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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 26, 2020 18:55:01 GMT
If Canary Wharf hadn't been redeveloped the DLR would never have been built. . It was the Jubilee Extension that was fu7nded by the developers of Canary Wharf. The DLR was planned and construction started before O&Y started on the Wharf. Credit Suisse sold the project to O&Y in 1988 but the redevelopment of Canary Wharf into offices was first proposed by Credit Suisse Chairman Michael von Clemm in 1984 during a lunch meeting with LDDC Chief Executive Reg Ward. Construction of the DLR started in 1985 but if it hadn't been in the pipeline then the Canary Wharf project wouldn't have been feasible. There's a memorial to von Clemm in Cabot Square.
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Post by Chris L on Aug 26, 2020 19:52:36 GMT
It was the Jubilee Extension that was fu7nded by the developers of Canary Wharf. The DLR was planned and construction started before O&Y started on the Wharf. Credit Suisse sold the project to O&Y in 1988 but the redevelopment of Canary Wharf into offices was first proposed by Credit Suisse Chairman Michael von Clemm in 1984 during a lunch meeting with LDDC Chief Executive Reg Ward. Construction of the DLR started in 1985 but if it hadn't been in the pipeline then the Canary Wharf project wouldn't have been feasible. There's a memorial to von Clemm in Cabot Square. It was funded by the LDDC and one option considered was a street running tram. It started with single units and Canary Wharf station had to be closed soon after to be expanded as the scale of the development increased. The LDDC was the initial operator and Rockwell typeface was used on the trains and stations.
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Post by psl on Aug 26, 2020 20:40:41 GMT
Credit Suisse sold the project to O&Y in 1988 but the redevelopment of Canary Wharf into offices was first proposed by Credit Suisse Chairman Michael von Clemm in 1984 during a lunch meeting with LDDC Chief Executive Reg Ward. Construction of the DLR started in 1985 but if it hadn't been in the pipeline then the Canary Wharf project wouldn't have been feasible. There's a memorial to von Clemm in Cabot Square. It was funded by the LDDC and one option considered was a street running tram. It started with single units and Canary Wharf station had to be closed soon after to be expanded as the scale of the development increased. The LDDC was the initial operator and Rockwell typeface was used on the trains and stations.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 27, 2020 7:55:56 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 27, 2020 11:12:50 GMT
I recall there being a certain amount of public ridicule because the trains were calling at what (for a while) was a ghost station.
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Post by peterc on Aug 28, 2020 14:53:59 GMT
Meanwhile I just heard an advert on LBC for Papermill House, a housing development by Galliard Homes (prices from £195k) which cheerily announced that it was "13 minute walk to Romford Station where from next year Crossrail will have you in the City in just 27 minutes". Whoops... That sounds about right. It just won't take you across the City.
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 28, 2020 15:32:23 GMT
Just how quick at the moment is the fastest service from Romford to Liverpool Street?
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Aug 28, 2020 21:09:54 GMT
Just how quick at the moment is the fastest service from Romford to Liverpool Street? Off peak train from Romford to Liverpool Street by Greater Anglia train is 17 minutes. The all stations TfL rail is about 30 minutes.
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 28, 2020 22:49:05 GMT
Just how quick at the moment is the fastest service from Romford to Liverpool Street? Off peak train from Romford to Liverpool Street by Greater Anglia train is 17 minutes. The all stations TfL rail is about 30 minutes. Thanks for that, just proves that the 'developer' has never used a train time table, or a train probably
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Post by silenthunter on Aug 29, 2020 15:16:49 GMT
However, you do have a considerable slow down as you come into Liverpool Street High Level, something you won't have with Crossrail.
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Post by Deep Level on Aug 29, 2020 15:32:28 GMT
However, you do have a considerable slow down as you come into Liverpool Street High Level, something you won't have with Crossrail. Crossrail has an additional stop at Whitechapel though which will probably balance this out, that's assuming a train won't get stuck behind a delayed train from Abbey Wood.
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 29, 2020 17:18:48 GMT
However, you do have a considerable slow down as you come into Liverpool Street High Level, something you won't have with Crossrail. Judged by previous experience the slow down for westbound trains to arrive at Liverpool Street station is not that significant. When we had off-peak non-stop trains from Ilford the timetable allowed 11 minutes travelling west to Liverpool St stn and 10 minutes travelling east towards Ilford station. Usually in Class 312 trains with open blinds behind the train driver so that it was possible to enjoy a forward view, but occasionally in a Class 309 where there was a choice of open saloon or side corridor compartment seating - both being features that do not apply to Class 345 Crossrail trains.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 30, 2020 8:56:22 GMT
Usually in Class 312 trains with open blinds behind the train driver so that it was possible to enjoy a forward view, but occasionally in a Class 309 where there was a choice of open saloon or side corridor compartment seating - both being features that do not apply to Class 345 Crossrail trains. Not really a fair comparison as the services once operated by 309s and 312s were not the all-stations services that that 345s are inheriting. "Dusty Bins" (321s) or 360s are standard fare today, with the prospect of 720s to come. Compartments haven't been seen on the all-stations services since the line was electrified in 1949, and even then they didn't have side corridors!
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Post by peterc on Sept 1, 2020 7:54:48 GMT
Usually in Class 312 trains with open blinds behind the train driver so that it was possible to enjoy a forward view, but occasionally in a Class 309 where there was a choice of open saloon or side corridor compartment seating - both being features that do not apply to Class 345 Crossrail trains. Not really a fair comparison as the services once operated by 309s and 312s were not the all-stations services that that 345s are inheriting. "Dusty Bins" (321s) or 360s are standard fare today, with the prospect of 720s to come. Compartments haven't been seen on the all-stations services since the line was electrified in 1949, and even then they didn't have side corridors! IIRC the outer suburban stock (but not the 309s) did end up replacing the occasional 306 or, later, 315 on the stoppers but certainly not on a regular basis.
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Post by grahamhewett on Sept 1, 2020 16:48:23 GMT
It was the Jubilee Extension that was fu7nded by the developers of Canary Wharf. The DLR was planned and construction started before O&Y started on the Wharf. Credit Suisse sold the project to O&Y in 1988 but the redevelopment of Canary Wharf into offices was first proposed by Credit Suisse Chairman Michael von Clemm in 1984 during a lunch meeting with LDDC Chief Executive Reg Ward. Construction of the DLR started in 1985 but if it hadn't been in the pipeline then the Canary Wharf project wouldn't have been feasible. There's a memorial to von Clemm in Cabot Square. Actually, the roots of the DLR go back further. The politics of the the thing were that Ward and his ministerial masters were desperate to have their own captive transport toy which was not part of the LT system (or beholden to DfT say so). Their initial thought was for an on-street tramway which ran up against the need for primary legislation and the incorporation of the 1870 Act definitions; that was not what DoE/Ward had in mind at all. Their next ploy was a trolleybus system - a proposal which rested on the DoE assumption that there was such a thing as the Trolleybus Act (analogous, or so they assumed, to the Tramways Act). We in Dft(DTp at the time ) were duly summoned to a meeting chaired by the pugnacious and aggressive DoE Deputy Secretary in charge of Docklands matters at the time, John Gunn, and told that we had to agree to the trolleybus plan. The meeting collapsed when our side pointed out that there was no such animal, trolleybuses resting legally on set of highly specific local Acts, some Construction and Use regulations, and a quaint definition used by the Railway Inspectorate. Fresh legislation would be needed....
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Post by rapidtransitman on Sept 1, 2020 17:00:47 GMT
Actually, the roots of the DLR go back further. The politics of the the thing were that Ward and his ministerial masters were desperate to have their own captive transport toy which was not part of the LT system (or beholden to DfT say so). Their initial thought was for an on-street tramway which ran up against the need for primary legislation and the incorporation of the 1870 Act definitions; that was not what DoE/Ward had in mind at all. Their next ploy was a trolleybus system - a proposal which rested on the DoE assumption that there was such a thing as the Trolleybus Act (analogous, or so they assumed, to the Tramways Act). We in Dft(DTp at the time ) were duly summoned to a meeting chaired by the pugnacious and aggressive DoE Deputy Secretary in charge of Docklands matters at the time, John Gunn, and told that we had to agree to the trolleybus plan. The meeting collapsed when our side pointed out that there was no such animal, trolleybuses resting legally on set of highly specific local Acts, some Construction and Use regulations, and a quaint definition used by the Railway Inspectorate. Fresh legislation would be needed.... Indeed, this episode, and the Canary Wharf saga, is covered by the second of the five part series at www.londonreconnections.com/2016/fleet-jubilee-line-part-third-conservative-view/">LondonReconnections.com.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 1, 2020 20:51:57 GMT
our side pointed out that there was no such animal, trolleybuses resting legally on set of highly specific local Acts, some Construction and Use regulations, and a quaint definition used by the Railway Inspectorate. Fresh legislation would be needed.... Curious, as I recall when I took my driving test in 1979 trolleybuses were mentioned as one of the categories one could be tested on (with tasks such as making right and left turns without dewiring............), so the DVLA certainly knew what they were. That was only seven years after the last trolleybus ran on a public road in the UK (in Bradford) but I wonder if anyone is still qualified to drive one (and if not, how one would organise instruction and/or driving tests should such beasts ever make a comeback)
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 1, 2020 22:02:15 GMT
The Category M (Trolley Vehicles) driving licence still exists, I suspect the only holders are those involved in museums where they still operate.
The DVSA is still prepared to perform the more unusual driving licence category tests, the other year my brother and I took our Cat G (road roller) test. Apparently there was some competition between the examiners as to who would perform the test as nobody at the centre had ever done one!
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Post by johnlinford on Sept 1, 2020 22:04:46 GMT
It surprises me a little that they can competently test you on something with no experience of it - certainly goes against most workplace training regimes?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 1, 2020 23:32:47 GMT
The Category M (Trolley Vehicles) driving licence still exists, I suspect the only holders are those involved in museums where they still operate. You don't need a DVSA licence to drive a trolleybus (or any other vehicle} on private land, so I doubt many staff at Sandtoft (or the other two sites which have working trolleybus infrastructure) have them.
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Antje
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Post by Antje on Sept 2, 2020 4:48:01 GMT
Which will open first? Elizabeth Line or Berlin Brandenburg Airport. In another attempt to get this back on topic, the Berlin Brandenburg Airport will 100% beat Crossrail: they finally have the operating licence and will open on 31 October 2020, replacing Tegel.
In any case, I do not trust any recent opening date forecasts because the situation now is too fluid to make the call.
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Post by countryman on Sept 2, 2020 7:03:00 GMT
Which will open first? Elizabeth Line or Berlin Brandenburg Airport. In another attempt to get this back on topic, the Berlin Brandenburg Airport will 100% beat Crossrail: they finally have the operating licence and will open on 31 October 2020, replacing Tegel.
In any case, I do not trust any recent opening date forecasts because the situation now is too fluid to make the call.
Thanks for that. We were going to Berlin in 2011, and when booked we wondered whether we would fly into Tegel and out from Brandenberg. 9 years late, I wonder how many years late the Elizabeth line will be. Hopefully less than 9. Brandenburg is opening in 'baby steps' so won't be fully operational for quite a while, perhaps you could look at the Elizabeth Line the same way and say that it has opened in baby steps as much of it bar the core section is already running. Or perhaps not.
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Post by grahamhewett on Sept 2, 2020 14:58:29 GMT
our side pointed out that there was no such animal, trolleybuses resting legally on set of highly specific local Acts, some Construction and Use regulations, and a quaint definition used by the Railway Inspectorate. Fresh legislation would be needed.... Curious, as I recall when I took my driving test in 1979 trolleybuses were mentioned as one of the categories one could be tested on (with tasks such as making right and left turns without dewiring............), so the DVLA certainly knew what they were. That was only seven years after the last trolleybus ran on a public road in the UK (in Bradford) but I wonder if anyone is still qualified to drive one (and if not, how one would organise instruction and/or driving tests should such beasts ever make a comeback) My late father who just qualified for a driving licence before the 1930 Road Traffic Act came into force, and therefore had never taken a driving test, was always amused that his licence enabled him to drive a trolley vehicle because, as you say and his post-1930 licence said, he could turn left and right without dewiring, despite never having been in a trolleybus cab... To mention having to negotiate the special work at Manor House didn't bear thinking about.
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Post by goldenarrow on Sept 2, 2020 20:21:45 GMT
The latest Crossrail project update is available here. In summary, the latest integrated forecast suggests a mid-2022 opening of the core with Bond Street omitted once again. Shifts in the forecasts have been attributed to lower than planned productivity in the handover of shafts/portals, the scale of assurance work involved in handing over core stations and Covid-19 safe working limits. The latest analysis suggests Crossrail could be up to £1.1bn above the financing package agreed in Dec 2018 (£450m more than the top end of the range in Nov 2019). Due to delays associated with Covid-19, Network Rail station enhancement works on TfL Rail West are now forecast to conclude in 2021.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 3, 2020 7:32:16 GMT
Apparently, TfL have booked a certain Mr. Godot as the inaugural passenger.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 3, 2020 18:20:08 GMT
It surprises me a little that they can competently test you on something with no experience of it - certainly goes against most workplace training regimes? In my case the examiner was simply looking for a safe drive. A technical advisor was on hand to point out features of the machine.
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 3, 2020 19:01:07 GMT
The latest Crossrail project update is available here. In summary, the latest integrated forecast suggests a mid-2022 opening of the core with Bond Street omitted once again. Shifts in the forecasts have been attributed to lower than planned productivity in the handover of shafts/portals, the scale of assurance work involved in handing over core stations and Covid-19 safe working limits. The latest analysis suggests Crossrail could be up to £1.1bn above the financing package agreed in Dec 2018 (£450m more than the top end of the range in Nov 2019). Due to delays associated with Covid-19, Network Rail station enhancement works on TfL Rail West are now forecast to conclude in 2021. Thanks for the update. I suppose that all quoted dates and projected costs remain subject to revision if something else unforseen occurs! Such as a Carrington Event (er um what else that has not already happened is left to cause a delay?)
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 4, 2020 7:12:37 GMT
I suppose that all quoted dates and projected costs remain subject to revision if something else unforseen occurs! Such as a Carrington Event (er um what else that has not already happened is left to cause a delay?) If a Carrington Event were to occur, I suspect XRail would be the least of our worries. Also, and sorry for being lazy and not trawling through the thread, but what is the particular problem with Bond Street?
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Post by goldenarrow on Sept 4, 2020 8:53:53 GMT
Also, and sorry for being lazy and not trawling through the thread, but what is the particular problem with Bond Street? Bond Street is still over 6 months behind the rest of the project due to delays incurred in the earlier tiers of the project rippling through and poor productivity drives that resulted in a contractor being shown the door. I suspect that the site has also been acutely impacted by socially distanced working given that it is still effectively a construction site whereas most other stations are scenario testing.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 5, 2020 11:22:15 GMT
Trolleybuses are certainly beyond the scope of this thread, and indeed the forum!
Let’s stick to Crossrail, thanks.
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