Class 710 Delivery / Entry to Service

I doubt a pantograph could be fitted without a major rebuild of the body, and in particular the roof, which would rather miss the point of re-using them. However, a battery version of the 230 is in development.

And yes, they are late - the prototype was originally supposed to be used in passenger service on the Nuneaton-Coventry route in early 2017, more than two years ago. Compare that with the (so-far) 11-month delay on the 710s.

An LT Museum Friends visit to VivaRail in February 2018 revealed that they were looking at precisely this concept and drawings were shown of how the pantograph well would look.

Don't hold your breath. They are just the standard WTT paths that they haven't got round to cancelling yet, not any sort of additional run.

Same, for not holding my breath. But are they really the regular timetable paths, as they're loaded in as 'VAR' and as from Upper Holloway to Barking at the start of day? Neither are what the normal timetable say.

... and Realtimetrains is showing a currently-normal (30 minute) Sunday service now on Sunday afternoon.

Indeed and that's why I hedged my original post with "possibly" etc. Sorry if anyone was misled as I posted in good faith having double checked the online info.



Yep - there are 4 return workings scheduled on weekdays. That was most likely the second trip out of Barking today.

Like any commercial organisation, it will only do so if it the customer's wants are realistic and Vivarail can make money at it. If a customer wanted a 200mph version of the D-Train (for example) I would expect Vivarail to decline to quote, or at least suggest a more suitable vehicle to upcycle.

So this year, the May National Rail timetable change is due on 18 May.

Is it just wishful thinking that after spending about half a billion pounds on Class 710 trains, and noting they seem to have finally received some sort of ORR caveated approval to carry passengers, then perhaps it would be nice if Arriva Rail London uses the Timetable change to deliver a full service with the new trains on Goblin in ten days time?

I rather fear the Class 378 fix has removed a lot of the pressure on Bombardier to sort out their software mess let alone other understandable ORR concerns.

As a result we could possibly be waiting until the December timetable update before we actually see 710s in squadron passenger carrying service rather than a handful of 710s shuttling along Goblin. This has knock on consequences for other Overground services, which should have been reinforced by 378s being redeployed after 710s take over the Watford Junction-Euston route. I understand that ORR has explicitly not approved the use of 710s in passenger service on third rail routes - which rather scuppers that plan for now, and probably makes the December Timetable changeover the only real deadline against which TFL can now bash Bombardier to get these trains sorted out rather than clogging up sidings all over place.

I don't see any sort of squadron service on the GOBLIN any time soon. I certainly don't see it in time for the timetable change. A few more weeks are needed and we might see some peak time infills. Having seen a e/b 378 approaching Blackhorse Rd (BHO) this evening at 1700 or so it was well loaded and there are always large crowds waiting at BHO. Peak time relief is needed.

I don't agree the 378 "fix" has removed pressure from Bombardier. They have to make Aventra work as a product. They have hundreds of the things on order. That is a massive commercial imperative given they don't want to be forking out compensation on every contract. The point is it is a generational change in how trains are designed and made. Now OK Bombardier have undoubtedly badly misjudged how long it would take to get them in to a working state. The pressures for delivery on Crossrail can't be helping either. I don't think anyone was shocked with a conditional ORR consent to operate. Given barely any testing has been on DC tracks on NR metals there isn't the data to present to ORR to demonstrate compliance.

The use of the 378s is a sticking plaster that can come "undone" at any point. In fact we've seen how fragile the service is when units fail - you very rapidly have no GOBLIN service at all. I suspect everyone wants to move away from their use as soon as possible but only when the 710s are running OK and in sufficient number.

I agree there are knock on consequences but once they can start putting 710s into service on the GOBLIN I would expect to see a fairly quick move to build up testing on West Anglia metals and also on DC tracks. The aim must be to get the third rail / "working in multiple" for passenger service conditions removed as quickly as can be sensibly achieved. Given there are no service enhancements on West Anglia it will simply be a driver training task initially and doing "multiple unit" testing. The only problem for TfL / Arriva is that the interworking on West Anglia makes it difficult to put 710s into squadron service without "multiple unit" capability. I guess they could run a few single units at weekends to begin with. I don't see any deliberate delay with 710 deplyment until timetable switchovers. The aim has to be to get trains into service quickly provided reliability builds. That's the next potential "showstopper" - how often do the trains fail once passengers are let loose on them and doors etc all start getting used properly (or improperly)?

I suspect timetable enhancements are out for this year. May 2020 is probably the earliest that something can be done with NLL/ELL/WLL. Sadly it looks like the Watford DC timetable moves to a ludicrous 15/15/30 headway in 10 days time.

A little update of things I've noticed or been told about / read.

- from today there are a couple of extra peak time empty stock workings with class 710s. This use the normal bay platforms at Barking and Gospel Oak. Looking at the timing it is possible these are runs that could be livened up for passenger use in the near future. They're timed to cover busy times in the AM and PM peak. Fewer of the test runs are now accompanied by a "rescue" loco. Barring issues related to planned possessions there has been a reasonable volume of test runs on the GOBLIN in daylight hours plus some overnight trips on the WCML.

And now more speculative stuff.

- an informed source on another forum has said that class 710 passenger operation on the GOBLIN is imminent with the 378s likely to disappear relatively soon.
- a reasonable volume of drivers have now been trained up with more to come.
- trains are now on version 33 of the software.

I have yet to see anything that says the trains have been formally accepted by Arriva Rail London but I assume that has to happen before passengers can use the trains. So some positive signs or hints.

Thank you for the clarification. I was clear I was speculating as I had info from one source and it was unverifiable hence my caution. Looks like I was right to be cautious.

But does that saving take into account the lost revenue, (including the promised free travel) the cost of replacement buses, the conversion of three 378s to 4-car and the cost of running them (including the lack of maintenance cover, and the suspension of the refurbishment programme)

Is there a connection between the proposed interim timetable for the dc lines ( of 12, 18, and 30 minute intervals! ) and the need for testing 710s on the dc lines?
Possibly utilising a slot during the 30 minute interval?

The interval pattern is possibly suggestive of a 12, 18, 12, 18 interval service when four tph service is introduced?

(( In the meantime I feel that introducing this somewhat ludicrous 'service' might more appropriately have been initiated on April the First. ))