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Post by jimbo on May 31, 2023 4:00:56 GMT
So 12 trains are complete, whilst the first train has just commenced trials in London. I can't help remembering that the two pre-production Victoria Line trains were eventually scrapped after the production trains incorporated countless modifications in the light of the trials, so it was cheaper to build two new trains than to modify the original two. Anyone seen the second DLR new train? What number is it?
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Post by jimbo on Jun 3, 2023 5:32:28 GMT
That is by the end of March.
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Post by thinlizzy on Jun 5, 2023 18:07:40 GMT
So 12 trains are complete, whilst the first train has just commenced trials in London. I can't help remembering that the two pre-production Victoria Line trains were eventually scrapped after the production trains incorporated countless modifications in the light of the trials, so it was cheaper to build two new trains than to modify the original two. Anyone seen the second DLR new train? What number is it? Second train is vehicle 203, last I saw it was in the maintenance sheds at Beckton
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 27, 2023 12:15:20 GMT
Train 201 used during 24 hour partial-closure of the DLR to successfully complete ASC Automatic Speed Control testing of the new B23 train under signalling control at full line-speed. As per our previous closures, testing the B23 new trains VOBC Vehicle On-Board Controller and its integration with the DLR network when under full signal control.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 30, 2023 10:44:23 GMT
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Post by brigham on Jul 1, 2023 7:24:11 GMT
Excellent news. I'm all for this levelling-up. Hoping to see them on the Durham Coast route soon...
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Post by jimbo on Jul 1, 2023 21:07:36 GMT
London is the region of England with the highest poverty rates, and the child poverty rate is 38%. In-work poverty rates are also particularly high in London, with more than one in five working households living in poverty. Despite this, London has been allocated only 4% of the Levelling Up Fund awarded in the Comprehensive Spending Review (CSR). In London 95% of people live in areas which exceed the World Health Organization (WHO) guideline NO 2 limit by at least 50%. source
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 2, 2023 0:11:25 GMT
Excellent news. I'm all for this levelling-up. Hoping to see them on the Durham Coast route soon... Infrastructure and public transport investment is not zero-sum. The reason the north has not got enough investment over many years is because governments have not invested in it, not because they've invested money in other regions - indeed they've almost universally under invested there as well. Demand politicians give you what you need, do not complain about others getting what they need.
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Post by brigham on Jul 4, 2023 8:01:29 GMT
I think the Monty-Python style 'Department for Levelling-Up' tells us all we need to know anyway.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 7, 2023 20:17:30 GMT
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Post by ijmad on Jul 21, 2023 10:40:08 GMT
It's interesting to compare these trains to the 2024TS 'New Tube for London'. Both of them have even/odd cars with different door spacing (are 3 door and 2 door B23 cars also different lengths?). Innovative designs for sure though I do wonder if it might cause problems in future, I know PEDs are not something anyone's talking about for the DLR, but maybe CCTV placement, SDO, and so on might result in this configuration being 'locked in' for future stock procurement too, driving up price?
Or am I just imagining a problem that doesn't exist...
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Post by t697 on Jul 21, 2023 20:38:32 GMT
The doors have to be somewhere! I am informed that SDO and OPO CCTV have been carefully thought through for both these rolling stocks. Fitting of PEDs does give any operator an issue when the time comes later for the next stock renewal. But I guess London's first experience of this will be when the Jubilee fleet renewal comes around. I seem to recall an old thread speculating how that will go...
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Post by jimbo on Jul 21, 2023 21:24:45 GMT
The Picc train will have short and long cars alternating, but the doors are evenly spaced along the train to share loadings and speed station dwell times. It has been suggested above that the end cars of the DLR train have less doors to deal with any short platforms. The new DLR cars seem to be of similar lengths. There has been no explanation for having less doorways in the middle of the train!
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Post by burkitt on Jul 22, 2023 10:05:54 GMT
The doors on the 24TS are close to evenly spaced, but not quite. They are 5184mm centre-to-centre between pairs on any one car, and 6774mm centre-to-centre between adjacent pairs across two cars. I'd say this is fairly close to optimal and suitable for PEDs to lock in.
On the DLR B23 trains, various carriage length / bogie placement / articulation options were considered by both the unsuccessful bidders and CAF. The 2-3-2-3-2 door distribution maintains the same number of doors as on the existing fleet on the chosen five car format. I'd consider it unfortunate if PEDs locked in this carriage format and door distribution, which seems very much chosen to minimise fleet purchase cost above all else, preventing other options being used in future fleets.
Regarding Jubilee 96TS and PED replacement, I believe the approach considered most effective to enable gradual transition without a long term closure of the extension is to first install new PEDs which keep the current door locations, but with wide double doors where the pairs of single doors are now. New trains with suitably aligned double doors could then be introduced gradually. However assuming two double doors per car, this would mean ten cars in total, which being an even number isn't compatible with the 24TS architecture of bogies on odd-numbered cars only, so some variant on the bogie placement would be required.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 22, 2023 20:36:26 GMT
10-car trains for the Jubilee sounds right since the Central is promised 11-cars, although the Jubilee platforms were built for the same length. But the Waterloo & City is promised 5-car trains, so two of them coupled would suit the Jubilee. Of course, you wouldn't need the middle cabs. That would have 12 bogies compared to current trains having 14, so a weight saving. The Siemens design has unpowered outer bogies, so two 5-cars together would have 4 unpowered bogies with 8 powered, the same as the current Jubilee fleet. That might work!
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Post by burkitt on Jul 23, 2023 9:14:30 GMT
Having played about with some scale drawings, an 11 car 24TS would have reasonably closely matching door alignment to a 96TS - I think within the margin of what could be accommodated by replacement PEDs compatible with both stock. The outermost saloon doors on the end cars would sit slightly beyond where the cab doors are now and may require SDO, while the cab would be in the tunnel as will be common on the Piccadilly. A Central/W&C derived train with slightly shorter cars may align even better, but I don't know what their exact car lengths and door spacing will be. I fear we've drifted rather off topic though...
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Post by jimbo on Jul 23, 2023 21:03:45 GMT
This is a standard train design with regular door spacings, and will therefore be the same on the Central line, except the cab ends will be shortened a metre or so back towards the first doorway. Of course, a varied design could be ordered to fit the PEDs on the Jubilee if the money ever becomes available. It isn't for any but the Picccadilly trains at present.
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Post by jimbo on Sept 30, 2023 5:51:34 GMT
That's 19 trains to modify as necessary in light of ongoing testing of first two trains!
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Post by jimbo on Oct 12, 2023 20:05:14 GMT
TfL Commissioner’s report - October 2023. Nearly half way there! First two still on trial.
Where are the 23 trains in Europe now? Are they perhaps building up mileage on test without an attendant present?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 17, 2023 11:21:27 GMT
update 16/10:
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Post by thinlizzy on Oct 18, 2023 12:26:55 GMT
TfL Commissioner’s report - October 2023. Nearly half way there! First two still on trial. Where are the 23 trains in Europe now? Are they perhaps building up mileage on test without an attendant present? They are currently stored in Spain, mileage testing will be built up when they arrive in the UK. Only mileage they would have built up in Spain would be on the CAF test track
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Post by jimbo on Oct 29, 2023 19:31:35 GMT
At the end of May there were 12 trains completed (see above), and 25 now, so 13 built in 5 months. By the time the first train enters service in March 2024 they will have completed about 38 of the 54, with the total build finished around the end of the calendar year. I can't recall a previous build that got so far ahead of entry to service. That requires a lot of costly storage space. And hopefully the current testing doesn't reveal fixes required for the whole fleet! The 2009TS pre-production pair of trains were scrapped after testing since so many modifications were required for the fleet build that it was cheaper to start again!
The 'New tube for London stock' thread has been noting that the new Picc trains are likely to enter service one by one, displacing an old train each time, as has been normal practice. I wonder how this fleet is to enter service, given the number of trains already built. Will there be a large changeover at a bank holiday weekend closure, introducing a tranche of new trains? One a week would make little impression on the backlog, taking a year to complete.
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Post by ijmad on Nov 21, 2023 22:42:22 GMT
I can't recall a previous build that got so far ahead of entry to service. The Class 701s would like to make your acquaintance!
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Post by jimbo on Nov 29, 2023 19:24:11 GMT
..... The 'New tube for London stock' thread has been noting that the new Picc trains are likely to enter service one by one, displacing an old train each time, as has been normal practice. I wonder how this fleet is to enter service, given the number of trains already built. Will there be a large changeover at a bank holiday weekend closure, introducing a tranche of new trains? One a week would make little impression on the backlog, taking a year to complete. The first two trains were delivered to Beckton depot in January and February 2023, with the third train to be delivered in December 2023. The first new B23 train is due in passenger service by spring 2024, with a steady-state acceptance into passenger service of two trains per period following the first train. Scraping of old B92 trains commences following introduction of the new trains in 2024. link p.5 / 10
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Post by jimbo on Nov 29, 2023 20:11:01 GMT
At the end of May there were 12 trains completed (see above), and 25 now, so 13 built in 5 months. By the time the first train enters service in March 2024 they will have completed about 38 of the 54, with the total build finished around the end of the calendar year. I can't recall a previous build that got so far ahead of entry to service. That requires a lot of costly storage space. And hopefully the current testing doesn't reveal fixes required for the whole fleet! The 2009TS pre-production pair of trains were scrapped after testing since so many modifications were required for the fleet build that it was cheaper to start again! ..... Some doubt on build rate as latest report is 22 trains now built, but taking 13 built in 5 months, will be introduced to service at 10 in 5 months, or two trains per month, so no faster than build rate. Won't catch up the backlog, and 54 trains will take 27 months to enter service until mid-2026.
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Post by ijmad on Dec 1, 2023 0:02:42 GMT
Will the B23s be used on particular DLR routes or are they just going to be mixed up everywhere?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 1, 2023 2:05:30 GMT
I expect that at first they will be put on diagrams that allow for relatively easy swapping of sets should the need arise (possibly Beckton-Canning Town), but once everyone is happy with reliability, etc. then my guess is they will be used on the busiest routes (Bank-Lewisham) first.
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Post by ijmad on Dec 1, 2023 9:09:26 GMT
I suppose once they've all landed in 2026, the system will be running the 54 B23Ks and the remaining 24 B07s only, which will always run in threes, so only 8 trains max. So the B23Ks will certainly be running everywhere, except maybe one route.
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Post by xplaistow on Dec 1, 2023 17:03:28 GMT
There are actually 55 B07s (so 18 3-car trains + 1 spare unit). 24 was just the size of the initial batch, followed up with a second batch of 31.
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Post by ijmad on Dec 2, 2023 14:21:57 GMT
There are actually 55 B07s (so 18 3-car trains + 1 spare unit). 24 was just the size of the initial batch, followed up with a second batch of 31. Ah, thanks for the correction. So it'll be around a 3:1 ratio once all are delivered.
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