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Post by snoggle on Mar 1, 2017 13:20:33 GMT
The papers for the 1st Investment and Programme Cttee panel meeting are now up. It includes a paper giving an update on the procurement of new DLR Rolling Stock. content.tfl.gov.uk/08-dlr-rolling-stock.pdfThe scope is 43 new "walk through" trains - 33 for straight fleet replacement and 10 for growth. Depot modifications at Beckton are also needed. Seems the B90/92 trains are at the end of their life and are suffering serious defects with poor levels of reliability. There would also be further contract options for more trains to cater for further demand growth / extension to Thamesmead. First new train would arrive in 2022 and last in 2024. Looking at the risk section it seems the possibility of decking over part of Beckton depot is being considered and there may be a combined DLR and bus depot there! Interestingly TfL are proposing the use of a finance lease to defer the capital cost impact of the new trains until the next business plan period. There is also an interesting Appendix 3 to the paper showing possible service expansion options and the numbers of extra trains required. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 1, 2017 21:05:45 GMT
Interesting to read that they are looking to change from three two-car units coupled to form a train to one six-car unit.
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Post by stapler on Mar 1, 2017 22:25:43 GMT
6-car trains? When does the DLR cease to be a light railway and become a heavy one, as most of it was before the routes were converted? (All right, I know the North Greenwich branch was in the Colonel Stephens mould)
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Post by phoenixcronin on Mar 1, 2017 22:52:23 GMT
6-car trains? When does the DLR cease to be a light railway and become a heavy one, as most of it was before the routes were converted? (All right, I know the North Greenwich branch was in the Colonel Stephens mould) Not sure what you mean? They already run 6 car trains, just in 3x2 formation. |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 1, 2017 22:58:05 GMT
6-car trains? When does the DLR cease to be a light railway and become a heavy one, as most of it was before the routes were converted? (All right, I know the North Greenwich branch was in the Colonel Stephens mould) Not sure what you mean? They already run 6 car trains, just in 3x2 formation. The paper makes clear that DLR wish to purchase trains that are "walk through" in design but 6 cars long. Therefore you would have a single train that is equivalent in length to 3 x 2 car units but without the intermediate car ends and couplings. The paper also makes clear that the future trains would have the same kinematic envelope as existing stock and would need to be as "flexible" as current stock in terms of coping with the curves and gradients that the existing stock copes with. Clearly the future trains will have more space inside and will allow people to spread along the train. It also means it is more likely that all services in future will be run with the equivalent of 3 car trains today. As the current fleet is constrained there is a mix of 2 and 3 unit workings. That is probably not sustainable in future if the anticipated growth materialises - especially on the Stratford - Woolwich and Beckton branches. |
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Post by North End on Mar 2, 2017 0:00:03 GMT
6-car trains? When does the DLR cease to be a light railway and become a heavy one, as most of it was before the routes were converted? (All right, I know the North Greenwich branch was in the Colonel Stephens mould) For me, the fact that it runs above 25 mph makes it much less of a light railway. Tyne & Wear Metro is also blurred, especially as the Sunderland section runs on Network Rail and shares these tracks with mainline trains. Then again, the surviving section of the Callington branch to Gunnislake is little changed today from its light railway days. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 2, 2017 0:08:25 GMT
6-car trains? When does the DLR cease to be a light railway and become a heavy one, as most of it was before the routes were converted? (All right, I know the North Greenwich branch was in the Colonel Stephens mould) Not sure what you mean? They already run 6 car trains, just in 3x2 formation. The paper mentions that part of the problems with the current fleet is the need to remove the centre unit from a train when it becomes due for maintenance and how this frequent coupling/uncoupling is leading to further units having to be removed from traffic for repairs. They are shifting to fewer longer units rather than the current many short units. (I'm using unit here rather than car for the shortest possible train that can be operated) |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 0:32:30 GMT
Not sure what you mean? They already run 6 car trains, just in 3x2 formation. I'm pretty sure TfL refers to each articulated DLR unit as a 'car' thus meaning that each train is currently formed of only 3 cars, not six. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 3, 2017 0:44:31 GMT
nnan correct. The platform extension works a few years ago were the "3-car Capacity Enhancement Project", and the stopping marks at the stations are labelled 1, 2 and 3. That didn't stop the information screens at Cyprus on the first day the extended trains ran on that branch proudly proclaiming the DLR was now running "three car carriages"...
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 3, 2017 8:01:21 GMT
Which is why I used the term "unit" to avoid confusion. They are changing from trains made of three units coupled to one unit of similar length to three units coupled.
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Post by venice on Mar 23, 2017 0:38:01 GMT
Which is why I used the term "unit" to avoid confusion. They are changing from trains made of three units coupled to one unit of similar length to three units coupled. According to the paper in the OP, the name is LRV Docklands Light Railway currently runs with a mixed fleet of 149 Light Rail Vehicles (LRVs)1 supplied by Bombardier. The specification for the LRVs is based on the original concept for the DLR, a light railway, carrying 1,000 passengers per hour in single 28 metre long LRVs. The network now carries over 115 million passengers per year and demand is predicted to grow considerably.
1 A single Light Rail Vehicle (LRV) on the DLR is made up of a 28 metre long articulated vehicle. These are operated as two (56 metre long) or three (84 metre long) LRV consists. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 23, 2017 12:30:27 GMT
Quoting the original specifications in passengers per hour, but the current ridership in passengers per year is really annoying me! Could kind soul convert one to the other to make the comparison easy for those of us who are not mathematically inclined.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 23, 2017 14:06:22 GMT
Quoting the original specifications in passengers per hour, but the current ridership in passengers per year is really annoying me! Could kind soul convert one to the other to make the comparison easy for those of us who are not mathematically inclined. Allowing for five non-traffic hours, the conversion factor is roughly 7000. |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 23, 2017 16:00:24 GMT
Quoting the original specifications in passengers per hour, but the current ridership in passengers per year is really annoying me! Could kind soul convert one to the other to make the comparison easy for those of us who are not mathematically inclined. Being a tiny bit more precise (well as much as you can with such poor data) than the Flyer from Kingston the original system's theoretical capacity was around 6.9m pass per year. Looking at Government official stats the first recorded year's patronage (88/89) was 6.6m pass jnys. There has been a steady rise in patronage barring some blips in the early 1990s but that was because the system was being rebuilt and extended to Bank. The system was shut for endless weekends and in the evenings. Unsurprisingly the cross river extensions have driven large increases in patronage. The latest Commissioner's report says TfL hope to select a contractor for Beckton depot modifications in the near future with a EU procurement notice being issued in April for the new trains (he says desperately trying to claw back on topic  ) |
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Post by brigham on Mar 23, 2017 18:16:35 GMT
EU procurement notice.
Desperately trying to buy foreign trains before we don't have to!
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Post by snoggle on Mar 23, 2017 20:45:59 GMT
EU procurement notice. Desperately trying to buy foreign trains before we don't have to! What nonsense. Complying with the law that it is required to do. And we don't have an indigenous *UK owned* rail manufacturing industry anyway so any "buy British" sloganeering is pointless. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 23, 2017 23:17:18 GMT
And there is nothing stopping any UK manufacturer bidding for the job. Including a new UK-owned one if they can get up and running in time.
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Post by brigham on Mar 24, 2017 8:41:45 GMT
There are numerous rolling-stock manufacturers in this country, all keeping British workers employed.
Time to support them.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 24, 2017 10:19:47 GMT
The economics of building, and particularly delivering, rolling stock make it likely that at least final assembly of most new trains takes place in the UK - although it is not unknown for the first examples of a new type to be built and tested abroad.
But most rolling stock builders in the UK are foreign owned. So although Brigham is correct that they will provide employment in the UK, Chris is also correct that the profits will probably go to Canada (Bombardier), Japan (Hitachi), Switzerland (Stadler), Spain (CAF) or Germany (Siemens)
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 24, 2017 10:47:23 GMT
And of those "manufacturers", none actually do any manufacturing - just final assembly if parts shipped in from across the globe.
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Post by domh245 on Mar 24, 2017 12:47:42 GMT
And of those "manufacturers", none actually do any manufacturing - just final assembly if parts shipped in from across the globe. Derby starts with body panels which it welds together and fits things to - which I would argue is more of a manufacturing process than it is an assembly process. Newton Aycliffe receive their workpieces like this. There are a few wholly British component manufacturers though such as BMAC, and plenty more who are UK based but foreign owned. |
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 24, 2017 16:45:51 GMT
Deliveries to the UK for light rail systems have all been complete vehicles. This is unlikely to change for the DLR requirements.
They will create UK jobs because the contract is to make and maintain them.
The expansion of Beckton depot will alsp create employment.
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Post by Ben on Mar 29, 2017 11:24:31 GMT
That graph of fleet MDBF's in appendix 2 is fascinating and worthy of a thread by itself. Just look at the Picc!
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Post by brigham on Mar 29, 2017 13:34:27 GMT
Deliveries to the UK for light rail systems have all been complete vehicles. This is unlikely to change for the DLR requirements. They will create UK jobs because the contract is to make and maintain them. The expansion of Beckton depot will alsp create employment. The maintenance jobs already exist; this is a replacement fleet, not an 'extra'. The depot expansion will create a number of jobs, some possibly permanent. This applies no matter who supplies the trains. Our aim needs to be to ensure that the chosen supplier is the one offering the greatest support to British industry and British jobs. Why so many people see fit to disregard this basic issue is beyond me; and has been since the 1970s, when I first started to come across it. |
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35b
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Post by 35b on Mar 29, 2017 14:22:05 GMT
Deliveries to the UK for light rail systems have all been complete vehicles. This is unlikely to change for the DLR requirements. They will create UK jobs because the contract is to make and maintain them. The expansion of Beckton depot will alsp create employment. The maintenance jobs already exist; this is a replacement fleet, not an 'extra'. The depot expansion will create a number of jobs, some possibly permanent. This applies no matter who supplies the trains. Our aim needs to be to ensure that the chosen supplier is the one offering the greatest support to British industry and British jobs. Why so many people see fit to disregard this basic issue is beyond me; and has been since the 1970s, when I first started to come across it. If buying from a British supplier costs more, or is to a lower quality, than buying from a foreign supplier, either up front or over the life of the trains, that means money is tied up with suppliers and not available for other, potentially more beneficial, purposes. If taken to the extent of being policy, that will also tend to reduce competitive pressure on quality and price. All of this also presumes such a 'British' supplier exists - which is doubtful. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 29, 2017 14:28:15 GMT
And of those "manufacturers", none actually do any manufacturing - just final assembly if parts shipped in from across the globe. Derby starts with body panels which it welds together and fits things to - which I would argue is more of a manufacturing process than it is an assembly process. Newton Aycliffe receive their workpieces like this. There are a few wholly British component manufacturers though such as BMAC, and plenty more who are UK based but foreign owned. Manufacture generally involves turning raw materials into a product, not just putting together elements into a final assembly. Welding panels and adding fittings is inherently assembly. Creating those panels in the first place is manufacture. Assembly /əˈsɛmbli/ (noun) the action of fitting together the component parts of a machine or other object. Arguably Bombardier in Derby do more than Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe - which could perhaps be considered purely 'fitting out'. Either way - none of the 'big' UK railway "manufacturers" actually do any manufacturing, from scratch, in the UK. However, this and similar discussion of UK job creation are off topic for the subject of new DLR rolling stock. Please keep this thread on the specifics of the new fleet, and take any further discussion of manufacture/assembly or job creation to their own relevant threads in their own relevant areas. |
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Post by flippyff on May 12, 2017 19:58:16 GMT
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Post by snoggle on May 17, 2017 10:32:14 GMT
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Post by flippyff on May 17, 2017 20:58:36 GMT
There's a little bit extra in the OJ-S notice - ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:185720-2017:TEXT:EN:HTML"<snip> II.2.1) Total quantity or scope: <snip> In addition, DLRL may require the disposal, in a sustainable manner, of the existing DLR rolling stock fleet consisting of up to 94 vehicles. <snip>" Simon |
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Post by AndrewPSSP on May 18, 2017 7:57:18 GMT
Will the new rolling stock have a proper recorded DVA, or will it keep the TTS the current stock have?
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