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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 13:57:47 GMT
Hi all, this is my first post here. I read the BGORUG news section, where the group claim that the train delivery is going to suffer delay. As I booked a trip to London in late May, somewhat specifically to try the new trains, this is quite a devastating news to me. Do you think that the group's claim to be true, and if yes, when do you expect the new trains will arrive? |
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Post by domh245 on Apr 21, 2018 14:13:01 GMT
Hi, welcome to the forum. Unfortunately I'd agree with the BGORUG that the new trains are going to be delayed. Seeing as it's almost May already (time flies!) and we haven't even seen one delivered to London, the odds of them running a train in service during May, even on the 31st of May, are slim. It's difficult to guess when they are actually going to be delivered, seeing as there hasn't been much in the way of news, but going by the delays to the class 345 entry into service, it could be late June (the 345s were supposed to enter service in May 17 and eventually did on the 22 June), but that would be very optimistic in my opinion.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 21, 2018 18:22:51 GMT
Hi, welcome to the forum. Unfortunately I'd agree with the BGORUG that the new trains are going to be delayed. Seeing as it's almost May already (time flies!) and we haven't even seen one delivered to London, the odds of them running a train in service during May, even on the 31st of May, are slim. It's difficult to guess when they are actually going to be delivered, seeing as there hasn't been much in the way of news, but going by the delays to the class 345 entry into service, it could be late June (the 345s were supposed to enter service in May 17 and eventually did on the 22 June), but that would be very optimistic in my opinion. Worth bearing in mind that purdah (for the local council elections) will limit what emerges from TfL until the second week of May. Also the London Assembly has no meetings at present so the scope for news, good or bad, is extremely limited. I do agree, though, that the lack of any news about the class 710s' progress suggests that things are not where they should be. There may be a small upside if it means the trains can be "debugged" at Derby (using experience from the 345s) prior to delivery. It is all a tad ironic given the delays to the wiring and yet it's sitting there ready but there are no trains! Remember TfL fuming 7 months ago that they'd have new trains but no wires to run them under!  |
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Post by jukes on Apr 21, 2018 21:59:05 GMT
Hi, welcome to the forum. Unfortunately I'd agree with the BGORUG that the new trains are going to be delayed. Seeing as it's almost May already (time flies!) and we haven't even seen one delivered to London, the odds of them running a train in service during May, even on the 31st of May, are slim. It's difficult to guess when they are actually going to be delivered, seeing as there hasn't been much in the way of news, but going by the delays to the class 345 entry into service, it could be late June (the 345s were supposed to enter service in May 17 and eventually did on the 22 June), but that would be very optimistic in my opinion. Worth bearing in mind that purdah (for the local council elections) will limit what emerges from TfL until the second week of May. Also the London Assembly has no meetings at present so the scope for news, good or bad, is extremely limited. I do agree, though, that the lack of any news about the class 710s' progress suggests that things are not where they should be. There may be a small upside if it means the trains can be "debugged" at Derby (using experience from the 345s) prior to delivery. It is all a tad ironic given the delays to the wiring and yet it's sitting there ready but there are no trains! Remember TfL fuming 7 months ago that they'd have new trains but no wires to run them under! Bombardier have completed all 14 Dual-Voltage 710s and the first 3 AC only versions, with another 2 almost complete as at this date. The problem is finding available slots on test tracks; thats the problem, not production which is going well. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Apr 22, 2018 8:42:42 GMT
That observation is no great surprise, indeed the risk of a testing stage log jam has been recognised by manufacturers and a recent article in Rail Magazine suggests plans are afoot to provide a new test facility at Long Marston. Unfortunately for GOBLIN it will not be online soon enough to help with the 710 testing. This log jam is sort of inevitable given the feast and famine order profile which seems endemic in the UK. Rail Magazine Article |
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Post by snoggle on Apr 22, 2018 11:54:50 GMT
Bombardier have completed all 14 Dual-Voltage 710s and the first 3 AC only versions, with another 2 almost complete as at this date. The problem is finding available slots on test tracks; thats the problem, not production which is going well. I only saw the "completed trains" number after I had posted my comment. Your response is perfectly fair given the testing backlog. I appreciate I run the risk of straddling different threads here but have the class 345s settled down reliability wise? Have issues like the door design been resolved? I assume there is a high degree of commonality between the 345s and 710s in terms of physical build and software and it was the latter that is / was (?) the bigger problem on the 345s. When I referred to "debugged" it was in the hope that if the 345's software is stable then the relevant aspects would be reflected in the 710s under test and also in build before delivery. If the type testing on the 710s is proceeding satisfactorily then the French testing should be ending soon - it was scheduled for 8 weeks and the train arrived in late Feb. Of course the next issue is the rate at which Arriva London Rail can accept 710s and store them. I doubt it has the ability to take 14 trains in short order given the need for route / clearance testing and then driver training plus fault free mileage accumulation. It will be interesting to see just how quickly the 710s do arrive in London and enter service. Perhaps we will get a quick changeover on the GOBLIN? Probably time for some photography of the 172s and 315s before they disappear. |
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 22, 2018 12:13:40 GMT
If you take the parallels with the 345 introduction there will be issues that will only be identified once driver training is happening.
One example from the 345 programme was that station lighting was too yellow and caused problems for drivers looking at the cab monitors. A lot of lamps had to be changed.
This caused delays with entering service but they appear to be running well now and are to be seen on a regular basis.
Hopefully the 710s will have less problems.
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Post by domh245 on Apr 22, 2018 12:24:33 GMT
Bombardier have completed all 14 Dual-Voltage 710s and the first 3 AC only versions, with another 2 almost complete as at this date. The problem is finding available slots on test tracks; thats the problem, not production which is going well. I only saw the "completed trains" number after I had posted my comment. Your response is perfectly fair given the testing backlog. I appreciate I run the risk of straddling different threads here but have the class 345s settled down reliability wise? Have issues like the door design been resolved? I assume there is a high degree of commonality between the 345s and 710s in terms of physical build and software and it was the latter that is / was (?) the bigger problem on the 345s. When I referred to "debugged" it was in the hope that if the 345's software is stable then the relevant aspects would be reflected in the 710s under test and also in build before delivery. If the type testing on the 710s is proceeding satisfactorily then the French testing should be ending soon - it was scheduled for 8 weeks and the train arrived in late Feb. Of course the next issue is the rate at which Arriva London Rail can accept 710s and store them. I doubt it has the ability to take 14 trains in short order given the need for route / clearance testing and then driver training plus fault free mileage accumulation. It will be interesting to see just how quickly the 710s do arrive in London and enter service. Perhaps we will get a quick changeover on the GOBLIN? Probably time for some photography of the 172s and 315s before they disappear. Thinking out loud, but I don't think there will be all that much software commonality between the 710s and the 345s beyond a very basic level. The 345s have got to work with 3 different safety systems vs the 710s 1, their DOO setup is different, and AIUI those were the main software issues with the 345s (beyond a slightly buggy PIS but that isn't critical to running the train), so in many respects the 710s should be easier! However, it is also worth looking to the recently introduced 707s, which were near identical to the 700s in all but paint, toilet, length, and installed power, and their introduction was substantially delayed by software issues, so commonality can't be taken as proof that it'll work out of the box. Your last paragraph raises some good points as well - I would hope that ARL are in a position where they can accept units (or at least stable them) as they were originally scheduled in the concession agreement. Getting everyone trained on them will be a challenge, although I would expect that the fault free mileage accumulation will be handled externally and may well be racked up away from London. As for your final point, I don't think there should be any real rush to get photos of them, indeed you might even get another chance to photograph them in the snow! Whether that is because they'll still be around next February, or because at this rate we'll have snow in August, I'll leave you to decide! |
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Post by dazz285 on Apr 22, 2018 14:41:33 GMT
At the moment roads, 7 & 8 at Willesden Tmd are still not wired so space will be an issue.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 22, 2018 16:07:42 GMT
I only saw the "completed trains" number after I had posted my comment. Your response is perfectly fair given the testing backlog. I appreciate I run the risk of straddling different threads here but have the class 345s settled down reliability wise? Have issues like the door design been resolved? I assume there is a high degree of commonality between the 345s and 710s in terms of physical build and software and it was the latter that is / was (?) the bigger problem on the 345s. When I referred to "debugged" it was in the hope that if the 345's software is stable then the relevant aspects would be reflected in the 710s under test and also in build before delivery. If the type testing on the 710s is proceeding satisfactorily then the French testing should be ending soon - it was scheduled for 8 weeks and the train arrived in late Feb. Of course the next issue is the rate at which Arriva London Rail can accept 710s and store them. I doubt it has the ability to take 14 trains in short order given the need for route / clearance testing and then driver training plus fault free mileage accumulation. It will be interesting to see just how quickly the 710s do arrive in London and enter service. Perhaps we will get a quick changeover on the GOBLIN? Probably time for some photography of the 172s and 315s before they disappear. Thinking out loud, but I don't think there will be all that much software commonality between the 710s and the 345s beyond a very basic level. The 345s have got to work with 3 different safety systems vs the 710s 1, their DOO setup is different, and AIUI those were the main software issues with the 345s (beyond a slightly buggy PIS but that isn't critical to running the train), so in many respects the 710s should be easier! However, it is also worth looking to the recently introduced 707s, which were near identical to the 700s in all but paint, toilet, length, and installed power, and their introduction was substantially delayed by software issues, so commonality can't be taken as proof that it'll work out of the box. Your last paragraph raises some good points as well - I would hope that ARL are in a position where they can accept units (or at least stable them) as they were originally scheduled in the concession agreement. Getting everyone trained on them will be a challenge, although I would expect that the fault free mileage accumulation will be handled externally and may well be racked up away from London. As for your final point, I don't think there should be any real rush to get photos of them, indeed you might even get another chance to photograph them in the snow! Whether that is because they'll still be around next February, or because at this rate we'll have snow in August, I'll leave you to decide! Not quite so simple. Some are dual voltage. |
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Post by fleetline on May 2, 2018 0:00:47 GMT
The 710 are being delayed due to a software issue that's now delaying the 720 for Greater Anglia. The 345 aren't affected as they use a different software. This in turn has lead to more testing required which is limited at best wig the amount of orders coming through.
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Post by snoggle on May 19, 2018 12:49:03 GMT
A recent update from the Barking Gospel Oak user group. Disappointing to say the least. Note also the timetable issue - the published timetable on the TfL website does not reflect the timetable that will actually apply i.e. with the peak trains reinstated! (Rolls Eyes)
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Post by dazz285 on May 25, 2018 15:35:18 GMT
23 units are currently built and will remain in Derby for the foreseeable future with a
slowdown in production to avoid stabling issues
22nd Oct is now the new date being talked about for passenger service on the Gobs
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jun 2, 2018 12:13:07 GMT
I wonder how long it will take to train the drivers on the Class 710s?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2018 16:50:53 GMT
A 710 (is it the first?) is due in London mid to late June.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 2, 2018 19:51:18 GMT
A 710 (is it the first?) is due in London mid to late June. I'll order some bunting.  Wonder if we will get a fanfare from TfL or if it will be kept moderately quiet given the delays and to avoid stoking public expectations. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 2, 2018 22:07:26 GMT
You mean like ATO on the Hammersmith branch?
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Post by domh245 on Jun 12, 2018 21:53:54 GMT
A couple of developments I've seen posted elsewhere: 1) The unit which went to France has now returned to Derby 2) There is some sort of press event/unveiling at Willesden on Thursday (although I've not heard about any units moving, nor are have any paths appeared in RealTimeTrains) 3) Renderings of the interior have appeared, featuring a new, darker (and greener) Moquette, along with confirmation that the base PIS used in these units will be the same as those on the Crossrail 345s |
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 13, 2018 5:37:59 GMT
The first unit has been delivered to London: Click here if embedded tweet fails to display. |
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Jun 13, 2018 6:37:53 GMT
God I hope Emma doesn't sound as depressed on the 710s as she does on the 345s!
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Post by A60stock on Jun 13, 2018 8:48:26 GMT
I would have thought the announcements will be the same as those on the 378s
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Post by routew15 on Jun 13, 2018 18:25:32 GMT
Any technical questions happy to answer.(Or try to find the answer) Also all 710 Chevron style stop car markers have been installed aswell as all baliase beacons on the tracks for the CSDE/SDO. Also chingford has a new train inspection walkway and Bombardier AVIS (automatic vehicle inspection system) structure completed. Do you know which stations will require SDO? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 18:34:40 GMT
I would have thought the announcements will be the same as those on the 378s It will probably be like on the 345s since the full colour LCD screens are best only showing a few, bold words at once rather than a long scrolling sentence. Honestly, either way you either get too short an announcement if it's like the 345s or an excessively long announcement if it's like the 378s. I saw a tweet that was of an interior mock up of the 710s (a physical mock up, not the earlier mentioned computer model) but it was taken down. I have to say, it didn't look that great and if I remember, the moquette looked worse with its slightly adapted colours. That or because there's no gap between seats, the pattern seemed to continue along one long bench. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jun 13, 2018 21:58:59 GMT
Perhaps an improvement would be a pictogram pointing to the side of the train the doors will open at the next station. Possibly just an arrow pointing to one side of the train, or possibly an animation of a pair of sliding doors opening with an arrow. Ideally this should be on the 345's too, plus the 700's, S stock, etc. The image below shows this being done on the Berlin S-Bahn. Filmed in 2005.
Simon
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 22:06:38 GMT
Honestly I'd love that. I don't think it should just be the Jubilee and Victoria lines, it should be on everything. If I remember, on the mock up of the 707 that was on display at Waterloo last year or earlier, the small screen on Siemens LCD displays were used to show what side the doors would open but that never came around to being a thing. It's not difficult, the second time the 345 announces 'next station's as the train is pulling into the platform to simply add 'doors will open on the...'. And as im guessing the 710s will have the same announcements, this could happen on there too.
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Post by A60stock on Jun 13, 2018 22:42:23 GMT
i too find it odd that stock like 96 stock had this added, yet the much newer s stock does not have this feature.
One guess for me is that these lines have many stations where doors could open on either side, whereas on the victoria and jubilee, its only really the terminal stations and north greenwich where this could happen.
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Post by MoreToJack on Jun 13, 2018 22:58:14 GMT
i too find it odd that stock like 96 stock had this added, yet the much newer s stock does not have this feature. One guess for me is that these lines have many stations where doors could open on either side, whereas on the victoria and jubilee, its only really the terminal stations and north greenwich where this could happen. Correct. The door information is solely within the CIS and has no link to the signalling - as it should be - meaning that there is no way of knowing platform working. You will notice that door information is not provided on the Jubilee and Victoria lines where multiple platforms are available. |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 14, 2018 0:16:42 GMT
i too find it odd that stock like 96 stock had this added, yet the much newer s stock does not have this feature. One guess for me is that these lines have many stations where doors could open on either side, whereas on the victoria and jubilee, its only really the terminal stations and north greenwich where this could happen. I may be misunderstanding the question but the Vic Line has mixed platform locations - some to the left, some to the right and the displays / announcements make the distinction. The Jubilee also has a mix with side platforms at the north end but most of the route is island platforms. |
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Post by Chris M on Jun 14, 2018 1:18:54 GMT
i too find it odd that stock like 96 stock had this added, yet the much newer s stock does not have this feature. One guess for me is that these lines have many stations where doors could open on either side, whereas on the victoria and jubilee, its only really the terminal stations and north greenwich where this could happen. I may be misunderstanding the question but the Vic Line has mixed platform locations - some to the left, some to the right and the displays / announcements make the distinction. The Jubilee also has a mix with side platforms at the north end but most of the route is island platforms. I think the distinction is between stations where a train always opens its doors on one side vs stations where it can be on either side. For example on the Jubilee line an eastbound train will always open its doors on the right hand side at Canary Wharf, but at North Greenwich it depends which platform the train is routed in to whether the doors open on the left or the right. The door information is solely within the CIS and has no link to the signalling - as it should be - meaning that there is no way of knowing platform working. When you say "as it should be" do you mean that the current situation is the correct set-up or that have a (presumably read-only) link from the signalling system would be better? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2018 15:46:30 GMT
Noticed in the video on the last page that there are only 4 cars (unless I really can't count). Why only 4 cars when they went though the effort of buying extra cars before ?
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