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Post by t697 on Jun 20, 2020 18:26:06 GMT
Would stepping back operation be out of the question to improve dwell at the platform? Perhaps, if one thinks it's hazardous for the train to depart while alighting crowds are still trekking down the platform.
I wonder how crowded the trains will be by then or whether Covid restrictions on usage will still be in force.
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Post by Chris L on Jun 20, 2020 19:18:53 GMT
Would stepping back operation be out of the question to improve dwell at the platform? Perhaps, if one thinks it's hazardous for the train to depart while alighting crowds are still trekking down the platform. I wonder how crowded the trains will be by then or whether Covid restrictions on usage will still be in force. A lot of people walk through the train in the morning peak rather than along the platform. One thought was to use the Crossrail platforms. This was ruled out at the time but might be possible given the area getting closer to completion. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Jun 20, 2020 19:32:35 GMT
Network Rail news June 17, 2020 "TfL works to lengthen platforms 16 and 17 at Liverpool Street will begin over the Christmas period to make more platforms available for the new, longer Elizabeth line trains; Network Rail works for the Crossrail programme will continue with station upgrades taking place at Ilford and Romford this autumn." Does Elizabeth line refer to the service and Crossrail refer to the infrastructure? See: www.networkrail.co.uk/news/major-improvement-work-to-be-rolled-out-across-anglias-rail-network/Like most PR information - what this actually means in relation to "work" at Liverpool Street may not become clear until much nearer the end of the year. Inherently something as minor as opening a tin of paint might constitute "work beginning" but there is nothing in that announcement that states that any existing platforms will be removed then or platform extensions will actually be completed then. However if, as seems likely, the core is not ready by Christmas, I suspect it may still be possible for Network Rail to carry out some useful preparatory work which the scheme will ultimately require, and thereby allow the platform extensions and track layout to be completed more rapidly once the core is open. For now, this announcement is really about flagging up to travellers, the potential for delays/disruption over the festive period. If nothing much actually happens at Liverpool Street then no great loss of face. However the media can be quite merciless about the railways when it comes to finding headlines on slow news days. Even with months of advance notice doubtless they will be able to find "angry travellers" complaining about "rail chaos" and of course complaining that "no one told us" despite the risk of disruption being listed on posters for months. |
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Post by jimbo on Jun 20, 2020 21:18:32 GMT
So from Christmas 2020 7-car trains will no longer be required on the Shenfield line, and 9-car trains can offer near 30% more accommodation, although who would want to be at the east end when arriving at Liverpool Street! That would part compensate for the reduced frequency. Maybe some trips could terminate in the Pudding Mill Lane tunnel mouth? However, if Crossrail opens mid-2021, that will only be the Abbey Wood branch, so this arrangement would have to continue through the year at least.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 20, 2020 23:41:56 GMT
One thought was to use the Crossrail platforms. This was ruled out at the time but might be possible given the area getting closer to completion. The track layout is not designed for terminating and reversing a large number of services at Liverpool Street Crossrail - carto.metro shows a facing crossover immediately west of Whitechapel and then nothing until a trailing crossover beneath Holborn. Assuming the signalling permits (I have no idea) turning some that way would be possible, but I'd be astounded if it was more than 4tph and 2tph seems more likely. For crowd management purposes you'd likely organise those services to be set down only at Liverpool Street, certainly at 1-2tph, which would work better in the morning peak than the evening. Would that amount of service add enough capacity to make up for that lost upstairs and would it be worth all the extra hassle? |
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Post by silenthunter on Jun 21, 2020 8:28:15 GMT
Would Whitechapel be an option?
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Post by goldenarrow on Jun 21, 2020 9:28:46 GMT
Would Whitechapel be an option? Track wise yes. Vallance Road Crossover (West of Whitechapel) is cleared for Unattended Train Operation and can complete such a move in around 2 mins. But in operational terms, I’m very sceptical of this being even considered given Crossrail’s intention to maximise their access to the railway especially since they are now playing catch up. Even just using the platforms at peak hours would take six hours of possession time away which does add up. My personal prediction is that TfL Rail will either cut their losses whatever they may be and/or implement a stepping back procedure perhaps augmenting that with allocating departure platforms earlier (similar to SWR at Waterloo) enabling passengers to spread down the platform before the service arrives. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 22, 2020 6:36:03 GMT
allocating departure platforms earlier enabling passengers to spread down the platform before the service arrives. (similar to SWR at Waterloo) If only that were true - unless there has been a change in practice since my commuting days ended last year, SWR (and SWT before them) announce the platform just as the train is arriving, (which with a 5 minute turnround, isn't very long before departure) leading to a scrum at the barrier between arriving and departing passengers, overcrowding of the carriages nearest the barrier, (as people tend to dive into the first one they come to if the train is already in the platform), and congestion on the concourse. |
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Post by stapler on Jun 22, 2020 6:56:33 GMT
allocating departure platforms earlier enabling passengers to spread down the platform before the service arrives. (similar to SWR at Waterloo) If only that were true - unless there has been a change in practice since my commuting days ended last year, SWR (and SWT before them) announce the platform just as the train is arriving, (which with a 5 minute turnround, isn't very long before departure) leading to a scrum at the barrier between arriving and departing passengers, overcrowding of the carriages nearest the barrier, (as people tend to dive into the first one they come to if the train is already in the platform), and congestion on the concourse. They'll have to change this surely, as part of measures to reduce congestion on stations. It's done for maximum operator convenience and nil passenger convenience, anyway. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Jun 22, 2020 9:26:05 GMT
norbitonflyer , I'm not a SWR regular such as yourself so have no idea what the norm is/has been. But this year past I've taken a number of contra-flow journeys out of Waterloo and had a good 5 mins on the platform before the service rolls in. I agree it's not perfect, I always headed for the country end to avoid said scrum, but on TfL Rail East any kind of cut to service frequency even with longer trains is not going to be pretty.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 26, 2020 12:07:10 GMT
Dynamic testing has restarted:
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Post by goldenarrow on Jun 26, 2020 12:11:19 GMT
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Post by alpinejohn on Jun 26, 2020 16:20:15 GMT
... and the same website reported in another article that the project only achieved 30% of planned progress last February which does not inspire much confidence in the latest "2021 sometime" opening of the core. At that stage I don't think that even COVID would have been a factor in that outcome, so perhaps a complete change of team is the only sensible reaction, as so far just throwing more money at the problem does not seem to work.
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Post by Chris L on Jun 26, 2020 17:17:03 GMT
First Class 345 train has run into Plumstead sidings.
Essential location for the initial Abbey Wood - Paddington service.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 15, 2020 7:18:48 GMT
"CRL is working with its contractors to gradually increase the number of staff on sites to complete the outstanding construction and assurance activities. These efforts will be supported by a blockade lasting approximately five weeks across tunnels, track, shafts and portals that will allow for exclusive 24/7 access to the central tunnel section for construction and testing workers. This work will begin in August 2020 and CRL will engage in advance with the local communities and stakeholders." (Programmes and Investment Committee 20 July 2020 Crossrail Update)
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 23, 2020 18:14:58 GMT
ianvisits Reporting that Crossrail will now miss the Summer 2021 opening window. Article here. Crossrail Ltd statement in full here.
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Post by holborncentral on Jul 23, 2020 19:39:17 GMT
I've just read it. Starting to wonder if it'll ever open now
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Post by silenthunter on Jul 23, 2020 21:25:12 GMT
It'll likely still open, but I imagine that a lot of the demand that they'd expected will no longer be there - some degree of increased homeworking is going to be the norm going forward.
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Post by ted672 on Jul 24, 2020 10:33:14 GMT
It'll likely still open, but I imagine that a lot of the demand that they'd expected will no longer be there - some degree of increased homeworking is going to be the norm going forward. In some ways that may be a blessing in disguise as it will allow any remaining bugs to be worked out of the system without being under crush load conditions from the outset, which is what I was expecting, especially eastwards from Stratford. As it is, I'll never use the completed Elizabeth line in my working life! |
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 24, 2020 11:08:02 GMT
The initial opening dates where pointless, it bore no resemblance to what was actually happening on the ground and was a concession to political forces more than anything else. In an ideal world the project should have been given the freedom to announce an opening date at around the area of completion the project is at now, but of course the world of rail infrastructure projects in this country is anything but ideal.
Looking forwards, it's becoming clearer that there are going to be long-term shifts in demand manifesting themselves across all modes of transport. But that still doesn't undermine the reasons why Crossrail is needed. I think of it as a currently underutilized insurance policy for growth that will return one day even if the drivers of that growth are different from those of today.
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Post by t697 on Jul 24, 2020 11:43:23 GMT
If and when Crossrail ever opens and runs reliably in the Central Area, its presence might allow new ways to plan engineering work and renewals on some Tube routes. One might be able consider full Closures or blockades of say parts of the Central or north of Circle for more time and cost efficient works.
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Post by alpinejohn on Jul 24, 2020 14:28:13 GMT
I've just read it. Starting to wonder if it'll ever open now Sadly your thoughts appear increasingly justified. There does seem to be a disconnect between groups of people seemingly left to their own devices to tinker away on their own little bit of this admitted huge project with virtually no financial penalties/incentives to complete and handover stuff so they can ever get the whole line open. It really makes me wonder what immense amount of work has been discovered to justify the proposed 5 week "possession" on a section of line which has not yet even opened for revenue earning traffic. Cart and horse springs to mind.. It seems extraordinary that whatever really lies is behind this "possession" was not spotted years before - in the project planning stage, so that it could all have been completed during the many many months since the core tunnelling works were completed. One wonders whether anyone was officially responsible for Overall Project Management to ensure it was delivered in a timely fashion. Why do I get the feeling that someone in charge of this project should have been invited to seek alternative employment and definitely not awarded a "performance" bonus. As for Network Rail suddenly discovering their long delayed upgrades to stations outside of the core were going to need masses more money, is yet another wonderful example of their competence to organise the proverbial. Any bets on whether the physical CrossRail tunnelling time will prove far less than the time taken to get this hapless line fully open? |
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Post by Chris M on Jul 24, 2020 14:53:07 GMT
It seems extraordinary that whatever really lies is behind this "possession" was not spotted years before - in the project planning stage, so that it could all have been completed during the many many months since the core tunnelling works were completed. The unforseen thing "really" lies behind the need for this possession is a global pandemic and associated lockdown and mandated changes to working methods. When you can show many any major project that foresaw that coming then I will regard your comments above as fair and proportionate. |
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Post by Chris L on Jul 24, 2020 15:06:02 GMT
Last year the main station contractors on the core section were told to submit their best and final costs to complete.
No more money could be claimed and work was proceeding until the safe shutdown.
It should be remembered that the standards and material specifications for the project were produced many years ago. Many have been superseded and in some cases the suppliers no longer exist. Some work has needed to be re-done as a result.
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Post by davidr1986 on Jul 25, 2020 3:46:56 GMT
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Post by billbedford on Jul 25, 2020 10:47:51 GMT
It really makes me wonder what immense amount of work has been discovered to justify the proposed 5 week "possession" on a section of line which has not yet even opened for revenue earning traffic. Cart and horse springs to mind.. It seems extraordinary that whatever really lies is behind this "possession" was not spotted years before - in the project planning stage, so that it could all have been completed during the many many months since the core tunnelling works were completed. Isn't the problem that all the 9-car sets have been withdrawn for a software update, so they have no actual trains to run the tests with? |
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Post by Chris L on Jul 25, 2020 15:18:57 GMT
It really makes me wonder what immense amount of work has been discovered to justify the proposed 5 week "possession" on a section of line which has not yet even opened for revenue earning traffic. Cart and horse springs to mind.. It seems extraordinary that whatever really lies is behind this "possession" was not spotted years before - in the project planning stage, so that it could all have been completed during the many many months since the core tunnelling works were completed. Isn't the problem that all the 9-car sets have been withdrawn for a software update, so they have no actual trains to run the tests with? They need to test all the systems together. This includes ventilation, smoke detection, fire protection systems etc. The back of house rooms on the stations are way in excess of all current premises. The lifts and escalators all need to undergo test running. This couldn't have done before everything is completed and accepted by the client. 7 car trains have been used in the tunnels. |
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Post by silenthunter on Jul 25, 2020 15:23:15 GMT
The 'possession' is preventing any train testing at all so they can finish off the construction works and station testing.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 25, 2020 20:22:41 GMT
This is conservative financial planning. The actual line opening can be earlier whenever possible. However, if the core section does not open until late 2021, then the sections linking to Network Rail can only be linked through with major timetable changes. This would be Spring 2022 to the east and late 2022 to the west in the 2022-23 financial year. So the first full year of revenue from the complete line will be 2023-24. How will TfL Rail operate Shenfield services from Christmas 2020 to Spring 2022 with only two platforms at Liverpool Street (high level)? Refer: districtdavesforum.co.uk/post/492967/thread |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 7, 2020 12:19:48 GMT
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