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Post by John Tuthill on Mar 10, 2021 10:36:46 GMT
Where three shifts are operated in 'normal' industry, the night shift is NOT operated by specific night-shift teams. Instead, people arrange their shifts to suit their own requirements, and the work available. The idea of special 'night shift' staff, unqualified to take a normal shift, is as ludicrous as it is inflexible. I remember when my brother was in the London Fire Brigade. The SAME crew worked, two days on, followed by two nights on and then two days off giving a 6 day rota. Sorry, don't know what their working practices are now. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 10, 2021 15:30:23 GMT
Where three shifts are operated in 'normal' industry, the night shift is NOT operated by specific night-shift teams. Instead, people arrange their shifts to suit their own requirements, and the work available. The idea of special 'night shift' staff, unqualified to take a normal shift, is as ludicrous as it is inflexible. "normal industry" night shifts to which you refer, I assume, are a full 5 day working week. In actual fact we do have full time nights as part of the normal rosters on LU and have had for many years. Night tube gives us a problem in that we require a large number of operational staff for two nights per week. If we employed full time staff to cover that two nights a week service, what would we do with them for the other three days of their working week? There are framework agreements to be adhered to which protect staff from fatigue in terms of minimum rest periods etc It actually makes a lot of sense to employ people on a part time basis to work two days a week. Part time job roles are hardly a new concept! And as for the claim that they're unqualified to work a normal shift, station staff can work overtime though priority will always go to full time staff first; Train Operators however cannot work planned overtime no matter whether they are full or part time. I remember when my brother was in the London Fire Brigade. The SAME crew worked, two days on, followed by two nights on and then two days off giving a 6 day rota. Sorry, don't know what their working practices are now. They still work a similar pattern though these it's an 8 day rota as they work 2 days, 2 nights then 4 days off. |
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Post by philthetube on Mar 10, 2021 16:20:35 GMT
The other issue with working 2 nights and three days in a week means that you only get one proper day off.
Start work Friday night so friday has to be spent doing things like sleeping in order to be fit to work, and Sunday, after finishing at approx 7am a driver is not going to be fit to pursue normal activities. Then three days have to be fit in between Monday and Thursday.
There are also health issues with this sort of shift pattern.
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Post by John Tuthill on Mar 10, 2021 17:50:42 GMT
Where three shifts are operated in 'normal' industry, the night shift is NOT operated by specific night-shift teams. Instead, people arrange their shifts to suit their own requirements, and the work available. The idea of special 'night shift' staff, unqualified to take a normal shift, is as ludicrous as it is inflexible. "normal industry" night shifts to which you refer, I assume, are a full 5 day working week. In actual fact we do have full time nights as part of the normal rosters on LU and have had for many years. Night tube gives us a problem in that we require a large number of operational staff for two nights per week. If we employed full time staff to cover that two nights a week service, what would we do with them for the other three days of their working week? There are framework agreements to be adhered to which protect staff from fatigue in terms of minimum rest periods etc It actually makes a lot of sense to employ people on a part time basis to work two days a week. Part time job roles are hardly a new concept! And as for the claim that they're unqualified to work a normal shift, station staff can work overtime though priority will always go to full time staff first; Train Operators however cannot work planned overtime no matter whether they are full or part time. I remember when my brother was in the London Fire Brigade. The SAME crew worked, two days on, followed by two nights on and then two days off giving a 6 day rota. Sorry, don't know what their working practices are now. They still work a similar pattern though these it's an 8 day rota as they work 2 days, 2 nights then 4 days off. Colin, Thanks for that. |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 10, 2021 19:54:30 GMT
I think LU started out with the idea of just adding more drivers to depot rosters with added night turns. Most nights they would stable as current night crews did, except at weekends. There would have been somewhat later and earlier trains in open areas on the other days. Additional night turns were not going to be popular with most existing staff. Also the current rate of pay was fixed based on the amount of night turns and unsocial hours required to be worked on average, so a pay rise for all drivers was an expectation. Going nowhere, they came up with the idea of an separate team of weekend night workers, which managed to get NightTube underway. Do regular night turns still work 7 turns before a long weekend break? That was the case back in the good old days!
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Post by nig on Mar 10, 2021 20:29:30 GMT
The other issue with working 2 nights and three days in a week means that you only get one proper day off. Start work Friday night so friday has to be spent doing things like sleeping in order to be fit to work, and Sunday, after finishing at approx 7am a driver is not going to be fit to pursue normal activities. Then three days have to be fit in between Monday and Thursday. There are also health issues with this sort of shift pattern. Work lates Tues Wednesday and Thursday if finish 1.30 am on the Friday morning doing nights Friday and Saturday wouldn't be so much of a toll on your body and rest Sunday and Monday would be the best way to work it. |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 11, 2021 8:32:54 GMT
The other issue with working 2 nights and three days in a week means that you only get one proper day off. Start work Friday night so friday has to be spent doing things like sleeping in order to be fit to work, and Sunday, after finishing at approx 7am a driver is not going to be fit to pursue normal activities. Then three days have to be fit in between Monday and Thursday. There are also health issues with this sort of shift pattern. Work lates Tues Wednesday and Thursday if finish 1.30 am on the Friday morning doing nights Friday and Saturday wouldn't be so much of a toll on your body and rest Sunday and Monday would be the best way to work it. I don't think you've ever worked nights. Finish at 0130. What time do you get home and get to bed and sleep? Then work until the end of the next night shift. |
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Post by philthetube on Mar 11, 2021 13:59:55 GMT
The other issue with working 2 nights and three days in a week means that you only get one proper day off. Start work Friday night so friday has to be spent doing things like sleeping in order to be fit to work, and Sunday, after finishing at approx 7am a driver is not going to be fit to pursue normal activities. Then three days have to be fit in between Monday and Thursday. There are also health issues with this sort of shift pattern. Work lates Tues Wednesday and Thursday if finish 1.30 am on the Friday morning doing nights Friday and Saturday wouldn't be so much of a toll on your body and rest Sunday and Monday would be the best way to work it. Irregular shifts are bad for the body in many ways, also you would end up with too many staff working Tues Wed Thurs and not enough to cover Monday and Friday, to say nothing of covering Sat, Sun days., the first thing which would have to happen for this to work would be for staff to work every weekend. |
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Post by nig on Mar 11, 2021 14:27:42 GMT
Work lates Tues Wednesday and Thursday if finish 1.30 am on the Friday morning doing nights Friday and Saturday wouldn't be so much of a toll on your body and rest Sunday and Monday would be the best way to work it. I don't think you've ever worked nights. Finish at 0130. What time do you get home and get to bed and sleep? Then work until the end of the next night shift. quite the opposite I've Been doing night shifts for about 10 years now Point I was making it's easier to do go onto a night shift if you was working a Late turn the night before rather than a early as your body will already be used to going to sleep early hours by time you get up say around midday or later on the Friday you will be fresher for a night shift then getting up early morning |
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Post by philthetube on Mar 11, 2021 15:13:24 GMT
There is also the issue than not everyone can cope with nights, they are rostered at most depots and it is in the framework agreement that they have to be worked but many people swap them and have never done them, or even if they have struggle through with no driving between 01.30 and 04.45, asking people in a situation where they cannot get decent sleep is asking for trouble.
Also they currently only appear on a roster occasionally, they would be frequent if night tube was included.
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Post by nig on Mar 11, 2021 15:45:32 GMT
There is also the issue than not everyone can cope with nights, they are rostered at most depots and it is in the framework agreement that they have to be worked but many people swap them and have never done them, or even if they have struggle through with no driving between 01.30 and 04.45, asking people in a situation where they cannot get decent sleep is asking for trouble. Also they currently only appear on a roster occasionally, they would be frequent if night tube was included. The no driving between 1.30 and 4.45 is for normal duty parameters normal night duties stable later and can come out earlier Not sure how they would include night tube into roster as there is an agreement in place that weekend working is not to be increased |
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Post by philthetube on Mar 11, 2021 18:06:32 GMT
There is also the issue than not everyone can cope with nights, they are rostered at most depots and it is in the framework agreement that they have to be worked but many people swap them and have never done them, or even if they have struggle through with no driving between 01.30 and 04.45, asking people in a situation where they cannot get decent sleep is asking for trouble. Also they currently only appear on a roster occasionally, they would be frequent if night tube was included. The no driving between 1.30 and 4.45 is for normal duty parameters normal night duties stable later and can come out earlier Not sure how they would include night tube into roster as there is an agreement in place that weekend working is not to be increased True, but it is accurate to within 10 mins or so unless the driver gets unlucky and ends up running sleets or some other stock move. |
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Post by North End on Mar 11, 2021 18:07:01 GMT
There is also the issue than not everyone can cope with nights, they are rostered at most depots and it is in the framework agreement that they have to be worked but many people swap them and have never done them, or even if they have struggle through with no driving between 01.30 and 04.45, asking people in a situation where they cannot get decent sleep is asking for trouble. Also they currently only appear on a roster occasionally, they would be frequent if night tube was included. Yes I don’t really think it’s reasonable to let people sign up to a job where it was well known nights would only be a relatively occasional fixture, to suddenly find they’re cropping up much more often, and in particular in such a way as to always be at weekends. It’s also hardly conducive to wellbeing to have to have to alter the body clock just for two shifts. Without wishing to keep replaying the same record, all this is one of many reasons why Night Tube is not an efficient way of moving a few people around overnight. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 11, 2021 18:43:15 GMT
One option would be to change the contract such that, for new starters, it is made clear that at some future point night shifts may become a normal part of the roster, but without changing the conditions for anyone employed before the change. Over the (very) long term this would give flexibility for the future when at least the majority of staff in the role were hired after the change. I presume union agreement would be needed for this, but if it was guaranteed that no changes in to current working arrangements would be made as a result of this change for at least 10 years (which I guess would be the absolute minimum time before the majority of staff were on the new contract) and that a discussion would be had regarding pay and conditions at the time changes were considered and before they were introduced, then I would say that such agreement would not be impossible (I'm not saying it would be guaranteed or even easy, just not impossible). However this has not got much to do with Coronavirus.
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Post by sawb on Mar 20, 2021 17:29:48 GMT
As of 17:28 on Saturday 20th March, only the Jubilee, Northern and Victoria lines are showing as good service. All other lines (excluding Waterloo & City obviously) showing as delayed due to train cancellations. Are these due to no drivers, no control staff or both and are they all covid related staffing issues?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 20, 2021 21:17:01 GMT
At 21.15 only the Bakerloo, Central and Metropolitan lines have delays owing to train cancellations - in other words, lack of drivers. This is more than likely covid related.
The Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and London Overground all have part closures due to planned engineering work so won't show a good service status.
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Post by superteacher on Mar 22, 2021 20:10:09 GMT
There were 20-25 gaps in the Central line service early on Saturday evening, even in the central section of the line. That is a decimated service.
It seems that absences from work due to Covid are very high for train operators. Are buses, for example, experiencing the same level of absence?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 22, 2021 21:04:24 GMT
There were 20-25 gaps in the Central line service early on Saturday evening, even in the central section of the line. That is a decimated service. 20 trains cancelled, which wasn’t the worst as the Jubilee had 22 and almost half service, although a full Line - regular service afforded a “good service” message. |
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Post by superteacher on Mar 22, 2021 21:32:29 GMT
There were 20-25 gaps in the Central line service early on Saturday evening, even in the central section of the line. That is a decimated service. 20 trains cancelled, which wasn’t the worst as the Jubilee had 22 and almost half service, although a full Line - regular service afforded a “good service” message. 😁 I heard that back in the 70's on some Saturday evenings, the Met had only four trains running! Hence sending the odd C Stock up to Amersham to cover! |
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Post by A60stock on Mar 22, 2021 22:12:02 GMT
Four trains only?! Gosh, how many tph is that to each branch?
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Post by graeme186 on Mar 22, 2021 22:20:25 GMT
20 trains cancelled, which wasn’t the worst as the Jubilee had 22 and almost half service, although a full Line - regular service afforded a “good service” message. 😁 I heard that back in the 70's on some Saturday evenings, the Met had only four trains running! Hence sending the odd C Stock up to Amersham to cover! In 1972/73, timetabled reduced 'emergency' services were introduced on all lines in response to the staffing crisis at the time. This was done to maintain some sort of regularity to services and so avoid significant gaps arising from cancelled trains. Services were gradually restored back to normal between the autumn of 1974 and summer of 1975 once the staffing situation improved. Presumably, we're not seeing a similar strategy being adopted at the current time because of the diminished numbers of passengers using services because of the pandemic? |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 23, 2021 7:18:34 GMT
The TfL board was told last week that plans are being made to re-open the Waterloo and City line in May or June.
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Post by sawb on Mar 23, 2021 14:49:00 GMT
The TfL board was told last week that plans are being made to re-open the Waterloo and City line in May or June. Interesting. Presumably details weren't given in the public part of the meeting about how LU propose to resolve the lack of social distancing possibilities in the crew room at Waterloo, given that seems to have been a significant part of the problem? |
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Post by gantshill on Mar 23, 2021 15:20:26 GMT
With the Waterloo & City line and the Terminal 4 loop having been closed to passengers for many months, I am wondering how long lines can stay closed without a formal closure process?
This isn't a criticism of the decision to close them temporarily. I am just intrigued to know if there are unexpected consequences.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 23, 2021 15:36:41 GMT
With the Waterloo & City line and the Terminal 4 loop having been closed to passengers for many months, I am wondering how long lines can stay closed without a formal closure process? This isn't a criticism of the decision to close them temporarily. I am just intrigued to know if there are unexpected consequences. The Terminal 4 loop is still served by the timetabled trains running empty from Hatton Cross, its only the station that remains closed. |
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Post by superteacher on Mar 23, 2021 19:00:34 GMT
The TfL board was told last week that plans are being made to re-open the Waterloo and City line in May or June. Interesting. Presumably details weren't given in the public part of the meeting about how LU propose to resolve the lack of social distancing possibilities in the crew room at Waterloo, given that seems to have been a significant part of the problem? Hopefully the social distancing rules will be dropped by the summer. |
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 23, 2021 23:43:55 GMT
Interesting. Presumably details weren't given in the public part of the meeting about how LU propose to resolve the lack of social distancing possibilities in the crew room at Waterloo, given that seems to have been a significant part of the problem? Hopefully the social distancing rules will be dropped by the summer. that would be wonderful - but more likely perhaps just eased - providing people are wearing masks its good to see that plans to reopen the W&C are advancing |
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Post by superteacher on Mar 29, 2021 21:33:05 GMT
No service this evening on both the H&C and Circle lines. Things seem to be getting worse, not better.
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Post by johnlinford on Mar 29, 2021 22:29:59 GMT
Given how low rates are in Greater London, and how generally positive the data on infection is, this suggests either TfL are keeping staff on furlough to minimise costs at the expense of good (or any) service that no-one is using (which I can't blame them for!) or some other internal resourcing issue. Curious to see which it is.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 30, 2021 1:30:07 GMT
If the issue is control room staff and/or signallers, then as few as 1 or 2 people being unavailable could cause the need for service suspensions (a lack of drivers normally results in delays). These roles are highly specialised and require a lot of training that is time consuming to undertake and easier to fail than pass, which means that even at the best of times there is not a large number of staff available. Currently you have a higher rate of illness than normal and (potentially) some staff shielding. Combine this with normal staff turnover (e.g. retirement) and a year of no training and your pool is only getting shallower. To the extent possible, shifts will be arranged so that the peak time service is prioritised (for obvious reasons), which (I'm guessing) could result in a spare being available to cover the peak shift if need be at the expense of no cover for the end of service.
I don't know, but I would be surprised if any signallers or control staff were furloughed, but if they were I can't imagine they still are.
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