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Post by North End on Jun 15, 2020 17:48:11 GMT
We have been told that the expectation is that all staff will wear face coverings as an additional measure to further protect and provide reassurance to both our people and our customers. Not sure what will happen if some refuse as it's only an expectation and not a rule. I’d say the bigger issue will ultimately turn out to be what happens if supplies run out. I will comply with what I absolutely am required to do, but I’m certainly not prepared to go an inch further than the absolute minimum to comply with obligations, and if that means going through scores of masks per day then so be it. In the dusty atmosphere of LU I’m certainly not prepared to have a dirty dust-trap round my face all day, nor am I going to string a piece of old t-shirt or underwear just to be seen to be doing something. If we really are at the stage of having to tie a pair of underpants round one’s face to avoid a fine then the world really has gone mad. Then again perhaps it already did when we saw the empty toilet-roll shelves and people drinking bleach! |
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Post by countryman on Jun 15, 2020 18:20:28 GMT
We have been told that the expectation is that all staff will wear face coverings as an additional measure to further protect and provide reassurance to both our people and our customers. Not sure what will happen if some refuse as it's only an expectation and not a rule. It is interesting to note the wording used here, "face covering" which is defined in the Statutory Instrument:There is currently no law that I'm aware of requiring you to wear a mask (surgical otherwise) whilst aboard public transport. Yes there is. A link to the legislation was posted above. The legislation came into force today. www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/592/pdfs/uksi_20200592_en.pdf |
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 15, 2020 18:30:00 GMT
It is interesting to note the wording used here, "face covering" which is defined in the Statutory Instrument:There is currently no law that I'm aware of requiring you to wear a mask (surgical otherwise) whilst aboard public transport. Yes there is. A link to the legislation was posted above. The legislation came into force today. www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/592/pdfs/uksi_20200592_en.pdfI think the point was being made that the law requires a “face covering”, which doesn’t have to be an actual mask. Hence the cynical suggestion that a pair of underpants would do the job of complying with the legislation. In fact, did the transport secretary not go on record saying a face covering could be made with a piece of old t-shirt? Rather than this nonsense, a supply of face coverings should perhaps be being handed out at each and every station. Perhaps this is happening in London, but it’s certainly not at my local (non-TFL) station. In order to do the job properly the numbers having to be handed out would be excessive. As for enforcement, given how utterly sick and tired of all this muddled mess the police must be by now, I suspect it will be patchy at best. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 15, 2020 18:35:08 GMT
The Statutory Instrument I was quoting from is the legislation you linked to. It requires the wearing of a face covering, not a surgical mask. |
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Post by superteacher on Jun 15, 2020 19:24:06 GMT
The Mayor was saying that people caught without face coverings will be fined as of tomorrow.
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 15, 2020 20:18:14 GMT
TfL have gone above and beyond the legal requirement and require masks to be worn on all TfL public property. There is an expectation that staff should also wear masks whilst in public areas. The initial point will be enforced, from tomorrow, and the bye-laws have been amended to allow for this. content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-conditions-of-carriage.pdfI'm very much not in the pro-mask camp, but I quite value my job. We've been told to wear them, so wear them I shall, even if it's for the short walk from Wenzel's to the cabin... if supplies run out and I get marooned in the cabin, it'll then be very quickly closing due to the inability to effectively social distance from colleagues. |
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Post by brigham on Jun 16, 2020 7:55:59 GMT
Looks like the Lone Ranger doesn't qualify!
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Post by programmes1 on Jun 16, 2020 9:16:59 GMT
Looks like the Lone Ranger doesn't qualify! And as Tonto would say Yes Ke-mo sah-bee. |
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Post by nig on Jun 16, 2020 14:08:25 GMT
no wonder there was a shortage of ppe in hospitals if they were only wore for a couple of minutes at a time ... Although if it gets contaminated as you say as soon as you touch it as you say does it matter if you remove it and put it back on later as the new one is only go to get infected same as old one from your hands unless you sneeze in it that is We can also add to the above people removing (and therefore needing to replace) their mask for having a drink of water - which is of course something necessary during hot weather. Indeed normally the railway encourages people to carry and drink water with them at this time of year. Personally I like to be hydrated when travelling, so that’s going to increase my mask usage further. Meanwhile I hear there’s already been stuff on Twitter along the lines of “there’s someone in my carriage not wearing a mask”, and even “why is the train driver not wearing a mask?”. Couldn’t make it up. I will certainly be expecting a supply of about 15 to 20 masks per shift, and if they run out then unfortunately there will be certain things which I legally won’t be able to do. As the face masks are to be used as face coverings and not Personal Protective Equipment, there are no formal standards to follow. We anticipate each colleague will use between one to three face masks in a full shift. If a colleague is doing more exhaustive tasks they may use four. Face masks should be changed after breaks or when it becomes damp. Always wash your hands before putting the mask on and before and after taking it off, and don’t touch the mask once it’s in place. that's the company's view on how many masks per shift should be used although cant see how you can wash your hands in a cab |
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Jun 16, 2020 15:37:03 GMT
We can also add to the above people removing (and therefore needing to replace) their mask for having a drink of water - which is of course something necessary during hot weather. Indeed normally the railway encourages people to carry and drink water with them at this time of year. Personally I like to be hydrated when travelling, so that’s going to increase my mask usage further. Meanwhile I hear there’s already been stuff on Twitter along the lines of “there’s someone in my carriage not wearing a mask”, and even “why is the train driver not wearing a mask?”. Couldn’t make it up. I will certainly be expecting a supply of about 15 to 20 masks per shift, and if they run out then unfortunately there will be certain things which I legally won’t be able to do. As the face masks are to be used as face coverings and not Personal Protective Equipment, there are no formal standards to follow. We anticipate each colleague will use between one to three face masks in a full shift. If a colleague is doing more exhaustive tasks they may use four. Face masks should be changed after breaks or when it becomes damp. Always wash your hands before putting the mask on and before and after taking it off, and don’t touch the mask once it’s in place. that's the company's view on how many masks per shift should be used although cant see how you can wash your hands in a cab All that can be said is we can all visualise the implications once a person’s four masks are exhausted for the day. I’m sure, for example, everyone will be more than happy to have the job stopped when a vital responder to an incident can’t enter a station, or a driver can’t leave their cab upon reaching a platform relief. Ultimately this dose of reality will put an end to the lunacy. |
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Post by rdm on Jun 16, 2020 15:51:15 GMT
I'm not an employee, but in the general populace if one cannot wash hands one is told one should use a hand sanitiser. Maybe personal issue of such may be required?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jun 16, 2020 17:12:11 GMT
The Train Managers at Leytonstone have been dispensing masks and hand sanitiser on request
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Post by cudsn15 on Jun 16, 2020 18:32:26 GMT
If you make a mask out of one of your missus' old bras, make sure you use the left cup...you don't want to end up looking a right tit...
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Post by philthetube on Jun 16, 2020 19:20:05 GMT
pull the udder one.
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Post by superteacher on Jun 16, 2020 20:48:07 GMT
Good to see that humour is alive and well!
But let’s get back on topic now, thanks. 🙂
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 19, 2020 21:07:45 GMT
I think the point was being made that the law requires a “face covering”, which doesn’t have to be an actual mask. Hence the cynical suggestion that a pair of underpants would do the job of complying with the legislation. In fact, did the transport secretary not go on record saying a face covering could be made with a piece of old t-shirt? Rather than this nonsense, a supply of face coverings should perhaps be being handed out at each and every station. Perhaps this is happening in London, but it’s certainly not at my local (non-TFL) station. In order to do the job properly the numbers having to be handed out would be excessive. As for enforcement, given how utterly sick and tired of all this muddled mess the police must be by now, I suspect it will be patchy at best. I passed through the ticket hall at Gants Hill a few days ago (only to collect a free newspaper / not to travel) and picked up a TfL leaflet that showed how to make a face covering. One of the designs includes how to use a T shirt!    |
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Post by brigham on Jun 20, 2020 7:25:38 GMT
I would think a T-shirt would provide a readily-available source of material to make a temporary face-covering.
This mentality of 'buying something we can make' needs to come to an end.
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Post by PiccNT on Jun 20, 2020 8:36:53 GMT
I'm surprised that so many people are disregarding the new legislation and not wearing a face covering. On Thursday I saw quite a few BTP officers about, didn't see one at all last night. I presume the fare evaders have taken the decision that as they don't pay, they also don't have to comply with the rules. Saw a bit of this whilst waiting for my train.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 20, 2020 8:58:08 GMT
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 20, 2020 9:32:13 GMT
I would think a T-shirt would provide a readily-available source of material to make a temporary face-covering. This mentality of 'buying something we can make' needs to come to an end. The problem with making one, as I see it, is that unless it is only used once then there’s the possibility of it accruing germs. This is why the disposable ones are only supposed to be worn once, and need replacing as soon as touched. It seems counter-productive for someone to make their own mask using cloth or whatever and then keep wearing it repeatedly. This is why I’m rather cynical about the whole masks thing. It has that feeling of “being seen to be doing something” about it. Likewise it’s hard to reconcile being told they’re pointless for the first half of the year, including right through the peak of the epidemic and before that when trains were packed to normal levels, yet now all of a sudden one can be fined for not wearing one. To do this meaningfully really needs masks to be being handed out when people enter the system, and needs people being issues with more than one. To be fair I have seen masks being handed out at some locations, but this appears far from universal. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jun 20, 2020 10:50:32 GMT
I would think a T-shirt would provide a readily-available source of material to make a temporary face-covering. This mentality of 'buying something we can make' needs to come to an end. The problem with making one, as I see it, is that unless it is only used once then there’s the possibility of it accruing germs. This is why the disposable ones are only supposed to be worn once, and need replacing as soon as touched. It seems counter-productive for someone to make their own mask using cloth or whatever and then keep wearing it repeatedly. This is why I’m rather cynical about the whole masks thing. It has that feeling of “being seen to be doing something” about it. Likewise it’s hard to reconcile being told they’re pointless for the first half of the year, including right through the peak of the epidemic and before that when trains were packed to normal levels, yet now all of a sudden one can be fined for not wearing one. To do this meaningfully really needs masks to be being handed out when people enter the system, and needs people being issues with more than one. To be fair I have seen masks being handed out at some locations, but this appears far from universal. Over 50 countries have made masks compulsory on public transport (in some cases you have to wear one just to go out in public) and as the UK leads the world in Covid related deaths per million people (622.93, Spain 621.41, Italy 570.84) maybe we should have been doing this months ago but that's no reason not to do it now. Once upon a time smoking was allowed on the Tube despite the known health risks, now you can be fined for it. What's the difference? "masks to be being handed out when people enter the system" And who exactly would hand out the masks? There aren't enough staff to open all the stations, some stations like the DLR are unstaffed anyway and when the government asked for volunteers they got nothing www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/19/uk-rail-bosses-rejected-call-to-dress-staff-like-face-mask-volunteers |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 20, 2020 11:25:28 GMT
The problem with making one, as I see it, is that unless it is only used once then there’s the possibility of it accruing germs. This is why the disposable ones are only supposed to be worn once, and need replacing as soon as touched. It seems counter-productive for someone to make their own mask using cloth or whatever and then keep wearing it repeatedly. . Cloth masks are washable. |
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Post by brigham on Jun 20, 2020 11:40:50 GMT
Cloth masks qualify.
Most people are wearing masks because they are required. The sudden increase in mask-wearing is NOT because of some 'virus awareness'.
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 20, 2020 18:19:34 GMT
The problem with making one, as I see it, is that unless it is only used once then there’s the possibility of it accruing germs. This is why the disposable ones are only supposed to be worn once, and need replacing as soon as touched. It seems counter-productive for someone to make their own mask using cloth or whatever and then keep wearing it repeatedly. This is why I’m rather cynical about the whole masks thing. It has that feeling of “being seen to be doing something” about it. Likewise it’s hard to reconcile being told they’re pointless for the first half of the year, including right through the peak of the epidemic and before that when trains were packed to normal levels, yet now all of a sudden one can be fined for not wearing one. To do this meaningfully really needs masks to be being handed out when people enter the system, and needs people being issues with more than one. To be fair I have seen masks being handed out at some locations, but this appears far from universal. Over 50 countries have made masks compulsory on public transport (in some cases you have to wear one just to go out in public) and as the UK leads the world in Covid related deaths per million people (622.93, Spain 621.41, Italy 570.84) maybe we should have been doing this months ago but that's no reason not to do it now. Once upon a time smoking was allowed on the Tube despite the known health risks, now you can be fined for it. What's the difference? "masks to be being handed out when people enter the system" And who exactly would hand out the masks? There aren't enough staff to open all the stations, some stations like the DLR are unstaffed anyway and when the government asked for volunteers they got nothing www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/19/uk-rail-bosses-rejected-call-to-dress-staff-like-face-mask-volunteersThe science is dubious at best. Personally I’m uncomfortable with having a germ trap round by face, and in all honesty I find it an intrusion too far. If people wish to wear a mask then all well and good, however in my view it shouldn’t be compulsory. As far as handing them out, that’s exactly what seems to be happening at large stations. Other stations (no LU station is unstaffed - officially at least!) could quite happily manage with piles of them in the booking hall for people to help themselves. From a practicality point of view they’re a nuisance, and will quickly become unbearable once we see high tunnel temperatures. Likewise from a purely logistical point of view there will be issues - I went through 15 masks today, just wearing them in the places where absolutely necessary. |
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 20, 2020 18:21:02 GMT
The problem with making one, as I see it, is that unless it is only used once then there’s the possibility of it accruing germs. This is why the disposable ones are only supposed to be worn once, and need replacing as soon as touched. It seems counter-productive for someone to make their own mask using cloth or whatever and then keep wearing it repeatedly. . Cloth masks are washable. Not really much good for people who are on the go all day, for example railway staff. Someone who just does a simply out and back commute might be able to work round that though to be fair. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jun 20, 2020 19:33:46 GMT
Over 50 countries have made masks compulsory on public transport (in some cases you have to wear one just to go out in public) and as the UK leads the world in Covid related deaths per million people (622.93, Spain 621.41, Italy 570.84) maybe we should have been doing this months ago but that's no reason not to do it now. Once upon a time smoking was allowed on the Tube despite the known health risks, now you can be fined for it. What's the difference? "masks to be being handed out when people enter the system" And who exactly would hand out the masks? There aren't enough staff to open all the stations, some stations like the DLR are unstaffed anyway and when the government asked for volunteers they got nothing www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/19/uk-rail-bosses-rejected-call-to-dress-staff-like-face-mask-volunteersThe science is dubious at best. Personally I’m uncomfortable with having a germ trap round by face, and in all honesty I find it an intrusion too far. If people wish to wear a mask then all well and good, however in my view it shouldn’t be compulsory. As far as handing them out, that’s exactly what seems to be happening at large stations. Other stations (no LU station is unstaffed - officially at least!) could quite happily manage with piles of them in the booking hall for people to help themselves. From a practicality point of view they’re a nuisance, and will quickly become unbearable once we see high tunnel temperatures. Likewise from a purely logistical point of view there will be issues - I went through 15 masks today, just wearing them in the places where absolutely necessary.
Regardless of your opinion the legislation is on the books and if people want to travel on public transport they are required to wear a face covering unless they have a "reasonable excuse". The Secretary of State has the option to review it after 6 months but seeing as it took this long to get it done I doubt if there's any chance of the Regulations being rescinded until Covid is well under control.
TfL started a "temporary distribution of face masks at targeted Tube and bus stations" on 6 June although it was only going to be for two weeks so unless that's been extend then they won't be handing out any from Monday.
Plenty of LU "open" section stations are left unstaffed and leaving "piles of them in the booking hall" has obvious problems (someone steals them to sell on, they end up all over the floor as a "slip hazard").
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 20, 2020 20:45:59 GMT
The science is dubious at best. Personally I’m uncomfortable with having a germ trap round by face, and in all honesty I find it an intrusion too far. If people wish to wear a mask then all well and good, however in my view it shouldn’t be compulsory. As far as handing them out, that’s exactly what seems to be happening at large stations. Other stations (no LU station is unstaffed - officially at least!) could quite happily manage with piles of them in the booking hall for people to help themselves. From a practicality point of view they’re a nuisance, and will quickly become unbearable once we see high tunnel temperatures. Likewise from a purely logistical point of view there will be issues - I went through 15 masks today, just wearing them in the places where absolutely necessary.
Regardless of your opinion the legislation is on the books and if people want to travel on public transport they are required to wear a face covering unless they have a "reasonable excuse". The Secretary of State has the option to review it after 6 months but seeing as it took this long to get it done I doubt if there's any chance of the Regulations being rescinded until Covid is well under control.
TfL started a "temporary distribution of face masks at targeted Tube and bus stations" on 6 June although it was only going to be for two weeks so unless that's been extend then they won't be handing out any from Monday.
Plenty of LU "open" section stations are left unstaffed and leaving "piles of them in the booking hall" has obvious problems (someone steals them to sell on, they end up all over the floor as a "slip hazard").
If people know they can be picked up free at stations then why would there be a market for them being sold on? We were discussing at work today, and the general feeling is that this measure will fall into disuse, just like Boris’s lockdown lasted just a couple of weeks before people began to chip away at the boundaries of it. I was in the back cab of a train today that had the air conditioning blowing out hot air (not sure if your trains are the same, however in a 95 stock there’s no way of turning off the air conditioning if the cab isn’t keyed on, not without tripping MCBs anyway), I popped a mask on just before arriving at the location where I was getting off, and within about half a minute it had become unbearable, a hot dusty sweaty mess. People just aren’t going to tolerate this when we get the real hot tunnel temperatures common over summer, and likewise they’re going to want to drink water, and we’re going to be wanting them to do exactly that so they don’t end up being taken ill and pulling handles down. I don’t have any objection to masks being encouraged when social distancing can’t be upheld, however many off-peak LU trains are fairly empty. Likewise it was precisely pointless me putting a mask on first thing this morning when I was the only person on the station. |
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Post by Chris L on Jun 21, 2020 2:20:28 GMT
I bought a pack of 3 masks online from Robert Dyas. They have a harder material on the outside and can be pulled down when not required for short periods. Hands sanitised each time the mask is touched.
They can be washed and there are changeable filters too.
Staff don't have to wear masks - exempt in the regulations.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 21, 2020 8:42:46 GMT
Please do not pull a mask down. If there are viral droplets on your neck you then contaminate the inside of your mask, when you pull it back up you can then inhale these and become infected. If you must move it with the intention of reusing it, lift it away from your face and fold it so the inner surfaces are against each other.
For exactly this reason genuine surgical masks are discarded immediately once removed.
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 21, 2020 8:54:34 GMT
Please do not pull a mask down. If there are viral droplets on your neck you then contaminate the inside of your mask, when you pull it back up you can then inhale these and become infected. If you must move it with the intention of reusing it, lift it away from your face and fold it so the inner surfaces are against each other. For exactly this reason genuine surgical masks are discarded immediately once removed. This is one of the reason I’m pretty against the whole thing. In practice it’s very hard to avoid fidgeting with them, indeed experience has shown it’s too difficult to speak by phone or radio with the mouth covered (think of a noisy Tube platform with background noise and now add a mask to muffle things further), so without a constant supply of fresh masks it’s pretty impracticable to avoid the risk described. Personally I feel I am required to wear something which elevates the chance of transferring germs to my face, and impairs my ability to clearly communicate safety-critical information. |
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