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Post by johnlinford on Mar 30, 2021 7:48:13 GMT
Ah yes, I forget about the training. It surprises me that a year in to all this a way to resume it has not been found...
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 30, 2021 11:43:11 GMT
The problems on the Met are indeed directly related to a lack of service controllers.
There hasn’t been any meaningful service control training for the past year and so as people retire etc the resulting vacancies start to bite.
Service controller training requires hands on close proximity working between the instructor controller and trainee controller; certainly in the early stages at least. It’s impossible to do this sort of training whilst maintaining social distancing.
With many of us getting vaccinated now, hopefully the social distancing requirements will ease enough to allow close contact training to resume though of course nobody knows when that time will come. Then, as is much the case with night tube, the lengthy training process means that there won’t be any quick gains once training does resume.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 30, 2021 18:19:13 GMT
I don't know, but I would be surprised if any signallers or control staff were furloughed, but if they were I can't imagine they still are. If they are on the CEV list (Clinically Extremely Vulnerable) then it is quite possible they will have been placed on furlough whilst the shielding advice is in place for CEV patients.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 30, 2021 20:16:42 GMT
re: people starting to travel by train again, a few days ago I mentioned to a relative my desire to do so 'asap' and received a horrified response along the tone of writing my will before I board the train as they are 'horribly infected / infectious'.
Their uninformed 'fake news' comment points to the mountain that public transport has to climb to get ordinary passengers back onboard.
I see using public transport as less risky than visiting a supermarket with many closely spaced aisles.
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Post by johnlinford on Mar 30, 2021 21:01:56 GMT
Service controller training requires hands on close proximity working between the instructor controller and trainee controller; certainly in the early stages at least. It’s impossible to do this sort of training whilst maintaining social distancing. Filming of TV and films has managed to continue with close contact scenes through intensive testing regimes, daily health declarations and temperature checks (PCR test every 4 days, starting a week before contact cohort begins, advised to isolate as much as possible outside of cohort) with very few cases of on-set transmission. It is a sizeable cost, however at some point so is failing to run the service due to lack of training - it can't be beyond the wit of man to work something out to allow training by now.
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 30, 2021 22:17:15 GMT
Service controller training requires hands on close proximity working between the instructor controller and trainee controller; certainly in the early stages at least. It’s impossible to do this sort of training whilst maintaining social distancing. Filming of TV and films has managed to continue with close contact scenes through intensive testing regimes, daily health declarations and temperature checks (PCR test every 4 days, starting a week before contact cohort begins, advised to isolate as much as possible outside of cohort) with very few cases of on-set transmission. It is a sizeable cost, however at some point so is failing to run the service due to lack of training - it can't be beyond the wit of man to work something out to allow training by now. The logistics around social distancing are just one part of what was already complex broader issue that the UK transport industry has been grappling with for some time. I'm sure many on here will mention the sustained under-recruiting and poor retainership of qualified staff at certain grades which were already making staffing resilience within certain grades difficult. Covid-19 has made that difficult situation more or less untenable. Even if all the difficulties around close quarters training can be overcome (which the simple fact is some simply cannot be), the years of skills shortages that we are seeing in the workplace will still continue to affect organisations like London Underground. Virtually every company involved with transport operations in this country is facing similar issues, Covid-19 has magnified issues that have been years in the making.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 30, 2021 23:57:51 GMT
Even if all the difficulties around close quarters training can be overcome (which the simple fact is some simply cannot be), the years of skills shortages that we are seeing in the workplace will still continue to affect organisations like London Underground. Virtually every company involved with transport operations in this country is facing similar issues, Covid-19 has magnified issues that have been years in the making. While TfL is being forced by central government to live hand-to-mouth it lacks the ability to even really think about fixing these issues for the medium term, let alone actually resolving them long term.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 31, 2021 0:27:34 GMT
I don't know, but I would be surprised if any signallers or control staff were furloughed, but if they were I can't imagine they still are. If they are on the CEV list (Clinically Extremely Vulnerable) then it is quite possible they will have been placed on furlough whilst the shielding advice is in place for CEV patients. As these staff eventually return to work, will they require a period of refresher training before they can resume normal duties? That all adds to the delay before a resumption of service as normal!
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Post by Chris L on Mar 31, 2021 4:00:24 GMT
If they are on the CEV list (Clinically Extremely Vulnerable) then it is quite possible they will have been placed on furlough whilst the shielding advice is in place for CEV patients. As these staff eventually return to work, will they require a period of refresher training before they can resume normal duties? That all adds to the delay before a resumption of service as normal! Shielding ends tomorrow.
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Dstock7080
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 31, 2021 6:22:48 GMT
“high risk” category can still choose not to return and will continue to receive LU sick pay until 21 June
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 31, 2021 8:37:53 GMT
Filming of TV and films has managed to continue with close contact scenes through intensive testing regimes, daily health declarations and temperature checks (PCR test every 4 days, starting a week before contact cohort begins, advised to isolate as much as possible outside of cohort) with very few cases of on-set transmission. It is a sizeable cost, however at some point so is failing to run the service due to lack of training - it can't be beyond the wit of man to work something out to allow training by now. With the greatest of respect, a line control room is not a TV or film set. LU already has a testing process in place for training purposes (ie, in cab training) but the way in which line controller training is carried out is very much hands on - quite literally. In the early stages of training instructors and trainees will use the same telephones and radio handsets for example. Granted equipment can be wiped clean but how practical is that when dealing with an incident in real time - particularly if the instructor needs to make a timely intervention? I could list more examples similar to that above but I hope you get the idea of what I'm saying. Just because something works in one environment, it doesn't mean it'll work in another!
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Post by alpinejohn on Mar 31, 2021 11:16:20 GMT
Filming of TV and films has managed to continue with close contact scenes through intensive testing regimes, daily health declarations and temperature checks (PCR test every 4 days, starting a week before contact cohort begins, advised to isolate as much as possible outside of cohort) with very few cases of on-set transmission. It is a sizeable cost, however at some point so is failing to run the service due to lack of training - it can't be beyond the wit of man to work something out to allow training by now. With the greatest of respect, a line control room is not a TV or film set. LU already has a testing process in place for training purposes (ie, in cab training) but the way in which line controller training is carried out is very much hands on - quite literally. In the early stages of training instructors and trainees will use the same telephones and radio handsets for example. Granted equipment can be wiped clean but how practical is that when dealing with an incident in real time - particularly if the instructor needs to make a timely intervention? I could list more examples similar to that above but I hope you get the idea of what I'm saying. Just because something works in one environment, it doesn't mean it'll work in another! I can understand the mounting frustration of both staff and passengers(customers if you must). The elephant in this room is undoubtedly money - or lack of any. I recall seeing a video of the new SSR control centre for the Thales system which seems a step up from past control rooms but as has been pointed out the current "training" approach is to mostly do it live in the real control room but under supervision - which inevitably means close proximity. However am I right in assuming that the current problems are actually in the rural sections of the SSR which are not yet supervised by that spacious new control centre and it is availability of legacy control room staff where the problem lies? So perhaps the time has come for TFL to realise this problem is not going to go away and they really need to create a covid friendly training suite specifically for legacy signalling controllers basically with mock ups of the legacy signalling controls which will allow instructors to be completely separated by Perspex screens but with good quality audio links to allow easy communication. Obviously building a legacy system simulator would not be cheap - so hopefully they can simply seek tenders to demonstrate to Whitehall that providing the funds to complete the 4LM/SSR signalling upgrade asap is actually cheaper than paying for custom legacy training facilities. Otherwise Whitehall will continue to play the "not my problem" card.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 31, 2021 11:47:29 GMT
Even with an infinite pot of money and approval today, such a simulator could not come online for a couple of months absolute minimum, longer if there isn't a suitable room currently sitting empty. If you need to design the simulation software then make that probably at least 6 months. You will then need to train the trainers, given that the training environment is different to what they've used previously - being extremely conservative that's another week minimum. In the real world even emergency approval would take a minimum of 2 months, so you couldn't start training in this suite for at least 5 months more realistically 12 months, by which time there will be less need for legacy system training due to 4LM progress, and reduced or no need for social distancing measures.
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North End
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Post by North End on Mar 31, 2021 12:05:21 GMT
Even with an infinite pot of money and approval today, such a simulator could not come online for a couple of months absolute minimum, longer if there isn't a suitable room currently sitting empty. If you need to design the simulation software then make that probably at least 6 months. You will then need to train the trainers, given that the training environment is different to what they've used previously - being extremely conservative that's another week minimum. In the real world even emergency approval would take a minimum of 2 months, so you couldn't start training in this suite for at least 5 months more realistically 12 months, by which time there will be less need for legacy system training due to 4LM progress, and reduced or no need for social distancing measures. Something like the TBTC / CBTC simulators are very realistic - each of the modern control rooms has a simulator thrown in as part of it. Certainly Highgate’s training room is massive, so no problem social distancing there. But the problem is this is largely for signalling. The controller role is very different, and much harder to train for as it has to account variables which are only found in the real world. The rooms which have a combined controller/signaller setup have a massive advantage, as they can train someone on the signaller function only, and then use them to cover a live signal desk whilst releasing a qualified controller to cover that function. Hammersmith unfortunately doesn’t have this setup, so is suffering accordingly. Remember also that to train someone up as a TBTC / CBTC signaller is essentially coming up to three months, by the time the person has done their core training, line specific training, and had at least a couple of weeks on the real desk. And that probably assumes someone already has a reasonable knowledge of the line, job roles etc. Where they are suffering on top of this is that Hammersmith has gained a bad reputation as a place to work, for various reasons, and that’s not helping attract people to work there.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 31, 2021 14:41:33 GMT
However am I right in assuming that the current problems are actually in the rural sections of the SSR which are not yet supervised by that spacious new control centre and it is availability of legacy control room staff where the problem lies? The problem lies with the Line Controllers for the Metropolitan Line which are based at Hammersmith. Legacy signalling is controlled by Signal Operators at Rayners Lane, Harrow, Rickmansworth and Amersham - who in themselves are Supervised by the Line Controllers.
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Post by philthetube on Mar 31, 2021 17:28:29 GMT
Service controller training requires hands on close proximity working between the instructor controller and trainee controller; certainly in the early stages at least. It’s impossible to do this sort of training whilst maintaining social distancing. Filming of TV and films has managed to continue with close contact scenes through intensive testing regimes, daily health declarations and temperature checks (PCR test every 4 days, starting a week before contact cohort begins, advised to isolate as much as possible outside of cohort) with very few cases of on-set transmission. It is a sizeable cost, however at some point so is failing to run the service due to lack of training - it can't be beyond the wit of man to work something out to allow training by now. If an actor gets covid you stop filming for a couple of weeks while relevant people isolate, if a trainee gets covid and you send the relevant people home, I don't need to finish this sentence,
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Post by davidr1986 on Apr 1, 2021 13:18:20 GMT
The Waterloo and City is expected to officially reopen on the 21st of June barring any problems (peak times only) with 12 trains an hour
06:45 - 10:00 (AM peak) 16:30 - 19:30 (PM peak)
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Post by jimbo on Apr 1, 2021 19:16:56 GMT
“high risk” category can still choose not to return and will continue to receive LU sick pay until 21 June SNAP!!! Doesn't allow any refresher training time, though!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 3, 2021 14:18:51 GMT
“high risk” category can still choose not to return and will continue to receive LU sick pay until 21 June SNAP!!! Doesn't allow any refresher training time, though! I've been down the Waterloo & City twice in the last 12 months, as long as we go down there to do a few trips and some shunt moves every six months we don't need refresher training
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 3, 2021 17:56:47 GMT
So there is some form of 'shadow' running to retain driver competency and presumably there's a maintenance benefit in using assets?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 3, 2021 18:19:39 GMT
Indeed. Leytonstone has 98 roster weeks most of which have W&C duties mixed in with Central Line duties (most have one W&C and four Central, some have two and three, a few have three and two).
There are around 140 TOps and any of us could be required to work the W&C at any time. Retraining us all from scratch would be a nightmare so management had the foresight (for once!!!!) of sending us down to the W&C before our six months elapsed.
We don't do a full shift down there, no timetable as such, we just bring a train out, run it up and down for a bit then put it away. I was there early March with two other TOps, between us we moved all five trains and did just about every possible move you could do; it was like shuffling cards with trains
Night Tube drivers are not W&C trained
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Post by sawb on Apr 3, 2021 18:24:36 GMT
Pre-covid, there was of course the big Northern line shutdown scheduled for this summer. Is that still going ahead this year, or has that been deferred? Was the Waterloo & City line planned to operate any additional services prior to covid for this work and will they still run?
(Apologies if this is better off elsewhere)
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Post by jimbo on Apr 3, 2021 19:29:26 GMT
SNAP!!! Doesn't allow any refresher training time, though! I've been down the Waterloo & City twice in the last 12 months, as long as we go down there to do a few trips and some shunt moves every six months we don't need refresher training I was thinking of those high risk people returning on 21 June, and not just W&C but control rooms, and generally.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 3, 2021 21:24:39 GMT
Whomever is in charge of working it out (and I haven't foggiest who that would be) has (hopefully!) calculated that there will be enough drivers and control room staff, etc available to run a useful service on both W&C and Central, without needing to use anyone who needs and has not yet had refresher training. Obviously things are not completely within their control, as between now and then there could be a covid outbreak that takes out a significant number of staff, which is why this isn't being shouted about and is only "expected" to happen.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 3, 2021 23:01:50 GMT
I've been down the Waterloo & City twice in the last 12 months, as long as we go down there to do a few trips and some shunt moves every six months we don't need refresher training I was thinking of those high risk people returning on 21 June, and not just W&C but control rooms, and generally. There aren't many high risk people in the Waterloo control room but then there aren't many people in the Waterloo control room at any time, mostly because there's not a lot of controlling to do! The busiest I've ever seen it is three people in there at the same time and one of them was making the tea. My local ASLEF Rep says 21 June is a rumour, nothing has been confirmed and London Underground is by far the worst place I have ever worked in my entire life for rumours.
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londoner
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Post by londoner on Apr 5, 2021 15:07:18 GMT
For anyone interested, there is a graph in the following video talk from a current employee at TFL (at 17:30) which shows how passenger numbers have changed during the pandemic for both underground and buses:
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 6, 2021 20:28:15 GMT
Things are getting busier... see tweet:
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Post by sawb on Apr 6, 2021 21:00:29 GMT
Things are getting busier... see tweet: Not sure this is entirely accurate to be fair, the Picc's not had the best of evenings, with delays due to an earlier customer incident. Not sure if the service was partially suspended at all at any point, but having just checked the service status, it's still recovering now. Having looked at the tweet, my guess is this was at the height of the disruption from said customer incident, but I could be wrong.
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Post by johnlinford on Apr 6, 2021 21:12:40 GMT
Yeah, I had a work-required underground journey on the jubilee a month or so ago that was about that busy. I was surprised how weird that felt given I used to have an hour long Central commute every day...
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Post by superteacher on Apr 6, 2021 21:16:00 GMT
Things are getting busier... see tweet: Not sure this is entirely accurate to be fair, the Picc's not had the best of evenings, with delays due to an earlier customer incident. Not sure if the service was partially suspended at all at any point, but having just checked the service status, it's still recovering now. Having looked at the tweet, my guess is this was at the height of the disruption from said customer incident, but I could be wrong. The service was suspended from Hyde Park Corner to Hammersmith.
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