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Post by spsmiler on Mar 26, 2023 17:47:10 GMT
A quick observation on the "customer" traffic situation on the westbound Central/Liz line interchange at Stratford. There seems to me - and it may be rather unscientific - that there is just not space either side of the stairwell walls/ platform buildings to permit convenient/safe passenger circulation between the two lines and to accommodate the u-turns necessary to get to the staircases if you want other lines. Pax also have to congregate near the Liz line doorways, lest the 345 departs before they board. On the eastbound, things are better, but what are really confusing to a visitor are the Liz line describer being over the Central platform - and the near invisibility of the Oyster validator... I'm not there in the rush hours but maybe train drivers should open platform 3a doors first (rush hours only - at quieter times continue with both sides simultaneously) ?? Even simple announcements on arriving trains telling passengers that if they want to leave the station or to change to any other service (other than the Elizabeth line) they should exit on the left would help
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Post by jimbo on Mar 26, 2023 19:13:58 GMT
In the TfL Budget 2023/24 only LU and EL contribute towards their share of indirect costs, financing cost and renewals here .
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Post by jimbo on Mar 27, 2023 2:56:14 GMT
In October 2022, the Committee considered an update on the potential impact on taxi drivers at Heathrow Airport following the opening of the Elizabeth line. It noted that since then there had been a strong recovery in demand for taxis at the airport. To date, there had not been any reported decreases in the demand as a result of the Elizabeth line opening, and last year was the busiest year in terms of taxi movements through the feeder park, since figures started being recorded in 2010. [Report of the Meeting of the TfL Finance Committee held on 8 March 2023]
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Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 27, 2023 23:54:40 GMT
Does this mean that the line is profitable? Can this data be used to help justify other investments in London's railways - especially Crossrail 2 - as well as 'mini crossrails' in other British conurbations? btw, the primary reason why I use this service as much as I do is 'speed' A pleasant station ambience, air-conditioned trains and high-frequency service are nice to have but still count for very little next to the mere fact that the journeys within* Central London are so much faster and the fares are fully integrated / there is no surcharge for using this service. Shorter station dwell times would be nice too. *When on legacy metals outside of Central London there is little (if any) journey time benefit, indeed from what I've heard said elsewhere plus experienced from Ilford the Elizabeth line has affected some other services in undesirable ways. The Javelin service to St Pancras did something similar in south-east England. Although I have noticed the Elizabeth line has taken customers from other lines, so would be interesting to know the overall figure and not just for the line itself. The dwell times are long at times, especially in central London stations. Most of the drivers are now a lot better on the outside section after transitioning from the 315's. I hated initially some drivers were painfully slow on the outside section and it was only a few that were quick with door operation and approaching and leaving stations fast.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 31, 2023 21:43:53 GMT
I was today studying the line closures for coming Easter weekend. (April 2023)
The central core (Paddington - Abbey Wood) will be closed virtually the whole four days!
All west London trains will terminate at Paddington and east London trains at Liverpool Street.
I will miss the faster central London travel.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 1, 2023 0:01:09 GMT
TfL Board papers for Wednesday 29 March 2023
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 1, 2023 17:11:48 GMT
Thanks for the explanation, but it needs four days?
Is it because every train need updating and then testing?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 1, 2023 22:30:18 GMT
I don’t think so - and you’ve illustrated why the signalling logic is best wayside and not on the trains themselves.
I think it’s more to do with a lot of changes being introduced, some needing to be done during the ‘white periods’ in the NR timetable, and then a considerable suite of tests being run to verify and validate the changes, with time for potential reversion included as well.
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Post by melikepie on May 23, 2023 11:29:30 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on May 28, 2023 14:41:39 GMT
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Post by jimbo on Jun 1, 2023 8:04:22 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 1, 2023 17:04:08 GMT
This should result in almost all trains that currently terminate at Paddington being extended to Old Oak Common.
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Post by jimbo on Jun 1, 2023 20:33:54 GMT
I find it hard to believe that construction of a new public building project, such as Old Oak Common Elizabeth Line, does not automatically include step-free access as part of the design.
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Post by silenthunter on Jun 1, 2023 21:30:29 GMT
This should result in almost all trains that currently terminate at Paddington being extended to Old Oak Common. Wouldn't that be after the reversing sidings at Westbourne Park though?
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Post by dm1 on Jun 1, 2023 23:03:54 GMT
I find it hard to believe that construction of a new public building project, such as Old Oak Common Elizabeth Line, does not automatically include step-free access as part of the design. That is caused primarily by the specifications for the central operating section (COS), Heathrow tunnels, and trains all being incorrect/not following the national standard. The COS and Heathrow stations have platform heights of 1100mm. The entry height of the Class 345 trains is 1100mm. The national standard platform height, to which all the other Elizabeth line stations and all NR stations should be built to is 915mm. Presumably 915mm has been specified for Old Oak Common, to enable level boarding from mainline rolling stock when new rolling stock is procured that meets the national standard (like the Class 745, 755 and 777, and the S-Stock). Specifying 1100mm would allow level boarding from the Class 345, but not for any other rolling stock that has level boarding elsewhere. It also causes problems for freight as the 1100mm platform infringes on the loading guage. The better call would have been to specify everything at 915mm, but that boat has sailed and now the designers are stuck between a rock and a hard place, with the choice between level boarding now, but with operational restrictions on freight and permitted rolling stock, or level boarding for future non-EL rolling stock, but a step for the EL.
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Post by Chris M on Jun 1, 2023 23:09:57 GMT
I find it hard to believe that construction of a new public building project, such as Old Oak Common Elizabeth Line, does not automatically include step-free access as part of the design. This is entirely a consequence of the Crossrail central section achieving step-free access by using a non-standard platform height. The high platforms infringe the loading gauge of at least container trains (and possibly other vehicles too, I can't remember), which is why there isn't step-free access outside the core. Rectifying this will require either (a) the complete reconstruction of all currently step-free platforms (and passageways, etc leading to them in many, possibly most, cases) and the introduction of rolling stock with a lower floor height; or (b) the complete segregation of the Elizabeth line from other National Rail services and reconstruction of all the platforms that are not currently step-free (and passageways, etc). Either option would be both hugely complex (in terms of both logistics and engineering) and hugely expensive. The reasons why high platforms were specified gets political after a couple of steps (and even ignoring that is arguably off-topic for this forum) so this is not the venue to explore this further. edit: I was typing this at the same time dm1 was writing their post making an overlapping set of points. Apologies for the duplication.
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Post by brigham on Jun 2, 2023 7:27:20 GMT
This is entirely a consequence of the Crossrail central section being built to a non-standard specification, after the original concept of a cross-London rail link had been abandoned in favour of yet another 'new Tube for London'.
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Post by greatkingrat on Jun 2, 2023 8:05:50 GMT
I thought the Elizabeth Line would have dedicated platforms at Old Oak, so it wouldn't matter if it was incompatible with other rolling stock?
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Post by Chris M on Jun 2, 2023 9:18:57 GMT
Yes and no. As I understand it there will be two reversing and two through platforms normally used by the Elizabeth line. While it is presently very unlikely that other services will need to use the reversing platforms, the through platforms are also able to be used by other NR services if their typical platforms are out of use for any reason. If you build the platforms there to the non-standard height you lose this flexibility, potentially leading to (greater) disruption and also complicate maintenance. There are advantages and disadvantages to both options.
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Post by 35b on Jun 2, 2023 9:50:12 GMT
This is entirely a consequence of the Crossrail central section being built to a non-standard specification, after the original concept of a cross-London rail link had been abandoned in favour of yet another 'new Tube for London'. More precisely, of a design decision being taken to put the burden of level boarding on the Core platforms rather than designing the train to support level boarding at the 915mm spec. As can be seen on the Anglia cl. 745 and 755 designs, this is possible but with some minor compromises on the arrangement of internal space. I suspect the implications of embedding this in civil engineering will be felt in transport politics long after we are all dead and gone.
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Post by burkitt on Jun 2, 2023 13:49:55 GMT
Does anyone know exactly when the 1100mm platform height for Crossrail was decided? Crossrail has been criticised for adopting this non-standard height, but as far as I'm aware there were no trains with 915mm level boarding on the UK market around the late 2000s - early 2010s when this decision must have been made.
The Stadler Anglia units have 915mm doors but sloping floors within, which aren't suitable for metro operation. I think the first 915mm flat-floored UK trains are the Merseyrail 777s which entered service in January 2023, which is over six years after the original December 2016 target date for class 345 entry to service.
That left Crossrail with the choice of putting the onus for level access on the platforms (easy and low risk compromise) or on the trains (theoretically ideal, but dependent on developing a new train architecture with all the risks involved - and ideally dependent on multiple bidders being willing to commit to develop a new train architecture if they were awarded the contract).
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Post by croxleyn on Jun 2, 2023 15:37:11 GMT
For our older readers, the gap is 7 & a half inches, or a small hand-span. Being imperial-taught, I still have to convert to feel the magnitude of metric dimensions.
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Post by dm1 on Jun 2, 2023 20:48:46 GMT
Does anyone know exactly when the 1100mm platform height for Crossrail was decided? Crossrail has been criticised for adopting this non-standard height, but as far as I'm aware there were no trains with 915mm level boarding on the UK market around the late 2000s - early 2010s when this decision must have been made. The Stadler Anglia units have 915mm doors but sloping floors within, which aren't suitable for metro operation. I think the first 915mm flat-floored UK trains are the Merseyrail 777s which entered service in January 2023, which is over six years after the original December 2016 target date for class 345 entry to service. That left Crossrail with the choice of putting the onus for level access on the platforms (easy and low risk compromise) or on the trains (theoretically ideal, but dependent on developing a new train architecture with all the risks involved - and ideally dependent on multiple bidders being willing to commit to develop a new train architecture if they were awarded the contract). There was the S-Stock running within TfL, which while not entirely mainline stock, was close enough that a version for Crossrail would have been absolutely feasible. Not to mention numerous types of stock on the continent with floor heights even lower than 915mm, while still having entirely level floors. That all recently built rolling stock does not have level boarding is purely a procurement failure as it was not specified in the tenders, not because it was particularly onerous given all the major manufacturers' offerings elsewhere.
At design stage, even passive provision for adjusting the core to 915mm platform heights would have been a good idea (probably ensuring the approach and platform tunnels were large enough to raise the track up slightly), but to my knowledge this was not done.
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Post by jimbo on Jun 3, 2023 5:07:01 GMT
May 2023 may be the completion of the Crossrail project, but not necessarily the completion of service enhancements: source p.168 / 232
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Post by jimbo on Jun 3, 2023 5:47:08 GMT
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Post by Chris L on Jun 3, 2023 9:19:37 GMT
Does anyone know exactly when the 1100mm platform height for Crossrail was decided? Crossrail has been criticised for adopting this non-standard height, but as far as I'm aware there were no trains with 915mm level boarding on the UK market around the late 2000s - early 2010s when this decision must have been made. At design stage, even passive provision for adjusting the core to 915mm platform heights would have been a good idea (probably ensuring the approach and platform tunnels were large enough to raise the track up slightly), but to my knowledge this was not done.
You're applying 20/20 hindsight. The Stadler trains have raised seats to accommodate the wheels. Totally unsuitable for the loads on the trains now. The core section is very busy and level boarding and flat floors are a massive help in getting wheelchairs and pushchairs on and off the trains. Getting the number of large suitcases with wheels on and off is also an important factor in the way the service is performing.
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Post by burkitt on Jun 3, 2023 9:20:14 GMT
There was the S-Stock running within TfL, which while not entirely mainline stock, was close enough that a version for Crossrail would have been absolutely feasible. The S stock is a very good point indeed. It's clearly compatible with platforms shared with mainline services too, at Kew etc. Given it was an established Bombardier product, it would seem that specifying level boarding for Crossrail would have handily tipped the scales in favour of UK manufacture too. It really does seem like Crossrail missed a trick in that case. But it does again make me wonder exactly when 1110mm platforms were specified? How much of the Crossrail design was a legacy of the 1990s iteration, carried over with insufficient scrutiny? Or like carriage length and door spacing, (as well as lift types and many other things) was floor height something else left to bidders to design without Crossrail providing the integration guiding mind they should have?
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Post by croxleyn on Jun 3, 2023 18:08:51 GMT
But don't forget that S-stock is 4-rail DC powered. From observation (I use S-stock from Croxley, and have had one Elizabeth line trip) the acceleration of the latter is far faster, enabled by the overhead line power feed. Rail-fed power would not have been provided to Reading! To provide the pantographs, transformers etc in an S-sock would be a major re-design.
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Post by Chris M on Jun 3, 2023 18:45:00 GMT
However the S stock proves that Bombardier are and were capable of designing a 100% low floor train with a 915mm floor height.
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Post by johnlinford on Jun 3, 2023 19:08:02 GMT
Are the S-Stock able to be moved on the wider rail network and be considered in gauge?
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