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Post by spsmiler on Aug 29, 2022 19:47:24 GMT
The ramps were provided for post office parcel trolleys. I doubt they meet disabled access guidelines due to angle and length. I went to Romford last week and saw a wheelchair user using a ramp as part of their journey out of the station. When they reached the concourse at the bottom of the ramp they went to a lift. This may sound nonsensical but the ramps start partway along the platform whilst the lifts are at the eastern end of the platform where regular users will not necessarily look to see if there is a lift. Most likely regular passengers who would normally wish to use a lift will change their behaviour once they realise the new situation - and this is more likely to happen when departing from the station than when arriving at the station. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Sunday 28th August I had what used to be called an 'AwayDay' by train. This required me to catch an early morning train from Ilford station and I noted that much of the hoarding has been removed from the station frontage and what had been a wall between the ticket sales area and the circulating area at the top of the stairs. So, I took a few photos, as seen in the tweet below twitter.com/citytransportin/ status/1564228616992526339 I have also discovered that the tweet links only automatically parse for logged-in readers, everyone else needs to reconstruct the link provided. Whilst there I was told by a member of staff that the new ticket hall 'might' open during the coming week (today is Monday 29th) with a hint of possibly 31st August. People will need to watch the media to know for sure. The member of staff who I spoke with had actually been chasing after me, because I was using a dangerous piece of equipment called a camera. Oh boy, are they in for a shock when the station opens and dozens of people turn up with cameras. The arrival of my train caused our discussion to be cut short before I got to tell them about eyeglasses and even shirt buttons with inbuilt cameras. Sunday was one of the days when all trains travelling east - west through Stratford station (Greater Anglia, Elizabeth line and C2C) call at platforms 5 and 8. This included my train to Norwich, which had door issues and ended up taking residence there for 35 minutes. Once it was realised that there was a problem I saw that some eastbound C2C and Elizabeth line trains had been diverted via platform 10 and the guard on the train I was on made frequent announcements pointing out to any passengers who had just taken advantage of the cross-platform interchange with Central line trains at platform 6 that this was not the train they were expecting to be on and that they should alight. Once this train finally got going its next scheduled stop was at Colchester - so anyone on this train by mistake would have had a very long journey! My day out was to the North Norfolk Railway where (amongst many other trains) I saw 20227 Sherlock Holmes in a psuedo LUL livery in a siding. |
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Post by A60stock on Aug 30, 2022 12:00:05 GMT
Sorry, I know the answer may already be in this thread but there are 45 pages to go through.
What is TFL's obsession with refusing to install PEDs on brand new above ground stations? We've seen this happen a few times now when stations were/are new:
Jubilee line: Canning Town, West Ham, Stratford
Crossrail: Custom House, Abbey Wood
The technology is clearly there and regularly implemented in other countries, so why are new lines in the UK not receiving them for any NEW above ground stations built at the time when the rolling stock is uniform and brand new?
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Post by 35b on Aug 30, 2022 12:43:26 GMT
Sorry, I know the answer may already be in this thread but there are 45 pages to go through. What is TFL's obsession with refusing to install PEDs on brand new above ground stations? We've seen this happen a few times now when stations were/are new: Jubilee line: Canning Town, West Ham, Stratford Crossrail: Custom House, Abbey Wood The technology is clearly there and regularly implemented in other countries, so why are new lines in the UK not receiving them for any NEW above ground stations built at the time when the rolling stock is uniform and brand new? I thought the justification for PEDs was to do with ventilation, so not necessary above ground. |
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Post by trt on Aug 30, 2022 13:12:33 GMT
PEDS are primarily for ventilation reasons, yes, as well as for full GOA4 operation. As there's no chance of "driverless" in the foreseeable future, then there's no reason to go to the expense of PEDs outdoors. It's not just the installation costs, but the maintenance and lifecycle costs, especially when located in the harsher environment of being exposed to the elements. As a future retro-fit option, however, platform and stations designed today could make the job cheaper and easier IF there was ever call to fit them.
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Post by ijmad on Aug 30, 2022 14:00:37 GMT
PEDs can enhance safety outdoors, but I imagine they're less necessary for a service pattern where most trains stop at most stations and even when they pass it's at a relatively low speed.
In Japan you often see outdoor PEDs at stations but this is so Shinkansen can pass safely at 200mph without sucking people off the platforms into their wake vortex...
Whereas wake vortex from a Class 345 outdoors is just a pleasant breeze!
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Post by stapler on Aug 30, 2022 15:54:07 GMT
GA could do with them at Ingatestone.
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Post by silenthunter on Aug 30, 2022 18:31:08 GMT
GA could do with them at Ingatestone. Would have issues working with both Aventras and Flirts though, right? |
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Post by ijmad on Aug 30, 2022 21:11:18 GMT
GA could do with them at Ingatestone. Would have issues working with both Aventras and Flirts though, right? |
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Post by stapler on Aug 31, 2022 9:25:08 GMT
It was more a comment on the exceptionally narrow 1840s down platforms there rather then the exact sort of rolling stock, but yes, of course, the platform doors have to be at exactly the right spacing for the cars in use..
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 31, 2022 13:56:55 GMT
PEDS are primarily for ventilation reasons, yes, as well as for full GOA4 operation. As there's no chance of "driverless" in the foreseeable future, then there's no reason to go to the expense of PEDs outdoors. It's not just the installation costs, but the maintenance and lifecycle costs, especially when located in the harsher environment of being exposed to the elements. As a future retro-fit option, however, platform and stations designed today could make the job cheaper and easier IF there was ever call to fit them. Sorry, I know the answer may already be in this thread but there are 45 pages to go through. What is TFL's obsession with refusing to install PEDs on brand new above ground stations? We've seen this happen a few times now when stations were/are new: Jubilee line: Canning Town, West Ham, Stratford Crossrail: Custom House, Abbey Wood The technology is clearly there and regularly implemented in other countries, so why are new lines in the UK not receiving them for any NEW above ground stations built at the time when the rolling stock is uniform and brand new? Please bear in mind that Lyon Metro line D (early 1990s) and Vancouver Skytrain (mid 1980s) have been GOA4 ever since they first opened* several decades ago and neither of them has platform doors / gates at stations - whether above or below ground. (oh and I am old enough to have travelled on them shortly after they opened!) *possibly before the GoA classification was even codified I understand that the two new Northern line stations were built with retrofitting platform doors in mind. If I understand correctly, for safety reasons related to passengers possibly being hurt or trapped in a wrong place by the closing Peds, LUL stations with platform doors must have a member of staff on each platform at all times - which increases operating costs and likely could see a station (partially) closing at short notice if no member of staff was available - or even if the duty member of staff needed an urgent toilet break and there was no-one else (who is fully trained for the job) available to stand in. btw, the DLR not always having someone at the front of the train watching out for people on the track (etc) is a feature also found on GoA4 systems. The principle reason why the DLR is different is that a real human located on the train is in charge of safe train despatch from stations. |
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Post by Chris L on Aug 31, 2022 15:10:36 GMT
The new lifts at Ilford are available for use from today. Between the new ticket hall and platforms.
The rest of the new ticket hall is not yet ready.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 31, 2022 16:50:15 GMT
Please bear in mind that Lyon Metro line D (early 1990s) and Vancouver Skytrain (mid 1980s) have been GOA4 ever since they first opened* several decades ago and neither of them has platform doors / gates at stations - whether above or below ground. (oh and I am old enough to have travelled on them shortly after they opened!) *possibly before the GoA classification was even codified btw, in terms of the DLR not always having someone at the front of the train watching out for people on the track (etc) it is little different to GoA4 systems. Safe train despatch from stations is a different issue. The requirement for PEDs on automatically operated trains is one set by the UK safety regulator so practice in other countries is not relevant; the DLR operates without PEDS only under grandfather rights and would not be allowed to begin operating in its present manner today. I understand that the two new Northern line stations were built with retrofitting platform doors in mind. If I understand correctly, for safety reasons related to passengers possibly being hurt or trapped in a wrong place by the closing Peds, LUL stations with platform doors must have a member of staff on each platform at all times - which increases operating costs and likely could see a station (partially) closing at short notice if no member of staff was available - or even if the duty member of staff needed an urgent toilet break and there was no-one else (who is fully trained for the job) available to stand in. This is my understanding too. The design of a PED platform edge is different to that of a traditional platform in that in the former case the platform edge is vertical to best support the (quite significant) weight of the doors and associated machinery. A traditional platform has a space under the platform edge so there is room for someone to remain clear of a train if they fall off the platform. This means that it is much more dangerous for a person to be on the track-side of the PEDs, especially as the PEDs themselves reduce the visibility for train operators along the sides of their train and largely prevent them seeing anyone who is trapped (which is why the goal with peds is to make the gap between them and the train too small for anyone to get between them). This I believe is the (or at least a) reason for the member of staff on the platform. |
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Post by Chris L on Sept 1, 2022 6:33:35 GMT
Apparently there was an official opening ceremony for the new ticket hall at Ilford yesterday.
(When I was there around lunchtime all the ticket gates were covered in timber boxes and and snagging work was in progress.)
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 1, 2022 12:16:55 GMT
Chris M , Grandfather rights, how interesting. Thanks, I did not know this. I'd suggest that the DLR has an excellent safety record and with over three decades of experience its way of operating is suitable for further exploitation elsewhere here in the UK without platform doors. The HSE people are going too far (again) imposing disproportionate extra construction costs and higher operating costs that ultimately will render entire projects unviable. (my own pov, I stress) Regarding platform edge designs, this quote from an online shop web page for a model railway platform might be of relevance source: www.scalemodelscenery.co.uk/lx403-oo-single-sided-long-straight-platform-280mm-x-66mm-pack-of-2---oo4mm176-10487-p.aspChris L I'll be 'passing through' Ilford station later today.
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Post by trt on Sept 1, 2022 12:37:35 GMT
I'd suggest that the DLR has an excellent safety record and with over three decades of experience its way of operating is suitable for further exploitation elsewhere here in the UK without platform doors. The HSE people are going too far (again) imposing disproportionate extra construction costs and higher operating costs that ultimately will render entire projects unviable. (my own pov, I stress) Recent coroner's report on an incident that basically says the DLR has a long way to go regarding safety! |
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Post by brigham on Sept 1, 2022 15:04:02 GMT
Recent coroner's report on an incident that basically says the DLR has a long way to go regarding safety! Not as far as the road traffic sector, though. |
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Post by trt on Sept 2, 2022 8:21:29 GMT
Recent coroner's report on an incident that basically says the DLR has a long way to go regarding safety! Not as far as the road traffic sector, though. Wandering OFF-TOPIC here, but driverless trains, driverless cars... Meh. Will we see Pedestrian / Vehicle interface barriers? Will technology developed for driverless vehicles, such as accurate detection of people, their intentions, body language, inherent randomness of stumbles, faints etc, contribute to enhanced monitoring of the PTI on the railways? I suppose stopping distances etc. make it a different kettle of fish. Whatever the future holds, the Elizabeth Line, with its PEDs and running over old-school infrastructure, is here TODAY. Now, they could, I suppose, put the PEDs back as far as the yellow line on NR... you'd need to look at widening some platforms considerably if they did that, though. And getting everyone alighting back onto the safe side of the barrier for a timely dispatch would be a trick. |
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Post by Chris M on Sept 2, 2022 9:56:36 GMT
Not as far as the road traffic sector, though. Wandering OFF-TOPIC here, but driverless trains, driverless cars... Meh. Will we see Pedestrian / Vehicle interface barriers? Will technology developed for driverless vehicles, such as accurate detection of people, their intentions, body language, inherent randomness of stumbles, faints etc, contribute to enhanced monitoring of the PTI on the railways? In July 2020 TfL wrote to the coroner in response to the inquest cited above, in relevant part they said This suggests the technology is being worked on, but is not mature enough yet to be practical. |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 2, 2022 12:47:34 GMT
re: automation without platform screen doors (etc) I believe that Lyon and Vancouver have tech that works. Returning to the Elizabeth line, the new ticket hall building at Ilford did indeed open yesterday, 1st September at around midday. So here is a final batch of brand new photos - I only tweeted these four images but I took more than that and some of them will be seen in the short slide show video that I'm about to create. twitter.com/citytransportin/ status/1565489474821394432 |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 2, 2022 13:16:12 GMT
Thanks for the link. I've followed the link, seen the pdf and take note of what was said. There are people who advocate platform screen doors at all stations - for this very reason. Irrespective of whether they are automated or otherwise. If the DLR needs platform doors then for the same reason so do all other railways. Its the only way to prevent people falling off a platform edge and prevent tragedies such as this - no matter how close the approaching train is to them at the time. |
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Post by Chris L on Sept 2, 2022 13:18:12 GMT
In July 2020 TfL wrote to the coroner in response to the inquest cited above, in relevant part they said This suggests the technology is being worked on, but is not mature enough yet to be practical. Something like this was tried by LUL several years ago on part of the Circle line. |
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Post by trt on Sept 2, 2022 15:14:27 GMT
Thanks for the link. I've followed the link, seen the pdf and take note of what was said. There are people who advocate platform screen doors at all stations - for this very reason. Irrespective of whether they are automated or otherwise. If the DLR needs platform doors then for the same reason so do all other railways. Its the only way to prevent people falling off a platform edge and prevent tragedies such as this - no matter how close the approaching train is to them at the time. For fear of causing a thread split... Well TfL and others (NR) have decided that they're not putting PEDs on the non-tunnel section stations, and that is that! With the multiple operators on the line and the cost of installation and maintenance, I can understand it. New stations do seem to be designed for ease of future retrofitting, however. With an operator at the front of a train, with a view and the ability to slam on the brakes, regardless of GOA, there will be some tragedies which will/could have been be avoided, such as in this case. I think this one sticks in the craw because it wasn't inevitable that the impact would have happened - it was the delay in emergency stopping the train that was an immediate causal factor. If they wanted to remove inevitable impacts as well as the ones that could be avoided, then they could run the station like an airport terminal and not let anyone onto the platform until the train is standing, and not let a train depart until the "apron" is clear of civilians and sealed! But that's not going to happen in my life time. |
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Post by brigham on Sept 2, 2022 16:40:03 GMT
...not let anyone onto the platform until the train is standing, and not let a train depart until the "apron" is clear of civilians and sealed! But that's not going to happen in my life time. It used to be like that at King's Cross, years back. You could always buy a 'return half' in the queue at the gate. |
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Sept 2, 2022 17:22:30 GMT
The engineering of the stations continues to impress me. The ride is very smooth. I am somewhat embarrassed to admit that I love the noise that the trains make as they go through the tunnels as well. The stations are vast and could perhaps do with some artwork and potentially more benches to assist those unable to walk quickly to the exits.
However, I was disappointed with the signage at Farringdon. There should be signs saying "Met Line", "Circle line" and British Rail etc. Instead it just says "Farringdon" and I think the underground symbol next to it. This will confuse people because they will think that they are already in the "underground" station.
I also think there needs to be more signs telling people to touch out of the Crossrail exit and back in at the Underground entrance. Maybe TFL needs a symbol on the tube maps to denote where you need to briefly leave a station and re-enter at another entrance for an interchange. The "dotted line" symbol on the tube maps may be sufficient for this purpose in my view but the inconsistencies on the map do not help users.
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Post by jukes on Sept 2, 2022 20:31:00 GMT
TfL are supposed to be placing validators within Farringdon so pax going to and from the NR platforms to and from the EL platforms needn't have to exit and re-enter - as to when TfL will get round to placing the validators is unknown. Pax exiting the Integrated Ticket Hall and re-enetring the Underground Ticket hall or the Barbican EL ticket hall are covered by a 10-minute OSI.
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Post by brigham on Sept 3, 2022 7:45:44 GMT
... However, I was disappointed with the signage at Farringdon. There should be signs saying "Met Line", "Circle line" and British Rail etc. Instead it just says "Farringdon" and I think the underground symbol next to it. This will confuse people because they will think that they are already in the "underground" station. As far as most passengers are concerned, they are! |
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 6, 2022 13:27:29 GMT
This is my short slide show YouTube - although it is open to passengers the station building is not yet complete - a large illuminated Elizabeth line badge is to be fitted to the frontage, along with a British Rail / National Rail double arrow symbol.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 12, 2022 16:29:00 GMT
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Sept 28, 2022 9:11:01 GMT
Bond Street station is due to open on 24 October 2022.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 28, 2022 10:53:28 GMT
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