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Post by spsmiler on Sept 21, 2020 17:01:23 GMT
I might soon have to stop travelling anywhere by public transport (for a while) - I was speaking with one of my brothers today and he was saying that as virus numbers are rising and an increasing number of places have new lockdowns I should cancel all future travel plans! If you mean reported cases, it is true that they have been increasing from around the time that masks were made mandatory. The whole tone has changed, local social lockdowns have started and more - all this has served to increase the paranoia amongst people in my family who have been shielding - not just people I live with but people in different domestic 'bubbles'. ------------------------ I was in the Bank area a few weeks ago and the place was exceptionally quiet with hardly anyone (bar visitors / tourists) walking around. This was at Bank Junction, near the Greathead statue, outside the Bank of England building. I was there again today and it was much livelier. Fortnum & Mason had an outdoor eating area set up in front of the Bank of England and whilst few people were wearing formal business attire there were quite a few people walking around - so much so that it affected my attempts at photography as I often had to wait for them to have walked past before taking my photos. Mostly I was filming closed station entrances (of which there were 'quite a few') and the new bike lane which has replaced a traffic lane in Threadneedle Street (the buses have been forcibly shoved out of the way / diverted via another road). At platform level I noted a section of footpath that lead to a pair of doors on the other side of the southbound platform. I assume that this is part of the works for a new southbound platform, I just wonder if (by the time all the ongoing station enhancement works have been completed) there will still be sufficient passenger footfall at this station to make the works worthwhile. I saw this because one of the direct consequences of this virus pandemic is expected to be significant changes to the global financial system, and these will not necessarily be good for London. |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 21, 2020 17:03:51 GMT
Maybe I'm late to the party in noticing this, but have the social distancing signs on trains been changed to now say 'maintain social distancing' instead of 'maintain a 2 metre distance where possible'? done months ago with a strip of plain blue vinyl. I've just checked my camera - I took a photograph showing the old message last week, on 14th September (today being the 21st). |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 21, 2020 19:49:20 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 21, 2020 21:39:47 GMT
I suspect Data Protection regulations prevent that. According to a letter in "Today's Railways", January 2014 the Prevention Of Terrorism Act 2001 actually requires smartcard ticketing schemes to keep some personally identifiable information - name & postcode of every traveller , for every journey - which will be available to anyone who asks for it, without a court warrant. This is why I asked if this data is being used for contact tracing. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 21, 2020 22:06:11 GMT
I suspect Data Protection regulations prevent that. According to a letter in "Today's Railways", January 2014 the Prevention Of Terrorism Act 2001 actually requires.... A brief search of www.legislation.gov.uk/ suggests to me that no such Act of Parliament exists. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 21, 2020 23:54:00 GMT
There was a Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 but this dealt only with the detention and restriction of activities of those suspected/convicted of terrorism and was repealed the following year. ( Wikipedia article) The Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 does in Part 3 contain provisions regarding the disclosure of information. These only apply with regard to criminal investigations and, with the exception of orders made by (what is now) HM Revenue and Customs, merely clarifies pre-existing legislation. The Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act 2014 did allow for/require retention of postal data, banking data and vehicle movement data. Only certain bodies were allowed to access this data and only specified reasons were permitted. The NHS was one such body and protecting public health was one valid reason. However smartcard ticketing data does not appear to be listed information and the act was repealed by the Investigatory Powers Act 2016. The latter incorporated some of the provisions of the earlier act, but again smartcard data does not appear (on superficial reading at least) to be covered. These acts were not terrorism legislation per se. |
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Post by Chris L on Sept 22, 2020 2:09:39 GMT
done months ago with a strip of plain blue vinyl. I've just checked my camera - I took a photograph showing the old message last week, on 14th September (today being the 21st). It was done when the 2m rule was abandoned at the end of June. |
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Post by tjw on Sept 22, 2020 7:40:31 GMT
According to a letter in "Today's Railways", January 2014 the Prevention Of Terrorism Act 2001 actually requires smartcard ticketing schemes to keep some personally identifiable information - name & postcode of every traveller , for every journey - which will be available to anyone who asks for it, without a court warrant. This is why I asked if this data is being used for contact tracing. So the smart card data, will include the following, 1. Starting station and time, 2. (interchange and time), 3. Finish station and time. Now if you have registered your Oyster / Bank card they will also have some of your details. If you have not they just have the Oyster card number or the number of the bank card... So someone has to take this data and try to work out if you could have caught Covid from the person on a tube train somewhere in-between... They may also have to try to get your details from your bank... and then call you up. Q. How many people would be needed to do this type of contact tracing? Writing a computer programme to do this automatically will take a while... So it will be easier to use the Apple / Google tracing App. Just because they can collect data about us, does not mean that this data can be used to track us... Tracking a person of interest to the police is easy, tracking hundreds of people is hard. |
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Post by philthetube on Sept 22, 2020 16:36:50 GMT
as it has now been advised to work from home, and hostelries have to close by 10, probably for an extended period, i wonder if service levels will be reviewed.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 22, 2020 17:47:40 GMT
as it has now been advised to work from home, and hostelries have to close by 10, probably for an extended period, i wonder if service levels will be reviewed. Unlikely as one of the conditions attached to the bailout was a resumption of full service. We'll probably have to wait until KPMG deliver their review of TfL's finances although nobody seems to know when that will be. All but two of the 11 shifts that start after 2:30pm finish after 10pm so my opportunities to have a post-work pint and a chat will be greatly reduced. |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 22, 2020 19:01:22 GMT
It sounds like people will no longer be allowed to buy takeaway food, for instance from Costa Coffee outlets at stations - which includes the outlets on the subsurface platforms at Westminster station.
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At least public transport is not being reserved for 'essential' journeys only.
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Post by stapler on Sept 22, 2020 21:25:33 GMT
<<At least public transport is not being reserved for 'essential' journeys only. >>
Yet.
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 22, 2020 21:56:59 GMT
I've just checked my camera - I took a photograph showing the old message last week, on 14th September (today being the 21st). It was done when the 2m rule was abandoned at the end of June. Only on London Overground. LU signage has been changed in the last fortnight, following consultation with the unions over dropping the 2m guidance. |
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Post by johnlinford on Sept 22, 2020 23:41:49 GMT
Not strictly COVID related, although it has accelerated the cashless trend, I noticed two new-style cashless ticket machines at Canary Wharf this evening. Didn't have a chance to grab a photo.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 23, 2020 8:42:17 GMT
Can we all please limit discussion to "Coronavirus Implications For London's Transport", the title of the thread? There's been a marked increase in deviation towards general COVID discussion and some notably pointed comments from members towards one another as a result. A reminder that OP clearly states, "we DO NOT want to see idle speculation, comment or panic about the medical side of things as they are outside our 'raison d'être'." Therefore, I've moved the more recent posts that fall foul of this to a quarantined area.
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Post by billbedford on Sept 23, 2020 9:45:06 GMT
Can we all please limit discussion to "Coronavirus Implications For London's Transport", the title of the thread? There's been a marked increase in deviation towards general COVID discussion and some notably pointed comments from members towards one another as a result. A reminder that OP clearly states, "we DO NOT want to see idle speculation, comment or panic about the medical side of things as they are outside our 'raison d'être'." Therefore, I've moved the more recent posts that fall foul of this to a quarantined area. Then could you change the subject of this thread to something more honest, such as 'Implications of Government pandemic restrictions on TfL'. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 23, 2020 11:04:33 GMT
Therefore, I've moved the more recent posts that fall foul of this to a quarantined area. Will they be allowed back out after they've self isolated for 14 days? There's nothing wrong with the subject discription btw Oxford Circus was busy during the evening peak last night, Stratford almost pre-Covid busy but Chancery Lane, St Paul's and Bank still quiet. |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 23, 2020 21:02:59 GMT
This tweet is somewhat surprising, but I suppose they are thinking of all types of employment - not just city centre office workers, oh and include travelling by car, bike, etc - not just public transport
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Chris W
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Post by Chris W on Sept 23, 2020 21:25:26 GMT
And still TfL continues to operate at a loss due to government policy/cuts....*
The implication being that ignoramuses will make extremist party political claims, using TfL as a political football !
Those that are put at risk are everyday TfL/LU staff, being in the middle, not only from the resulting abuse in the workplace from passengers who have been 'groomed' to have certain hostile opinions, but also being at the mercy of those who hold the ultimate purse-strings !
* no capital city metro system operates at a surplus/without subsidy (which London no longer receives) - why should London be any different ?
I type this with sincere concern for the safety of TfL/LU staff, in the long/short term, physically, medically and psychologically !
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Post by brigham on Sept 24, 2020 7:36:22 GMT
I'm beginning to think that the herding of people into communal spaces for mass transport is starting to look obsolete, like public wash-houses.
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Post by alpinejohn on Sept 24, 2020 8:19:23 GMT
I'm beginning to think that the herding of people into communal spaces for mass transport is starting to look obsolete, like public wash-houses. In the absence of a properly tested vaccine most communal facilities do look a problem for now. Indeed it is probably the underlying reason why private road traffic has returned rapidly in many parts of the UK whilst TFL and indeed most public transport remains relatively quiet. Whilst Russia have already launched a vaccination programe and in the USA they are pressing ahead with CDC officials under great pressure to short-cut their normal very thorough vaccine testing and approval protocols, I feel sure that eventually NICE will approve at least one vaccine and once it is widely available to the public (late 2021) then there is probably no reason why Transport operations cannot reinstate their pre-virus normal operational regime. In short it is probably not time to throw baby out ... Whilst I guess all those signs and arrows will then be quietly consigned to the bin. Perhaps there is a case for future station design/renovation to provide reasonable scope for one way circulation in case a further contagious virus arrives - but whilst budgets remain a favourite political football, I suspect such enhancements will be among the first things to be ditched by the bean counters. |
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Post by tjw on Sept 24, 2020 9:02:40 GMT
And still TfL continues to operate at a loss due to government policy/cuts....*
...
* no capital city metro system operates at a surplus/without subsidy (which London no longer receives) - why should London be any different ?
I type this with sincere concern for the safety of TfL/LU staff, in the long/short term, physically, medically and psychologically !
I do not see why London transport should be funded from general taxation, we have an excellent transport system and general taxation would be better spent on public transport say in the North East... London is one of the richest cities in the world, so should be able to afford to subsidise our public transport. A proportion of council / business rates should go into a transport pot. As for those who live in the Southeast and commute in a percentage (tax for transport) on season tickets into London from outside the Zones. N.B. I live in London. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 24, 2020 9:46:18 GMT
And still TfL continues to operate at a loss due to government policy/cuts....*
...
* no capital city metro system operates at a surplus/without subsidy (which London no longer receives) - why should London be any different ?
I type this with sincere concern for the safety of TfL/LU staff, in the long/short term, physically, medically and psychologically !
I do not see why London transport should be funded from general taxation, we have an excellent transport system and general taxation would be better spent on public transport say in the North East... London is one of the richest cities in the world, so should be able to afford to subsidise our public transport. A proportion of council / business rates should go into a transport pot. As for those who live in the Southeast and commute in a percentage (tax for transport) on season tickets into London from outside the Zones. N.B. I live in London. Outside of the UK public transport is heavily subsidised by general taxation, TfL's revenue is 72% fares, in Paris, New York and Madrid its around 30-35%. London is indeed one of the richest cities in the world, it generates around 30% of all UK tax revenues but those taxes go to the Treasury not the GLA and the GLA has very limited scope to raise further revenue. TfL already gets a share of any season tickets that include TfL services, they also receive a cut of the business rates and the Mayor has maxed out the precept he can take on council tax in order to increase the policing budget. Any increase or expansion of revenue would have to be granted by the government and hopefully KPMG's review will make proposals that will give TfL some financial stability, unlike the current system that has completely failed since passenger numbers collapsed due to Coronavirus N.B. I live in London too, I use public transport and I'm a taxpayer, why should my taxes pay for transport in the North East and not in London? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 24, 2020 16:18:37 GMT
Maybe I'm late to the party in noticing this, but have the social distancing signs on trains been changed to now say 'maintain social distancing' instead of 'maintain a 2 metre distance where possible'? done months ago with a strip of plain blue vinyl. Change noticed end-of August before / after:   |
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Post by brigham on Sept 24, 2020 17:20:34 GMT
Does anyone know why MY taxes should go towards supporting public transport in mega-rich London when the same facilities in Co. Durham are utter *****? They don't, London pays more tax to the Treasury than it takes out. We pay for your public transport and lots more besides That's right. I'd forgotten that. I don't know how, they keep reminding me often enough. Meanwhile, the most expensive underground railway in British history is slowly winding its costly way through the most congested area of subterranean railways in Great Britain, an area clearly in need of extra services... Still, all is not lost. Horden has a station again, and with a staggering 21 TPD! Pity they've knocked the Big Club down. |
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Chris W
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Post by Chris W on Sept 24, 2020 20:33:05 GMT
Does anyone know why MY taxes should go towards supporting public transport in mega-rich London when the same facilities in Co. Durham are utter *****? They don't, London pays more tax to the Treasury than it takes out. We pay for your public transport and lots more besides Sadly this exchange sums up the funding issues across essential and emergency services in society...
Intentional underfunding, results in representatives from equally deserving transport services, squabbling about money...
#Divided&Conquered
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Post by johnlinford on Sept 24, 2020 21:47:46 GMT
Funding of public services will always be contentious...
When is the next settlement required between TfL and the Government to ensure services continue?
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Post by North End on Sept 24, 2020 22:49:19 GMT
They don't, London pays more tax to the Treasury than it takes out. We pay for your public transport and lots more besides Sadly this exchange sums up the funding issues across essential and emergency services in society... Intentional underfunding, results in representatives from equally deserving transport services, squabbling about money... #Divided&Conquered
Yes I don’t find all this helpful. London got Crossrail (after waiting for a few decades), but also runs the oldest trains on the mainland, as well as it’s fair share of older mainline stock, not all of which has replacements in the pipeline. Find me a London or south-east station which has a free car park... |
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Post by revupminster on Sept 25, 2020 6:14:46 GMT
London has always been the centre of commerce and money since Roman times. Up until the 50s was the biggest manufacturing region in the UK. Look at the closed powers stations that line the Thames. I always feel sorry for our second city Birmingham usurped by Manchester as the place to be. The Pacer 142 and 143 is still hanging on throughout the North and South West and a few left in Wales
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Post by philthetube on Sept 25, 2020 7:20:44 GMT
Sadly this exchange sums up the funding issues across essential and emergency services in society... Intentional underfunding, results in representatives from equally deserving transport services, squabbling about money... #Divided&Conquered
Yes I don’t find all this helpful. London got Crossrail (after waiting for a few decades), but also runs the oldest trains on the mainland, as well as it’s fair share of older mainline stock, not all of which has replacements in the pipeline. Find me a London or south-east station which has a free car park... Hever and Cowden to name 2, I don't see any relevance to coronavirus in this though. |
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