 2:15:41 GMT
Although not directly related to London, in recent days I've seen tweets about the situation in Venice, Italy where less boat traffic means that the canals are becoming cleaner - with fish seen even in inner-city waters and somewhere there was even a dolphin! Having seen what is possible, I would hope that once this virus emergency is over humankind makes a greater effort to reducing air / river / canal etc pollution While I absolutely agree with your final sentence, the visibility of the canal water in Venice is not down to pollution but rather the lack of motor boat traffic means that the muddy/sandy bottom is not being churned up.
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Post by revupminster on Mar 21, 2020 6:51:26 GMT
Seems a strange choice of stations to close. Lancaster Gate and Covent Garden yes because there is no social distancing in a lift. But Bow Road which is a pretty open station no.
GWR from Monday due to reduced passengers are cutting back to London - Plymouth every hour with a shuttle operating between Plymouth and Penzance. Paignton-Exmouth to hourly from half hourly. Barnstaple will only operate in the peaks and plenty more reductions.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Mar 21, 2020 7:20:02 GMT
Seems a strange choice of stations to close. Lancaster Gate and Covent Garden yes because there is no social distancing in a lift. But Bow Road which is a pretty open station no. GWR from Monday due to reduced passengers are cutting back to London - Plymouth every hour with a shuttle operating between Plymouth and Penzance. Paignton-Exmouth to hourly from half hourly. Barnstaple will only operate in the peaks and plenty more reductions. No. Bow Road is a Section 12, minimum staffing level of 2 at all times, both of who would have to be familiarised with the station and one of who would have to be a Customer Service Manager or higher. This is not about social distancing, this is about the Fire Precautions (Sub-surface Railway Stations) Regulations 2009
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