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Post by spsmiler on Jun 6, 2020 16:23:19 GMT
It was an interesting experiment, the overnight service. The virus control measures might be a good opportunity to ditch it, or run equivalent buses. This would also remove a liability to safety-critical p-way inspections. Buses cannot compete, partly because of the proliferation of 20mph snail slow speed limits but also because the pandemic has seen roads closed to all but bikes - especially in Central London, a blight that affects some normal day-time buses too. Hopefully these closures will not be permanent, it will be bad for bus travel in London, making it harder to reach some areas. Especially for those who cannot walk distances. It could also make central London less attractive as a place to be for to some businesses who will then chose to relocate elsewhere - London needs as many businesses of all types as possible, as these generate the wealth that will (via local taxes) help fund future transport investments - as we know, the virus pandemic has already severely strained transport finances and as a result of the ability to 'work-at-home' some businesses may be about to review their physical presences, so for the sake of future investment we need actions that make staying here the most attractive actions. It will be very bad for transport in London if businesses decide to relocate to outer suburban business parks, such as Stockley Park, which are remote from railways and whilst they may have bus services they are primarily designed for car commuting. |
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Post by brigham on Jun 8, 2020 9:02:34 GMT
I was thinking in the longer term.
Does anyone have usage figures for the overnight tube services? Could they be accommodated on buses, given the relatively light night time traffic?
A minor alteration to road markings to ease the passage of buses at tight spots would surely make more sense than trying to run a rail service during the already-tight PW maintenance period.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jun 8, 2020 10:33:37 GMT
I was thinking in the longer term. Does anyone have usage figures for the overnight tube services? Could they be accommodated on buses, given the relatively light night time traffic? A minor alteration to road markings to ease the passage of buses at tight spots would surely make more sense than trying to run a rail service during the already-tight PW maintenance period. I think it was around 8.7 million journeys in the years 2018/2019 so dividing that by the 104 weekend days (not exact of course) gives around 83,500 journeys or to put it another way, around the same amount of passengers Bond Street sees on average per day. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 8, 2020 11:02:14 GMT
Unions have now been informed that Night Tube is now officially suspended until 31 March 2021. TTNs Temporary Timetable Notices issued to commence Monday 6 July removing Night Tube services “until further notice” on Central, Jubilee, Northern, Piccadilly, Victoria. |
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Post by Chris L on Jun 8, 2020 13:01:03 GMT
I was thinking in the longer term. Does anyone have usage figures for the overnight tube services? Could they be accommodated on buses, given the relatively light night time traffic? A minor alteration to road markings to ease the passage of buses at tight spots would surely make more sense than trying to run a rail service during the already-tight PW maintenance period. I think it was around 8.7 million journeys in the years 2018/2019 so dividing that by the 104 weekend days (not exact of course) gives around 83,500 journeys or to put it another way, around the same amount of passengers Bond Street sees on average per day. You potentially lose the inward journeys if people can't get home. One of the problems with traffic speeds in the early hours is traffic light phasing. At one time I could drive down the Old Kent Road after work at around 29mph and get through every set of lights. The last time I did it I was stopped at every set of lights. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 9, 2020 11:34:51 GMT
Chris, surely that road is now a '20 is plenty' (sic) road, so therefore they would be doing this purposely. I recall reading that years ago Edinburgh set some traffic lights so that people travelling at 30mph would only see green lights. Local people worked out that this effect also worked at 44mph, which (depending on road type and location) was most likely a trifle too fast. On Flickr I have seen a photograph of a LU poster telling people to stay six steps apart when travelling on escalators. I cannot share it here because the owner has (rather unkindly*) disabled sharing, but Flickr did offer me this link flic.kr/p/2j8LWPhI added a comment which I'm sharing here too... *) I allow sharing on all my photos and made most of them (all of the ones to do with the pandemic) CC0 - in effect public domain / copyright free! |
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Post by Chris M on Jun 9, 2020 15:42:19 GMT
On Flickr I have seen a photograph of a LU poster telling people to stay six steps apart when travelling on escalators. I cannot share it here because the owner has (rather unkindly*) disabled sharing, but Flickr did offer me this link flic.kr/p/2j8LWPhThis is a photo from Canary Wharf shopping centre, which seems to be suggesting people keep 5 steps between them on escalators.  (click for a larger version. If people stick to that on TfL services then there is going to be some very significant blocking back onto platforms / into gatelines. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Jun 9, 2020 18:16:26 GMT
If people stick to that on TfL services then there is going to be some very significant blocking back onto platforms / into gatelines. We are having this exact face off all over Heathrow including stations. It's going to prove impossible to have unrestricted passenger movements whilst maintaining social distancing. Managed queuing systems are acceptable at the moment as the only real crowds come from staff shift handovers but introduced near normal passenger flows and its going to snarl up very quickly. I can only imagine the scale of the issue facing LU given that space is a luxury you just don't have. |
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Post by roman80 on Jun 10, 2020 8:48:37 GMT
The following article may be of interest. Published today by Bloomberg news. An interesting graphic showing potential capacity of a Central line carriage under the current two metre guidelines. I believe the link should work and the article should be free to read. Please bear in mind the website allows only one free article. www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-london-cycling-streetspace/ |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jun 14, 2020 19:15:24 GMT
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Post by North End on Jun 14, 2020 19:19:48 GMT
General vibe in my neck of the woods is that staff are rather unhappy wearing them, with many finding it a distraction. With each mask only apparently being suitable for single-use, this means some people are using over ten per shift, in order to comply with the requirements whilst not wearing them whilst doing tasks like driving. At a depot with 90 duties per day, this means up to 900 or more masks, plus some for managers and the like. And of course if supplies run out then we’ll have situations like drivers not being legally able to reach their trains, responders unable to reach incidents, et cetera. How long will this nonsense last? From a personal perspective I’m highly uncomfortable with the whole thing, especially as it largely appears to be a “be seen to do something” measure, another thing to add to the utter shambles that is our country’s response to this situation. |
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Post by Westinghouse on Jun 14, 2020 20:06:52 GMT
We are 4 weeks into running a full timetable on the Bakerloo, has been noticeably busier with passengers this last week.
A lot of families travelling this weekend which was a welcome change, always makes the day a little bit better to see exited children waving on the platforms once more.
Many mixed feelings for tomorrow onwards at my depot, only time will tell how it all pans out and there are concerns as to how long our stock of masks will last, the average duty will get through 6 in a shift.
There might be some arguments in the morning if they are still being rationed!
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Post by nig on Jun 14, 2020 20:38:47 GMT
General vibe in my neck of the woods is that staff are rather unhappy wearing them, with many finding it a distraction. With each mask only apparently being suitable for single-use, this means some people are using over ten per shift, in order to comply with the requirements whilst not wearing them whilst doing tasks like driving. At a depot with 90 duties per day, this means up to 900 or more masks, plus some for managers and the like. And of course if supplies run out then we’ll have situations like drivers not being legally able to reach their trains, responders unable to reach incidents, et cetera. How long will this nonsense last? From a personal perspective I’m highly uncomfortable with t the whole thing, especially as it largely appears to be a “be seen to do something” measure, another thing to add to the shambles that is our country’s response to this situation. 10 a shift so does that mean if you wear one when changing ends for 2 minutes you ha e to throw it away ? I would of thought you would use one for the first half and a fresh one for the 2nd half |
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Post by North End on Jun 14, 2020 21:53:03 GMT
General vibe in my neck of the woods is that staff are rather unhappy wearing them, with many finding it a distraction. With each mask only apparently being suitable for single-use, this means some people are using over ten per shift, in order to comply with the requirements whilst not wearing them whilst doing tasks like driving. At a depot with 90 duties per day, this means up to 900 or more masks, plus some for managers and the like. And of course if supplies run out then we’ll have situations like drivers not being legally able to reach their trains, responders unable to reach incidents, et cetera. How long will this nonsense last? From a personal perspective I’m highly uncomfortable with t the whole thing, especially as it largely appears to be a “be seen to do something” measure, another thing to add to the shambles that is our country’s response to this situation. 10 a shift so does that mean if you wear one when changing ends for 2 minutes you ha e to throw it away ? I would of thought you would use one for the first half and a fresh one for the 2nd half From what I understand (I’ll add the disclaimer that I’ve been on leave for these last couple of weeks so I’m only hearing this third hand) the answer is yes - the moment the mask is touched with hands it can potentially become contaminated. So for someone who wishes to wear it only when legally required, they will get through a lot of masks. Take a fictional but true-to-form morning Golders Green duty: Travel to work by train (1st mask) Off during the booking on process Walk to train via platform (2nd mask) Up to Edgware Change ends (3rd mask) Down to Morden Step back (4th mask) Up to High Barnet To canteen for meal relief via platform (5th mask) Meal relief To next train via platform (6th mask) Down to Morden Change ends (7th mask) Up to Edgware Change ends (8th mask) Down to Golders Green for finish Back to depot to deposit stuff in locker (9th mask) Locker room To platforms and train home (10th mask) Now perhaps this is extreme and some won’t take them off at every opportunity, but from what I’m hearing some will. I certainly would, especially when I feel it’s precisely pointless for example when changing ends at a terminus where people probably won’t be encountered. Not to mention that I hear Barnard Castle is a nice place to visit! ;-) Perhaps I’m just acting the rear-end because I’m displeased with the way this whole thing has been handled from start to finish, however if so it seems I’m not alone in feeling this way. |
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Post by nig on Jun 15, 2020 9:30:17 GMT
10 a shift so does that mean if you wear one when changing ends for 2 minutes you ha e to throw it away ? I would of thought you would use one for the first half and a fresh one for the 2nd half From what I understand (I’ll add the disclaimer that I’ve been on leave for these last couple of weeks so I’m only hearing this third hand) the answer is yes - the moment the mask is touched with hands it can potentially become contaminated. So for someone who wishes to wear it only when legally required, they will get through a lot of masks. Take a fictional but true-to-form morning Golders Green duty: Travel to work by train (1st mask) Off during the booking on process Walk to train via platform (2nd mask) Up to Edgware Change ends (3rd mask) Down to Morden Step back (4th mask) Up to High Barnet To canteen for meal relief via platform (5th mask) Meal relief To next train via platform (6th mask) Down to Morden Change ends (7th mask) Up to Edgware Change ends (8th mask) Down to Golders Green for finish Back to depot to deposit stuff in locker (9th mask) Locker room To platforms and train home (10th mask) Now perhaps this is extreme and some won’t take them off at every opportunity, but from what I’m hearing some will. I certainly would, especially when I feel it’s precisely pointless for example when changing ends at a terminus where people probably won’t be encountered. Not to mention that I hear Barnard Castle is a nice place to visit! ;-) Perhaps I’m just acting the rear-end because I’m displeased with the way this whole thing has been handled from start to finish, however if so it seems I’m not alone in feeling this way. no wonder there was a shortage of ppe in hospitals if they were only wore for a couple of minutes at a time ... Although if it gets contaminated as you say as soon as you touch it as you say does it matter if you remove it and put it back on later as the new one is only go to get infected same as old one from your hands unless you sneeze in it that is |
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 15, 2020 10:41:31 GMT
From what I understand (I’ll add the disclaimer that I’ve been on leave for these last couple of weeks so I’m only hearing this third hand) the answer is yes - the moment the mask is touched with hands it can potentially become contaminated. So for someone who wishes to wear it only when legally required, they will get through a lot of masks. Take a fictional but true-to-form morning Golders Green duty: Travel to work by train (1st mask) Off during the booking on process Walk to train via platform (2nd mask) Up to Edgware Change ends (3rd mask) Down to Morden Step back (4th mask) Up to High Barnet To canteen for meal relief via platform (5th mask) Meal relief To next train via platform (6th mask) Down to Morden Change ends (7th mask) Up to Edgware Change ends (8th mask) Down to Golders Green for finish Back to depot to deposit stuff in locker (9th mask) Locker room To platforms and train home (10th mask) Now perhaps this is extreme and some won’t take them off at every opportunity, but from what I’m hearing some will. I certainly would, especially when I feel it’s precisely pointless for example when changing ends at a terminus where people probably won’t be encountered. Not to mention that I hear Barnard Castle is a nice place to visit! ;-) Perhaps I’m just acting the rear-end because I’m displeased with the way this whole thing has been handled from start to finish, however if so it seems I’m not alone in feeling this way. no wonder there was a shortage of ppe in hospitals if they were only wore for a couple of minutes at a time ... Although if it gets contaminated as you say as soon as you touch it as you say does it matter if you remove it and put it back on later as the new one is only go to get infected same as old one from your hands unless you sneeze in it that is We can also add to the above people removing (and therefore needing to replace) their mask for having a drink of water - which is of course something necessary during hot weather. Indeed normally the railway encourages people to carry and drink water with them at this time of year. Personally I like to be hydrated when travelling, so that’s going to increase my mask usage further. Meanwhile I hear there’s already been stuff on Twitter along the lines of “there’s someone in my carriage not wearing a mask”, and even “why is the train driver not wearing a mask?”. Couldn’t make it up. I will certainly be expecting a supply of about 15 to 20 masks per shift, and if they run out then unfortunately there will be certain things which I legally won’t be able to do. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jun 15, 2020 10:51:48 GMT
I bought my own reusable mask, £15. Saves all the faffing around
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 15, 2020 10:52:50 GMT
10 a shift so does that mean if you wear one when changing ends for 2 minutes you ha e to throw it away ? I would of thought you would use one for the first half and a fresh one for the 2nd half From what I understand (I’ll add the disclaimer that I’ve been on leave for these last couple of weeks so I’m only hearing this third hand) the answer is yes - the moment the mask is touched with hands it can potentially become contaminated. |
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Post by North End on Jun 15, 2020 10:59:40 GMT
Very interesting, I hadn’t picked up on that. In which case I am extremely tempted not to bother at all. Though I’m not sure if LU has put it in their new Rule Book 25 as a requirement? There’s always the defence that my instinct tells me not to! |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 15, 2020 11:01:51 GMT
Though I’m not sure if LU has put it in their new Rule Book 25 as a requirement? Rule Book 25 will not be issued. |
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Post by North End on Jun 15, 2020 12:00:37 GMT
Though I’m not sure if LU has put it in their new Rule Book 25 as a requirement? Rule Book 25 will not be issued. In which case, more corporate time wasted just like with the timetable notices. Reading through the legislation in more detail, it’s interesting that the wearing of masks is required when boarding or on board a train, so unless I’ve missed something there doesn’t appear to be any mention of wearing them whilst on stations. I am going to have a word with a friend who has a legal background on all this. But it certainly seems from a legal layman’s perspective that it’s quite legally permissible to enter a station, make one’s way to a train, travel in the rear cab without accessing a saloon, and leave a station without breaking the law. Likewise one can travel on board a train providing one is in the execution of duty and is employed by that operating company, and as far as I’m concerned execution of duty means being on duty. Being off at the moment I’m not fully in the loop as to what additional steps LU might have taken, however I’m not sure it could be considered reasonable to expect staff to wear masks to an extent beyond what the law requires. Whilst to date I’ve been content to follow measures provided for the greater good, I fully intent to tear the pants out of this, to quote the deputy CMO. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jun 15, 2020 12:09:39 GMT
Rule Book 25 will not be issued. In which case, more corporate time wasted just like with the timetable notices. Reading through the legislation in more detail, it’s interesting that the wearing of masks are required when boarding or on board a train, so unless I’ve missed something there doesn’t appear to be any mention of wearing them whilst on stations. I am going to have a word with a friend who has a legal background on all this. But it certainly seems from a legal layman’s perspective that it’s quite legally permissible to enter a station, make one’s way to a train, travel in the rear cab without accessing a saloon, and leave a station without breaking the law. Likewise one can travel on board a train providing one is in the execution of duty and is employed by that operating company, and as far as I’m concerned execution of duty means being on duty. Being off at the moment I’m not fully in the loop as to what additional steps LU might have taken, however I’m not sure it could be considered reasonable to expect staff to wear masks to an extent beyond what the law requires. Whilst to date I’ve been content to follow measures provided for the greater good, I fully intent to tear the pants out of this, to quote the deputy CMO. Only train crew can travel in the rear cab if they are required to travel "on the cushions" as part of their duty, it has to be arranged through the Line Controller and you access the cab via the J Door |
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Post by North End on Jun 15, 2020 12:25:43 GMT
In which case, more corporate time wasted just like with the timetable notices. Reading through the legislation in more detail, it’s interesting that the wearing of masks are required when boarding or on board a train, so unless I’ve missed something there doesn’t appear to be any mention of wearing them whilst on stations. I am going to have a word with a friend who has a legal background on all this. But it certainly seems from a legal layman’s perspective that it’s quite legally permissible to enter a station, make one’s way to a train, travel in the rear cab without accessing a saloon, and leave a station without breaking the law. Likewise one can travel on board a train providing one is in the execution of duty and is employed by that operating company, and as far as I’m concerned execution of duty means being on duty. Being off at the moment I’m not fully in the loop as to what additional steps LU might have taken, however I’m not sure it could be considered reasonable to expect staff to wear masks to an extent beyond what the law requires. Whilst to date I’ve been content to follow measures provided for the greater good, I fully intent to tear the pants out of this, to quote the deputy CMO. Only train crew can travel in the rear cab if they are required to travel "on the cushions" as part of their duty, it has to be arranged through the Line Controller and you access the cab via the J Door Certainly on my line people are doing it on their way to and from work. I thought it didn’t have to be done through service control providing entrainment happens at a normal crew relief point? That’s certainly what’s happening in my neck of the woods. Those lines with in-cab CCTV have the slight benefit that the driver can see into the rear cab departing stations, so can see if the person there is in uniform. We more or less have to go via the J door as at many of our stations the rear cab door stops in the tunnel. Interestingly twice I’ve had to be dropped off or collected at a closed station via the rear cab, that’s certainly an interesting thing to have to do, especially if the driver isn’t quite on the ball! |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jun 15, 2020 12:47:21 GMT
All rear cab rides have to be authorised through service control and are part of a duty, anything else could lead to disciplinary action. Excuse if I don't volunteer to join the dole queue
We had an issue back in April where a member of staff got into the rear cab of an Epping shuttle at the end of their shift to travel home so the driver refused to move the train until they left the cab
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Post by North End on Jun 15, 2020 13:00:27 GMT
All rear cab rides have to be authorised through service control and are part of a duty, anything else could lead to disciplinary action. Excuse if I don't volunteer to join the dole queue We had an issue back in April where a member of staff got into the rear cab of an Epping shuttle at the end of their shift to travel home so the driver refused to move the train until they left the cab Thankfully it seems ER on my line isn’t that bad! I really can’t see many drivers having a problem with someone boarding their rear cab at a crew relief point, in full uniform, and providing they immediately identify themselves via the cab-to-cab. Travelling in rear cabs is commonplace on the mainline, it used to be on LU until the advent of J door alarms and the demise of guards. Service control don’t really have the time to be a rear-cab taxi co-ordination service, especially at the moment with so much time having to be spent sorting out crew-related cancellations. Going back to the legislation, I hate the words “reasonable excuse”. Excuse is such a negative word, sounds more like school kids skiving off PE than a national emergency situation. I think most people are completely malaised by all this now. It’s getting very 1984. |
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Post by brigham on Jun 15, 2020 15:24:13 GMT
Has nobody noticed that the emergency is OVER?
When groups of ten thousand plus are allowed to meet in major British cities, with no attempt at 'social distancing' at all, it becomes perfectly obvious that the latest 'diktats' come from a craven Government trying to pretend that it is still in control.
It isn't. The next message needs to be:
"Return to Work, Save the Economy, Protect the NHS".
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North End
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Post by North End on Jun 15, 2020 16:21:25 GMT
Has nobody noticed that the emergency is OVER? When groups of ten thousand plus are allowed to meet in major British cities, with no attempt at 'social distancing' at all, it becomes perfectly obvious that the latest 'diktats' come from a craven Government trying to pretend that it is still in control. It isn't. The next message needs to be: "Return to Work, Save the Economy, Protect the NHS". This is precisely my feeling. To be fair I wouldn’t quite say it’s over, but part of the reason why things escalated in March was because people just weren’t taking things seriously, and we can hardly blame them when even the prime minister himself managed to get C19! Likewise we had empty shelves where hand gels were, pubs open et cetera. My town now looks like a war zone, with some people now treating the whole thing as one great big extended leisure event, no doubt helped by the fine weather. It is very difficult to reconcile hearing the most of this year that masks are ineffective, then all of a sudden having worked through the peak in what was at the time the epicentre with zero PPE and for much of this time zero distancing, all of a sudden I can be fined for not wearing a mask in my workplace. Especially when we see just how seriously a number of people making these rules have applied them to their own actions. As I said in my other post, this is all very 1984. I’m already sick of dagger looks passing people in the street or petty squabbles outside supermarkets when someone accidentally jumps some over-intricate queuing system, I could do without all this in work too. Of course all this will simply die a natural death, just like the lockdown fizzled away after not very long. I have never known the leadership of our country to be so out of touch with what happens on the ground. |
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Post by superteacher on Jun 15, 2020 17:19:00 GMT
Back on topic please. As has been mentioned several times, we are only interested in the implications for TFL.
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Post by PiccNT on Jun 15, 2020 17:29:36 GMT
We have been told that the expectation is that all staff will wear face coverings as an additional measure to further protect and provide reassurance to both our people and our customers.
Not sure what will happen if some refuse as it's only an expectation and not a rule.
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 15, 2020 17:45:51 GMT
We have been told that the expectation is that all staff will wear face coverings as an additional measure to further protect and provide reassurance to both our people and our customers. Not sure what will happen if some refuse as it's only an expectation and not a rule. It is interesting to note the wording used here, "face covering" which is defined in the Statutory Instrument: There is currently no law that I'm aware of requiring you to wear a mask (surgical otherwise) whilst aboard public transport. |
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