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Post by spsmiler on Sept 28, 2022 19:33:02 GMT
There was an article on page 15 of the Evening Standard, Tuesday 27th September 2022 which is relevant to this thread.
The title was "Elizabeth Line delivers £20m boost for TFL"
In short, it says that there have been 14 million more journeys than had been expected on the Elizabeth line and therefore the line is on target to break even (financially) in the year 2023 - 24.
The higher than expected passenger numbers is only partly because the central section opened five weeks earlier than originally forecast. Another part of the story is that more people than had been expected are using this service.
The article also talks about the Elizabeth line being the most reliable railway service in the country with a 94.6 punctuality rating in the four weeks to 20th August. London Overground was fourth most reliable (91.1 punctuality rating) whilst the biggest operator in the country (Govia Thameslink) was well below national average at 75.3.
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Post by jimbo on Sept 28, 2022 21:00:14 GMT
Source seems to be Elizabeth Line Committee papers for 29 September 2022 link More than you could possibly want to know, see from p.21 of 82! |
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Post by Colin D on Oct 1, 2022 7:48:46 GMT
I finally got too take a short trip on the Elizabeth Line yesterday, September 30, TCR to Whitechapel. Very impressed with the the smooth quiet ride. Not sure what the line speed in the tunnel section is at present or if it will be increased later. Would higher speeds make much noise difference as compared with say the Central Line?
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Post by ducatisti on Oct 1, 2022 8:22:23 GMT
Wouldn't increasing speed decrease capacity, in the core section at least.
I can't see noise getting to be at central line levels, a better comparator would be main line railway tunnels, given the size of the tunnels and the type of rolling stock
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Post by jimbo on Oct 1, 2022 9:41:03 GMT
The core section averages 47.59 KM per hour, faster than the Shenfield branch! Overall the E.Line is the fastest of TfL lines link vs. link |
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Post by goldenarrow on Oct 1, 2022 16:59:48 GMT
Not sure what the line speed in the tunnel section is at present or if it will be increased later. Aside from Temporary Speed Restrictions either side of Bond Street to regulate headways whilst services non-stop the station, trains should reach their intended line speeds under normal circumstances. Typically ranging from 60 km/h up to a maximum of 100 km/h in the core. |
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Post by Chris L on Oct 1, 2022 20:15:55 GMT
Interesting problem at Woolwich this morning.
The screens above the platform doors on the westbound platform showed the next four trains were 29 minutes away.
They were actually running normally 5 minutes apart.
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Post by Chris L on Oct 12, 2022 13:12:14 GMT
A post on the from the murky depths site states that the 315s will be withdrawn from service on 26th November.
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Post by silenthunter on Oct 12, 2022 19:54:51 GMT
A post on the from the murky depths site states that the 315s will be withdrawn from service on 26th November. That's the confirmed date of a farewell tour the Branch Line Society is involved in, along with the 315 Preservation Society. Tickets on sale next week. |
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Post by A60stock on Oct 13, 2022 12:04:51 GMT
Sorry if this has been mentioned already but does anyone have the provisional service pattern in tph which will be run come 6th November?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 13, 2022 13:43:21 GMT
Sorry if this has been mentioned already but does anyone have the provisional service pattern in tph which will be run come 6th November? westbound: Off-peak: 2tph Reading 2tph Maidenhead 2tph Heathrow Terminal 5 2tph Heathrow Terminal 4 8tph Paddington (From Shenfield) Peak: 4tph Reading 2tph Heathrow Terminal 5 2tph Heathrow Terminal 4 2tph Paddington (From Abbey Wood) 12tph Paddington (From Shenfield) plus: 0743 Gidea Park-London Liverpool Street 0813 Gidea Park-London Liverpool Street 1735 London Liverpool Street-Gidea Park 1804 London Liverpool Street-Gidea Park |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 14, 2022 13:51:18 GMT
Peak: 4tph Reading 2tph Heathrow Terminal 5 2tph Heathrow Terminal 4 2tph Paddington (From Abbey Wood) 12tph Paddington (From Shenfield) plus: 0743 Gidea Park-London Liverpool Street 0813 Gidea Park-London Liverpool Street 1735 London Liverpool Street-Gidea Park 1804 London Liverpool Street-Gidea Park But for the Covid lockdowns reducing passenger numbers, the rise of working from home and the introduction of slightly longer trains this provision of a measly 14 trains to / from Shenfield in the rush hours would have been catastrophically bad. Why? Overcrowding. I've learnt that during a recession in the early 1990s the signalling capacity on the route to Shenfield was 'messed about with' in a way that reduced the numbers of trains that could run in the rush hours. Apparently this was done because too often trains were running with double yellow signals - rather than green signals - and despite decades of safe operation this became seen as 'unsafe'. I think that everyone who used the route when passenger numbers increased again will remember just how overcrowded the trains became. Some people would say that the overcrowding had reached levels that were seriously dangerous. I can remember even being prevented from accessing the platforms at Ilford because of the over crowding. I never ever experienced this when travelling on this route when there were over 20 trains an hour in the morning rush hours - not even when there was an influx of extra passengers because the Central line was closed for a strike. The only mitigating feature that might save the trains from serious over-overcrowding in the near future is the economic situation and pundits' expectations of another (very severe) downturn. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Oct 14, 2022 17:46:03 GMT
Can anyone explain the rather odd way the line is represented on the diagram at Paddington?
Diagrams solely of the Elisabeth line appear as a continuous line at Paddington, but on the complete version it looks as if you have to get out and go walk-about.
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Post by Chris L on Oct 14, 2022 17:57:17 GMT
Why? Overcrowding. I've learnt that during a recession in the early 1990s the signalling capacity on the route to Shenfield was 'messed about with' in a way that reduced the numbers of trains that could run in the rush hours. Apparently this was done because too often trains were running with double yellow signals - rather than green signals - and despite decades of safe operation this became seen as 'unsafe'. I think that everyone who used the route when passenger numbers increased again will remember just how overcrowded the trains became. Some people would say that the overcrowding had reached levels that were seriously dangerous. I can remember even being prevented from accessing the platforms at Ilford because of the over crowding. I never ever experienced this when travelling on this route when there were over 20 trains an hour in the morning rush hours - not even when there was an influx of extra passengers because the Central line was closed for a strike. The only mitigating feature that might save the trains from serious over-overcrowding in the near future is the economic situation and pundits' expectations of another (very severe) downturn. Longer trains and more standing space plus the ability to move down the train would ease the strain. I suspect a more even service will be better. It is possible to extend the 345s if necessary. |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Oct 14, 2022 19:46:14 GMT
I've learnt that during a recession in the early 1990s the signalling capacity on the route to Shenfield was 'messed about with' in a way that reduced the numbers of trains that could run in the rush hours. Apparently this was done because too often trains were running with double yellow signals - rather than green signals - and despite decades of safe operation this became seen as 'unsafe'. You made the same assertion in your post of January 22nd, and I shall repeat my response to it here - maybe you missed it the first time: More likely that the signalling was altered to reflect demand and current safety standards, and considering that Liverpool Street itself was resignalled in about 1990, it was probably designed pre-recession. The previous signalling was installed shortly after the second world war and was life expired. As signal engineers we dislike trains travelling constantly on two yellows because they're not being driven in the optimal way - the best headway is achieved when a signal changes from two yellows to green just before the driver sees it. When you're constantly driving on two yellows you're always on the braking curve to a red aspect and thus cannot make the most of the line speed. In the pre-TPWS world it also meant drivers were constantly cancelling AWS warnings as a matter of course, with an increased risk (through increased likelihood) of cancelling the AWS for a yellow or red as a reflex action with the potential to result in a SPAD. |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 15, 2022 0:18:26 GMT
Can anyone explain the rather odd way the line is represented on the diagram at Paddington? Diagrams solely of the Elisabeth line appear as a continuous line at Paddington, but on the complete version it looks as if you have to get out and go walk-about. Currently and until through running begins, trains from Abbey Wood to Paddington terminate at the Elizabeth line station which is below Eastbourne Terrace, the road that runs alongside the southwest (platform 1) side of the mainline station. Trains from Reading and Heathrow terminate in the main station, typically platforms 11 and 12. Interchanging takes about 5 minutes (excluding waiting time). From 6 November, all* Elizabeth line trains will call at the belowground Elizabeth line station platforms and no walking will be required to change services. *During normal operation anyway, the possibility exists for services from the west to terminate in the main station during planned or unplanned disruption. |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 15, 2022 14:06:15 GMT
You made the same assertion in your post of January 22nd, and I shall repeat my response to it here - maybe you missed it the first time: Thank you Tom for confirming what I said was accurate. I understand your pov as a signalling person but still hold the view that the result of changing a form of train operations which had many decades of proven safety for something more restrictive which also meant that there had to be a reduction in train frequency ... which then resulted in passengers experiencing severe & often dangerous 'sardine tin' style overcrowding ... was 'less than optimal' and in many ways actually harmed the railway because it discouraged people from using the trains. For the future I would like to see the route to Shenfield resignalled again, this time using a system whereby Elizabeth line trains can be automated, with frequencies of at least 20 trains an hour being restored. Possibly it would need to be a hybrid signalling system so that at off-peak times the route remains fully open to other trains, including freight (goods) trains between Barking and the North London Line, Greater Anglia access to Ilford Depot and C2C. Perhaps to provide extra turnback facilities in west London the line should (at the same time) also be extended to the HS2 station Old Oak Common to the west of London and some trains might need to reverse direction of travel in the bay platform at Hayes & Harlington. |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 15, 2022 14:23:56 GMT
(I'm adding this as a separate message to the one above because its about something else...)
I recall reading many years ago that as part of the Crossrail project there was a desire to minimise delays caused by point failures (etc) by physically isolating the tracks used by what are now Elizabeth line trains from the rest of the system.
What was going to be done was something like retain just four locations where trains could intermingle.
Notes that I made at the time suggested that many freight trains heading for Tilbury would be diverted away from the North London line to travel via what we know as the Goblin route and the connections at Forest Gate would be severed, as well as the 'ladder' tracks which offered several routes for trains to / from the North London line via the fast tracks.
The last time I looked none of this actually came to pass, but when Network Rail were renewing the infrastructure as part of the Crossrail project did they reduce connections elsewhere along the route?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Oct 15, 2022 16:38:06 GMT
Can anyone explain the rather odd way the line is represented on the diagram at Paddington? Diagrams solely of the Elisabeth line appear as a continuous line at Paddington, but on the complete version it looks as if you have to get out and go walk-about. Currently and until through running begins, trains from Abbey Wood to Paddington terminate at the Elizabeth line station which is below Eastbourne Terrace, the road that runs alongside the southwest (platform 1) side of the mainline station. Trains from Reading and Heathrow terminate in the main station, typically platforms 11 and 12. Interchanging takes about 5 minutes (excluding waiting time). From 6 November, all* Elizabeth line trains will call at the belowground Elizabeth line station platforms and no walking will be required to change services. *During normal operation anyway, the possibility exists for services from the west to terminate in the main station during planned or unplanned disruption. Thanks, Chris. I was a bit confused because I realised that although I'd gone for Heathrow to Paddington and from Paddington towards Abbey Wood, I'd never actually been through Paddington, and hence could not answer from experience what happened. An 'in carriage' diagram (I assume) that I found on line showed the line without interruption. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 21, 2022 12:17:13 GMT
Through timetable from 6 November available: Elizabeth Line 6 November 2022Ealing Broadway>Whitechapel 32min; District 50min Ealing Broadway>Stratford 41min (same platform change); Central 42min |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 21, 2022 13:47:58 GMT
Through timetable from 6 November available: Elizabeth Line 6 November 2022Ealing Broadway>Whitechapel 32min; District 50min Ealing Broadway>Stratford 41min (same platform change); Central 42min I am baffled. 9 minutes on the Elizabeth line from Whitechapel to Stratford? Or is it that there will not be any through trains ... hence the 'same platform change'? Also, the timings imply that if there are through trains then the time saving will be perhaps just 8 minutes I wonder what the timings will be between Ealing Broadway and Liverpool Street? Oh and if there will be times when the wait for the Elizabeth line train will be long enough for it to be faster to just catch the next Central line train east |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 21, 2022 16:19:59 GMT
I am baffled. 9 minutes on the Elizabeth line from Whitechapel to Stratford? Or is it that there will not be any through trains ... hence the 'same platform change'? Also, the timings imply that if there are through trains then the time saving will be perhaps just 8 minutes I wonder what the timings will be between Ealing Broadway and Liverpool Street? Oh and if there will be times when the wait for the Elizabeth line train will be long enough for it to be faster to just catch the next Central line train east Timetable link shows 5min Whitechapel>Stratford, no through trains Ealing>Stratford Ealing>Liverpool Street 30-32min; Central 35min |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 21, 2022 19:11:46 GMT
I believe there is some padding in the timetable between Acton and Paddington to help ensure that trains are ready to take their path in the central section between reversing Shenfield trains. This may be trimmed later in the light of experience. Could add 5 to 7 minutes to the trip!
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Post by Chris L on Oct 21, 2022 19:17:59 GMT
I am baffled. 9 minutes on the Elizabeth line from Whitechapel to Stratford? Or is it that there will not be any through trains ... hence the 'same platform change'? Also, the timings imply that if there are through trains then the time saving will be perhaps just 8 minutes I wonder what the timings will be between Ealing Broadway and Liverpool Street? Oh and if there will be times when the wait for the Elizabeth line train will be long enough for it to be faster to just catch the next Central line train east Timetable link shows 5min Whitechapel>Stratford, no through trains Ealing>Stratford Ealing>Liverpool Street 30-32min; Central 35min There will be through trains from the west to Shenfield from next May and vice versa. |
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Post by brigham on Oct 22, 2022 7:58:52 GMT
(I'm adding this as a separate message to the one above because its about something else...) I recall reading many years ago that as part of the Crossrail project there was a desire to minimise delays caused by point failures (etc) by physically isolating the tracks used by what are now Elizabeth line trains from the rest of the system. The Crossrail project was to make cross-London traffic quicker and easier, both for passengers and goods. It rapidly turned into another New Tube for London, the most prestigious one so far. By its very construction, this effectively isolated it from the rail network in general. I imagine the usual 'improvements' to sever any remaining flexibility will shortly be forthcoming. |
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Post by ijmad on Oct 23, 2022 15:57:06 GMT
Can anyone explain the rather odd way the line is represented on the diagram at Paddington? Diagrams solely of the Elisabeth line appear as a continuous line at Paddington, but on the complete version it looks as if you have to get out and go walk-about. Currently and until through running begins, trains from Abbey Wood to Paddington terminate at the Elizabeth line station which is below Eastbourne Terrace, the road that runs alongside the southwest (platform 1) side of the mainline station. Trains from Reading and Heathrow terminate in the main station, typically platforms 11 and 12. Interchanging takes about 5 minutes (excluding waiting time). From 6 November, all* Elizabeth line trains will call at the belowground Elizabeth line station platforms and no walking will be required to change services. *During normal operation anyway, the possibility exists for services from the west to terminate in the main station during planned or unplanned disruption. It seems it's not quite all of them, considerable numbers of early morning services and a few near close of service will continue to terminate at Paddington and Liverpool St surface platforms - especially on Sundays. There's a few Readings starting from the surface platforms throughout Sunday morning until as late as 10:11, although all the Shenfields are running through by 8am. On weekdays, through running gets in to its groove a bit earlier before the peak begins. I'd guess this may be further smoothed over next year or it might be a permanent feature of the Sunday timetable at least. |
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Post by 35b on Oct 24, 2022 7:42:50 GMT
(I'm adding this as a separate message to the one above because its about something else...) I recall reading many years ago that as part of the Crossrail project there was a desire to minimise delays caused by point failures (etc) by physically isolating the tracks used by what are now Elizabeth line trains from the rest of the system. The Crossrail project was to make cross-London traffic quicker and easier, both for passengers and goods. It rapidly turned into another New Tube for London, the most prestigious one so far. By its very construction, this effectively isolated it from the rail network in general. I imagine the usual 'improvements' to sever any remaining flexibility will shortly be forthcoming. When were there proposals for freight use? None of the plans in my recollection have ever been for other than passenger use on dedicated routes. |
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Post by d7666 on Oct 24, 2022 16:02:24 GMT
The Crossrail project was to make cross-London traffic quicker and easier, both for passengers and goods. When were there proposals for freight use? None of the plans in my recollection have ever been for other than passenger use on dedicated routes. AFAIR Crossrail - as we know it now - is the one result [so far] of an across London network of new main line tunnels dating from 1930/1940s. One of these main line tunnels was GWR <-> LNER(GE) via Paddington and Liverpool Street. But it is probably pushing things a bit too far to state today's Crossrail project ever considered freight. The legacy line of route did once, if you go back far enough in time. What is now Thameslink core was once a primary cross London freight route with up to 30 a day each way even in early 1960s. No way freight appeared in any 1970s onwards reopening proposal. But it would not be wholly incorrect to describe the Snow Hill route as it was once known as a passenger and freight line. If you go back far enough. |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 24, 2022 19:46:35 GMT
Freight trains still use both eastern and western sections of what are now known as the Elizabeth line.
Especially in west London the freight trains use the same tracks as Elizabeth line trains. To the east of London they tend to use the 'fast' tracks which are mostly used by limited stop and express passenger services, however trains to / from Tilbury via Barking encroach upon / cross over the tracks normally used by Elizabeth line trains as there is no other available route. I think the place where the routes separate is called Forest Gate Junction.
I recall BR trying to optimise train throughput between Stratford and Forest Gate Junction by installing several (three I think) sets of connecting tracks between the fast and the electric* lines so that the signallers controlling that section of railway had a choice of location where the container etc trains travelling between the North London Line and Forest Gate Junction could be switched between tracks. The signallers would choose to use sets of linking tracks that would have the least impact on passenger services, and this choice would vary from train to train depending on their exact locations at that time, direction of travel, etc.
In the early days of talk about Crossrail I saw comments suggesting that all this might be removed - plus Forest Gate Junction - so as to reduce the possibility of delays to Crossrail trains. In all there were to be just four locations where trains on the electric line (used by Crossrail) could interact with other trains. North London line freight trains east of Gospel Oak would be diverted via the Goblin route instead.
Obviously this has not happened!
*Probably because of the 1940s electrification and also change over of which tracks were used by fast and all stations trains, the tracks used by local 'stopping' services were called 'electric lines'.
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Post by goldenarrow on Oct 30, 2022 20:27:09 GMT
Oyster validators have been installed and commissioned at Farringdon in the intermediate area between the escalators to/from the Elizabeth line and Thameslink. This ends the rigmarole of having the traverse the gate line if mixing ticket types when changing between the two.
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