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Post by Chris L on Jul 27, 2023 16:35:29 GMT
Thing is, I don't mind when things go up the wall; it's something that is expected with any railway. What really gets me however is how station staff suddenly dissapear when these incidents happen. From my experience, whilst the Liz line staff on the lower platforms at Paddington were doing their best during the incident yesterday, there were literally no announcements or staff at the high level platforms. The only information were the departure screens changing to cancelled about 5 mins before a train was expected to depart. It just makes a difficult situation even worse when no accurate information is conveyed to passengers (don't even get me started with the TfL status update page!) /rant The platform staff at Whitechapel often seem to disappear at times of disruption. On one occasion I was waiting for an Abbey Wood train but only Shenfield trains were shown. No announcements were made. |
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Post by d7666 on Jul 27, 2023 19:23:51 GMT
What really gets me however is how station staff suddenly dissapear when these incidents happen. From my experience, whilst the Liz line staff on the lower platforms at Paddington were doing their best during the incident yesterday, there were literally no ..... staff at the high level platforms. errr - staff - first you say they disappear, then you say they were on the low level platforms. So which is it ? If they were on the low level platforms, they can not at the same time be on the high level platforms, or, if they were on the high level platforms, then that can only be by "disappearing" from the low level. There are not twice as many staff as they normally need, with half of them sitting around idle, just because the occasional incident may occur that needs both manned. Precisely how would you staff this, bearing in mind an incident like this impacts the entire line, not just Paddington, so drafting staff from adjacent stations on the line won't work. |
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Post by d7666 on Jul 27, 2023 19:26:28 GMT
The platform should be rebuilt to the height of the train. IF councils do stretches of roads where they raise the pavement height. Surely it is not that hard to raise the height of the platform to accommodate trains. Civil engineering doability is not the problem. Finding the £££££££s to do it is. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 27, 2023 20:44:07 GMT
Also, it can be significantly more complicated to raise the height of a platform than to raise the height of a pavement. Tolerances on the railway are very significantly tighter than on roads, and in some cases higher platforms infringe on the swept path of other trains (particularly freight trains). This means that often your choice would be between level boarding with a very large horizontal gap or a short horizontal gap with a large step.
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 28, 2023 12:19:14 GMT
level boarding with a very large horizontal gap The Stadler trains used in a few areas around the UK get around this by using an extending step to fill the gap |
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Post by Chris L on Jul 30, 2023 9:01:23 GMT
level boarding with a very large horizontal gap The Stadler trains used in a few areas around the UK get around this by using an extending step to fill the gap but these only work on straight platforms. Where platforms have been extended for longer trains they often have to curve to fit the available space. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 30, 2023 19:52:46 GMT
The Stadler trains used in a few areas around the UK get around this by using an extending step to fill the gap but these only work on straight platforms. I can't speak for the Anglian units, but on Merseyside the step extends far enough to be usable at every platform; they're not all straight. |
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Post by Chris L on Jul 31, 2023 5:08:26 GMT
but these only work on straight platforms. I can't speak for the Anglian units, but on Merseyside the step extends far enough to be usable at every platform; they're not all straight. Merseyside is a self contained network so no freight trains and they modified the platforms to suit the new trains. Maximum train length is 6 cars. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jul 31, 2023 14:23:51 GMT
Thing is, I don't mind when things go up the wall; it's something that is expected with any railway. What really gets me however is how station staff suddenly dissapear when these incidents happen. From my experience, whilst the Liz line staff on the lower platforms at Paddington were doing their best during the incident yesterday, there were literally no announcements or staff at the high level platforms. The only information were the departure screens changing to cancelled about 5 mins before a train was expected to depart. It just makes a difficult situation even worse when no accurate information is conveyed to passengers (don't even get me started with the TfL status update page!) /rant I do not blame the platform staff for disappearing. As some members of the public get violent towards them as though it was their fault the train was not coming. At Farringdon last week one of the PA announcements from the control room did relay the info of the train would be in 20 minutes, nearly a 30 minute gap. This was after 8 minutes the platform indicators kept counting down the trains, only for it to then turn to cancelled or disappear. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 31, 2023 17:05:05 GMT
Merseyside is a self contained network so no freight trains and they modified the platforms to suit the new trains. Maximum train length is 6 cars. I thought that they can take two Stadler trains working in multiple, with the passenger door positioning on each of the new trains being arranged to allow this without needing any selective door closing. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 31, 2023 21:09:30 GMT
I can't speak for the Anglian units, but on Merseyside the step extends far enough to be usable at every platform; they're not all straight. Merseyside is a self contained network so no freight trains and they modified the platforms to suit the new trains. Maximum train length is 6 cars. Freight trains do use parts of the network (though not often), as do Rail Head Treatment Trains and trains involved in renewals. The platforms have been rebuilt, but not to suit the trains - the platforms are all now at the national standard height and offset; the trains were ordered to fit the platforms, and at platforms that are curved the sliding step still works. The new trains are 4-car and can work as a pair with Selective Door Opening only used at one, maybe two stations. So maximum train length is 8cars. |
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Post by d7666 on Aug 1, 2023 16:51:18 GMT
Maximum train length is 6 cars. The new trains are 4-car and can work as a pair ......... So maximum train length is 8cars. Simply stating the count of cars clouds the issue for those unfamiliar with either the old or the new stock. The old stock - 507s and 508s - are 3car of the erstwhile standard nominal 20 m car length - actually 20.18 m - limited to 6car maximum => 121 m round numbers *** The new stock - 777s - are 4car of customised lengths - 19.00 + 13.50 + 13.50 + 19.00 m - limited to 2 units => 130.0 m round numbers *** So while yes the new trains are longer, they are only 7% longer, and not the 33% implied by simply counting cars without other reference points. One might say I am being pedantic here  but if this were LU and the discussion was ref A/C/D/S7/S8 car and trains length you can be sure there would be debating metre lengths down to 3 decimal places  *** +/- any correction for unit length over couplers (as opposed to body lengths) |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 1, 2023 19:16:21 GMT
The new trains are 4-car and can work as a pair ......... So maximum train length is 8cars. Simply stating the count of cars clouds the issue for those unfamiliar with either the old or the new stock....One might say I am being pedantic here... Indeed, car length is an important consideration. I suspect the shorter cars reduces the gap on the curves and thus allows the sliding step technology to be effective; even on curved platforms - which is my original point. Internet forums love pedants'. |
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Post by ijmad on Aug 11, 2023 10:04:03 GMT
Also, it can be significantly more complicated to raise the height of a platform than to raise the height of a pavement. Tolerances on the railway are very significantly tighter than on roads, and in some cases higher platforms infringe on the swept path of other trains (particularly freight trains). This means that often your choice would be between level boarding with a very large horizontal gap or a short horizontal gap with a large step. Yeah, even on the DLR, which is a (comparatively) modern system with a single type of train and no freight to worry about, they have issues meeting the 75mm horizonal / 50 mm vertical platform gap target in the RVAR regulations. I cannot begin to imagine how complicated it is when you have vastly different kinds of passenger and freight trains with different weights, different bogie designs and different speed and acceleration curves all potentially sharing the tracks! |
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Post by jkwok678 on Aug 12, 2023 11:08:19 GMT
Is there any news on when they will switch on mobile connectivity in the core section?
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Post by Chris L on Aug 16, 2023 17:49:57 GMT
Rather worrying that TfL was blaming a problem with a freight train at Custom House causing today's suspension of service between Abbey Wood and Whitechapel.
The photograph on various sites shows one of the engineering locos normally to be found at Plumstead depot.
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Post by f73a on Aug 16, 2023 19:00:03 GMT
I should imagine that people find 'broken down freight train' easier to visualise than 'broken down multi-purpose maintenance vehicle' and thus being the preferred language for the service status.
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Post by Chris L on Aug 17, 2023 5:39:49 GMT
I should imagine that people find 'broken down freight train' easier to visualise than 'broken down multi-purpose maintenance vehicle' and thus being the preferred language for the service status. Engineering train would at least be accurate. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Aug 17, 2023 10:43:17 GMT
I should imagine that people find 'broken down freight train' easier to visualise than 'broken down multi-purpose maintenance vehicle' and thus being the preferred language for the service status. Engineering train would at least be accurate. Hmm - Does this level of precision really matter for most passengers? Looking at this as an ordinary traveller whenever I see a message - "delays/line blocked due to broken train at xxx" - I don't get worked up about the apparent lack of precision on what sort of train has broken down. Personally I just start to think through my options to avoid the problem area and work out how long I am prepared to wait around before switching to an alternate route. As Elizabeth line is actually part of National Railway system I assume National Railway descriptions apply to trains. So if you pop over to Realtime trains you will see the typical descriptors give you a choice of "passenger services", "non passenger services", and "freight". Given that choice of descriptor I have a feeling this may explain why the message to passengers simply repeats what the IT system is telling staff. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 18, 2023 16:30:30 GMT
I think there are several ways it could have been described - broken down train (without reference to what sort of train), or even 'late finish of engineering work' bearing in mind it's an Engineer's train.
I don't think needlepoint precision on the description was either necessary or helpful for most passengers, though it's the sort of thing we (as enthusiasts) often take great interest in.
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Post by 35b on Aug 19, 2023 7:25:15 GMT
I think there are several ways it could have been described - broken down train (without reference to what sort of train), or even 'late finish of engineering work' bearing in mind it's an Engineer's train. I don't think needlepoint precision on the description was either necessary or helpful for most passengers, though it's the sort of thing we (as enthusiasts) often take great interest in. I’d agree, except that using the “freight train” terminology was actively confusing to this reader who knows that the core is not used by freight. |
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Post by melikepie on Sept 12, 2023 8:29:37 GMT
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Post by jimbo on Sept 15, 2023 5:07:10 GMT
Underground News Sept 2023 reports on a paper to the Elizabeth Line committee link showing demand is highest from the east, with crowding to three persons per square metre from Whitechapel to Liverpool Street, from Canary Wharf to Whitechapel, and from Maryland to Stratford. Since over 5 persons per square metre crowding was found on 12% of LU in 2020 (TfL Long-Term Capital Plan 2021 – October 2021 Underground News), this leaves plenty of spare capacity for the foreseeable future for the new line! Interesting that the Shenfield branch still has a Workmen's peak (as we used to call it) at 7am as well as a white-collar workers' peak around 8.30am. Plans for the line assumed most demand would transfer from other lines, with only 2% being new trips, but actual experience is 30% (so 15x expected) demand, from new jobs, shopping trips, maybe moving to new homes, etc. That will change projections for other planned projects: Lewisham extension, Thamesmead DLR, West London Orbital, Crossrail 2. |
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Post by ijmad on Sept 17, 2023 11:16:46 GMT
Underground News Sept 2023 reports on a paper to the Elizabeth Line committee link showing demand is highest from the east, with crowding to three persons per square metre from Whitechapel to Liverpool Street, from Canary Wharf to Whitechapel, and from Maryland to Stratford. Since over 5 persons per square metre crowding was found on 12% of LU in 2020 (TfL Long-Term Capital Plan 2021 – October 2021 Underground News), this leaves plenty of spare capacity for the foreseeable future for the new line! Interesting that the Shenfield branch still has a Workmen's peak (as we used to call it) at 7am as well as a white-collar workers' peak around 8.30am. Plans for the line assumed most demand would transfer from other lines, with only 2% being new trips, but actual experience is 30% (so 15x expected) demand, from new jobs, shopping trips, maybe moving to new homes, etc. That will change projections for other planned projects: Lewisham extension, Thamesmead DLR, West London Orbital, Crossrail 2. Pretty stunning example of induced demand and demonstrates the economic benefits of building a railway. How does the seating layout play with the overcrowding figures? I feel like there is a little bit more 'dead space' on the 345 vs the average underground train because of the transverse seats, as you can't really stand between four peoples' knees. Although I doubt it'd be much more than a few percent difference overall. |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 18, 2023 13:20:21 GMT
How does the seating layout play with the overcrowding figures? I feel like there is a little bit more 'dead space' on the 345 vs the average underground train because of the transverse seats, as you can't really stand between four peoples' knees. Although I doubt it'd be much more than a few percent difference overall. I was surprised to not find S8 style seating on the 345s |
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Post by Chris L on Sept 18, 2023 16:05:46 GMT
How does the seating layout play with the overcrowding figures? I feel like there is a little bit more 'dead space' on the 345 vs the average underground train because of the transverse seats, as you can't really stand between four peoples' knees. Although I doubt it'd be much more than a few percent difference overall. I was surprised to not find S8 style seating on the 345s Guess which seats go first? At busy times standing people lean on the 4 outer seats. |
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Post by Chris L on Sept 22, 2023 17:28:21 GMT
Big posters at front end of some platforms announcing Assisted despatch at this station (with extra platform staff).
Anyone know why?
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Post by jimbo on Sept 29, 2023 2:50:08 GMT
Connaught Tunnel remains a problem on the line. Delivery in 2023/24 includes "re-railing a 550m section of Connaught Tunnel, one of the older EL assets which runs under the Royal Docks and is subject to water ingress. A protective coating will be added to the new rail to prevent water damage scheduled to complete Q3 2023/24." [Programmes and Investment Committee - 5 October 2023 p.162 / 216]
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Post by Chris L on Sept 29, 2023 5:48:07 GMT
Connaught Tunnel remains a problem on the line. Delivery in 2023/24 includes "re-railing a 550m section of Connaught Tunnel, one of the older EL assets which runs under the Royal Docks and is subject to water ingress. A protective coating will be added to the new rail to prevent water damage scheduled to complete Q3 2023/24." [Programmes and Investment Committee - 5 October 2023 p.162 / 216] The tunnel was extensively rebuilt during the project so a mixture of old and new. |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 29, 2023 14:11:30 GMT
Its great that such an aged infrastructure as the Connaught Tunnel is still able to earn its keep but I always wondered whether it will become a longer-term liability. I hope not, as the service to south-east London is of strategic importance.
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but if this were LU and the discussion was ref A/C/D/S7/S8 car and trains length you can be sure there would be debating metre lengths down to 3 decimal places 
