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Post by stapler on Aug 15, 2016 7:02:07 GMT
Although I live a mile from the Central Line,Loughton, if the wind is in the right direction, and the windows are open, I can hear the trains, and I certainly heard them in the small hours when I was dozing this weekend. Just something I don't expect. If I hear a train, then it's past 5am, like flights into LHR, which seem to take the north-eastern approach from about 6....
When a child, I lived right opposite the Chingford line, and could sleep through N7s, and J15s with unbraked wagons!
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Post by rheostar on Aug 15, 2016 7:27:55 GMT
If this occurs at shift change times, are the previous staff not kept on until the next shift arrives? For the sake of the hassle and disruption of closing then re-opening when the next person comes in, wouldn't it be easier to just pay the person being relieved a little o/t (handsome, no doubt) for the short period until the latecomer arrives, or somebody else is found to fill in? You're correct and that's what happens most of the time. However, sometimes people have commitments (such as child care) and they must leave at the finish of their shift. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 15, 2016 8:39:31 GMT
Just out of interest, has anyone seen any negative press yet about the noise from trains running all night after the test weekend? I live sufficiently far enough away from the central line (in South Woodford) for it to not be an issue, but I genuinely expect a fair few complaints from those who live in close proximity to lines to have a moan to some of the local rags. I don't know the west end of the central line all that well past White City, but the east end once it clears Leyton pretty much cuts its way through all manner of suburban (and nappy valley / NIMBY) areas. I haven't seen any press but London Assembly members have been asking Mayor's questions about noise issues from the Night Tube for many months. The questions have straddled the election and the change of party in a number of seats. There have been many promises made about pre-emptive track works and monitoring so the acid test is due shortly. It will be interesting to see if there is another torrent of questions for September's MQT. |
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Post by trt on Aug 15, 2016 10:34:05 GMT
If this occurs at shift change times, are the previous staff not kept on until the next shift arrives? For the sake of the hassle and disruption of closing then re-opening when the next person comes in, wouldn't it be easier to just pay the person being relieved a little o/t (handsome, no doubt) for the short period until the latecomer arrives, or somebody else is found to fill in? You're correct and that's what happens most of the time. However, sometimes people have commitments (such as child care) and they must leave at the finish of their shift. I have to say that with management relations being what they are at the moment (and I don't see things ever improving) the only reason I can see that a member of station staff would stay on to cover a colleague would be if that colleague asked them, that it wasn't a regular occurrence and they weren't an unpopular butt-hole. i.e. it would be a favour to a friend rather than out of consideration for passengers or management. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 15, 2016 11:49:08 GMT
the only reason I can see that a member of station staff would stay on to cover a colleague would be ....... as a favour to a friend rather than out of consideration for passengers or management. A "do as you would be done by" attitude helps a lot in any work environment, and a professional attitude to keep the show running. It always struck me as strange that the entirely common-sensical flexing of shift patterns by Tinsley and Meakin at Quintinshill attracted so much opprobrium. Eminently sensible for the night shift man to stay on until the day shift man could come to work on the train, rather than arrive tired and wet and cold after a two mile walk - and doubtless what goes around comes around, and the favour would be returned when the two men were working the opposite shifts. Instead, whilst distracted by having to fiddle the records to cover this practice up, they caused the worst railway accident in British history and the loss of an entire battalion of the Royal Scots Regiment (who therefore were not able to reinforce the Allied troops at Gallipoli, and may therefore have changed the course of WW1). Was the Caledonian Railway's policy of strict enforcement of rigid standardised shift patterns really that important? |
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Post by Chris W on Aug 15, 2016 12:16:52 GMT
When I was little, and up to the age of 19 (1984) I lived very close to the Central Line between Woodford and Roding Valley stations. I can't say I ever really noticed the train noises in all that time (and the trains and track were a lot noisier back then) although when I visit nowadays (my Dad still lives there) I do. It's all down to conditioning I suppose. In the end no amount of negative press will interfere with the needs of the party animal. My Nan used to love on a very busy 3-lane road en-route into Plymouth City Centre. Noisy motorbikes, not to mention police/ambulances using their sirens, used to travel along it all night, with the house fronts less than 15 feet from the road. Within a week of visiting, the noise became part of the background and I/my parents would adapt and ignore. |
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Post by stapler on Aug 15, 2016 13:03:54 GMT
At the risk of mods' annoyance re thread drift,what Meakin and Tinsley were doing was surely winked at by local management. After all, didn't the Gretna station staff telegraph "the boy will get a ride today?".
It was probably the one day in ten thousand that something went wrong. Then of course CR senior management got all pious. Always easy to blame the shiftless workers (or even the on-shift workers...)
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Post by trt on Aug 15, 2016 13:37:25 GMT
At the risk of mods' annoyance re thread drift,what Meakin and Tinsley were doing was surely winked at by local management. After all, didn't the Gretna station staff telegraph "the boy will get a ride today?". It was probably the one day in ten thousand that something went wrong. Then of course CR senior management got all pious. Always easy to blame the shiftless workers (or even the on-shift workers...) Many people raging about the strikes resulting from Night Tube simply fail to understand the relationship between management and non-management, the way that operational rules work and how the union helps shape those rules and just how culpable different levels of the structure are. I note that the gates in the platform circulation areas at Euston aren't fully installed yet: essential to controlling public access to non-operating areas, yet a year on from the initial start date of night tube and they're STILL not in place. Who is responsible for that? Who will carry the can if a liquored-up punter wanders into the City tunnels at 4am and falls asleep somewhere hidden? The punter for being an idiot, or the management for not having put in place what is a reasonable feature, i.e. a gate or shutter? The staff for not noticing the punter? Perhaps seeing his discarded drinks can or discarded trousers or pile of vomit on the supposedly closed platform and not putting two and two together? The control room assistant, or whatever they are named now, not spotting them on the cameras covering platforms that aren't operating? |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 15, 2016 15:11:51 GMT
Who will carry the can if a liquored-up punter wanders into the City tunnels at 4am and falls asleep somewhere hidden? The punter for being an idiot, or the management for not having put in place what is a reasonable feature, i.e. a gate or shutter? The staff for not noticing the punter? Perhaps seeing his discarded drinks can or discarded trousers or pile of vomit on the supposedly closed platform and not putting two and two together? The control room assistant, or whatever they are named now, not spotting them on the cameras covering platforms that aren't operating? What at harm would actually be done if someone wanders on to a platform where there will be no train for a few hours anyway? Happens all the time on the big railway, where many unstaffed halts can be accessed by the public at all hours. In any case, where there is cross platform interchange at places like Mile End it will be impossible to keep people away from the non-Night Tube line's platforms. So why is Stockwell (until Night Tube comes to the Northern Line), Finsbury Park (ditto the Piccy), or Euston any different? For many years there was no Sunday service on the Northern City Line. Was it fenced off from the Vic at High & I? |
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Post by stapler on Aug 15, 2016 15:59:14 GMT
H&I--Seem to remember it was, with portable lattice barriers, perhaps?
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Post by snoggle on Aug 15, 2016 16:59:44 GMT
For many years there was no Sunday service on the Northern City Line. Was it fenced off from the Vic at High & I? Nor a late evening or a Saturday service. There were (are?) sliding bostwick gates at the NR end of each cross passage and they were pulled across. Sometimes they were not very well pulled across and I doubt they were locked / padlocked. I understand the point you make but I think the Night Tube is a tad different. People using the tube have come to expect all (or almost all) of the network to be running. The tube for them is therefore all those coloured lines on the map [1]. The Night Tube is most certainly NOT all those coloured lines. People will have to retune their brains if they're going to use it and I expect a lot of "comprehension" problems for the next few months as the service builds up (assuming a settlement is ever achieved with Tube Lines staff allowing J, N and P to join in). Try retuning brains addled with alcohol and whatever else? Not sure I'd want to be on that bit of the front line. In that context I can see why LU has chosen to try to reduce the risk of passengers falling off platforms on non operating lines by installing gates to cordon off areas of stations. Big complex places like Baker St with only one line running are going to be nightmareish to control. Perhaps LU have got all this covered with training for the Night Tube rostered staff but I think it's going to be a struggle to be honest. You only need to look at the Night Bus episode of the "Routemasters - Running London" series to get a flavour for the sort of high jinks that will visit themselves on the tube and that's before we have the inevitable loons deciding to "celebrate" the launch of the services. I hope the Night Tube beds down and works but I do think it is going to take a lot of hard work from LU and BTP to make it so. [1] can we please just ignore and not debate Overground, DLR or TfL Rail colours please for the purpose of this discussion? Not another map debate please   |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 15, 2016 17:29:52 GMT
For many years there was no Sunday service on the Northern City Line. Was it fenced off from the Vic at High & I? Nor a late evening or a Saturday service. There were (are?) sliding bostwick gates at the NR end of each cross passage and they were pulled across. Sometimes they were not very well pulled across and I doubt they were locked / padlocked. I understand the point you make but I think the Night Tube is a tad different. People using the tube have come to expect all (or almost all) of the network to be running. The tube for them is therefore all those coloured lines on the map [1]. The Night Tube is most certainly NOT all those coloured lines. People will have to retune their brains if they're going to use it and I expect a lot of "comprehension" problems for the next few months as the service builds up (assuming a settlement is ever achieved with Tube Lines staff allowing J, N and P to join in). Try retuning brains addled with alcohol and whatever else? Not sure I'd want to be on that bit of the front line. In that context I can see why LU has chosen to try to reduce the risk of passengers falling off platforms on non operating lines by installing gates to cordon off areas of stations. Big complex places like Baker St with only one line running are going to be nightmareish to control. Perhaps LU have got all this covered with training for the Night Tube rostered staff but I think it's going to be a struggle to be honest. You only need to look at the Night Bus episode of the "Routemasters - Running London" series to get a flavour for the sort of high jinks that will visit themselves on the tube and that's before we have the inevitable loons deciding to "celebrate" the launch of the services. I hope the Night Tube beds down and works but I do think it is going to take a lot of hard work from LU and BTP to make it so. [1] can we please just ignore and not debate Overground, DLR or TfL Rail colours please for the purpose of this discussion? Not another map debate please Another issue attached to this is what I believe has been a significant rise in the amount of alcohol consumption over the last 20-30 years. Sure, some people are now getting tanked at home with their 12-packs from the local supermarket, but others are relying on clubs and remaining pubs to top up their booze intake to the new level, and you can bet your life some of the latter will be using the Night Tube to get them back home. Good luck indeed, on the front line! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 17:41:57 GMT
I can see from this thread that there's some concern over disruption from Night Tube passengers, especially those who have been drinking. Inevitably there will be some problematic people, I'm sure.
But is it fair to say that the New Year late running of the Tube is the closest thing to the Night Tube, and that this generally seems to work without major problems? In my experience as a passenger at New Year, people are rowdy but not disruptive, even the drunk ones. Most are appreciative of the trains running till 4am and only care about getting home. Hopefully this will be the case for the Night Tube too?
(If I'm being naive and the New Year running is actually a nightmare for LU staff, my apologies!)
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Post by snoggle on Aug 15, 2016 19:10:16 GMT
I can see from this thread that there's some concern over disruption from Night Tube passengers, especially those who have been drinking. Inevitably there will be some problematic people, I'm sure. But is it fair to say that the New Year late running of the Tube is the closest thing to the Night Tube, and that this generally seems to work without major problems? In my experience as a passenger at New Year, people are rowdy but not disruptive, even the drunk ones. Most are appreciative of the trains running till 4am and only care about getting home. Hopefully this will be the case for the Night Tube too? (If I'm being naive and the New Year running is actually a nightmare for LU staff, my apologies!) I've not travelled on NYE tube services so can't comment directly from experience. I do understand though that one fundamental difference is that access to stations is strictly controlled and the police marshall the large crowds from the Fireworks on the street and deliberately extend the time it takes for people to reach station entrances (esp main line stns). I understand that there have been "difficulties" with how that has been managed in some years (people getting agitated at being "coralled" and worried about missing main line trains where there are far fewer departures). I very much doubt that the Night Tube will have anything in terms of street level marshalling. There might be an enhanced presence in some of the very busiest ticket halls that might hold people back *if* platforms are full of waiting passengers. Obviously we have no idea at this stage how things are going to go and whether there will be overcrowding at platform level. I can certainly see places like Leicester Square needing some special attention once services on the Jub and Nor commence. |
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 15, 2016 19:32:55 GMT
Experience with night buses is that the majority of passengers are workers from the West End heading home.
The BTP/Met respond very quickly to any incidents.
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Post by North End on Aug 15, 2016 23:49:57 GMT
I can see from this thread that there's some concern over disruption from Night Tube passengers, especially those who have been drinking. Inevitably there will be some problematic people, I'm sure. But is it fair to say that the New Year late running of the Tube is the closest thing to the Night Tube, and that this generally seems to work without major problems? In my experience as a passenger at New Year, people are rowdy but not disruptive, even the drunk ones. Most are appreciative of the trains running till 4am and only care about getting home. Hopefully this will be the case for the Night Tube too? (If I'm being naive and the New Year running is actually a nightmare for LU staff, my apologies!) NYE is an unmitigated nightmare. I've worked it once, never, ever, again. More recently I had to look through some CCTV of last year's NYE to try and find out some more about a train incident. Watching platform footage at a zone 1 station was quite revealing. Fights and general misbehaviour was commonplace. People relieving themselves (both varieties) on the platform, seats, track or up against the wall, vomit and rubbish everywhere, people jumping down onto the track, fooling about when trains arrived, people falling over all the time, messing about with train doors, etc. Needless to say the trains end up in a totally disgusting state too. All varieties of bodily fluids everywhere, plus broken bottles, food remains, drink and rubbish. This includes floor, walls and seats. From a train staff point of view, the NYE shift tends to be characterised by handles being pulled, intruder alarms going off, doors being interfered with, soiled cars, fights, and vomit pi$$ or blood seeping under the J door. These are the sort of possibilities Night Tube may bring. One difference is that travel is generally free on NYE. |
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Post by North End on Aug 15, 2016 23:57:36 GMT
Who will carry the can if a liquored-up punter wanders into the City tunnels at 4am and falls asleep somewhere hidden? The punter for being an idiot, or the management for not having put in place what is a reasonable feature, i.e. a gate or shutter? The staff for not noticing the punter? Perhaps seeing his discarded drinks can or discarded trousers or pile of vomit on the supposedly closed platform and not putting two and two together? The control room assistant, or whatever they are named now, not spotting them on the cameras covering platforms that aren't operating? What at harm would actually be done if someone wanders on to a platform where there will be no train for a few hours anyway? Happens all the time on the big railway, where many unstaffed halts can be accessed by the public at all hours. In any case, where there is cross platform interchange at places like Mile End it will be impossible to keep people away from the non-Night Tube line's platforms. So why is Stockwell (until Night Tube comes to the Northern Line), Finsbury Park (ditto the Piccy), or Euston any different? For many years there was no Sunday service on the Northern City Line. Was it fenced off from the Vic at High & I? I think part of the rationale is it allows for works to occur in these areas, although how much work could be done would depend on whether equipment could safely be brought to site possibly having to be brought through operative parts of the station. I'm not sure whether having parts closed off means staffing levels can be reduced. |
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Post by stapler on Aug 16, 2016 6:29:33 GMT
I saw from the BBC London news report on the ghost running days last night that night tube staff are getting training to deal with "spillages". For the etymologically challenged, this is LU-management-speak for "piles of vomit". There seemed to be photo-ops at Leyton and other Central line places. Everything went like clockwork, according to the report.
But then of course, there were no passengers!
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Post by rheostar on Aug 16, 2016 7:06:05 GMT
I can see from this thread that there's some concern over disruption from Night Tube passengers, especially those who have been drinking. Inevitably there will be some problematic people, I'm sure. But is it fair to say that the New Year late running of the Tube is the closest thing to the Night Tube, and that this generally seems to work without major problems? In my experience as a passenger at New Year, people are rowdy but not disruptive, even the drunk ones. Most are appreciative of the trains running till 4am and only care about getting home. Hopefully this will be the case for the Night Tube too? (If I'm being naive and the New Year running is actually a nightmare for LU staff, my apologies!) Apart from 2015 which was unusually quiet, NYE is a right pain the back side. On one NYE that I worked we had four fights on four separate trains at the same time and that was just the Piccadilly line. The trouble with NYE is that at midnight everyone loves each other, two hours later they're trying to kill each other. I think the first weekend of NT will be very busy and we'll have a lot of problems. However, once the novelty wears off it'll be regarded as a normal way to get home. In some ways, once it's established NT might actually be quieter than at present. Currently, we have a surge of customers from 23:30 onward as people try to catch the late trains home, concentrating the 'merry people' into quite a short time frame to travel. With NT, this rush of people will be dissipated as there won't be the rush to catch a last train. |
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Post by trt on Aug 16, 2016 8:52:04 GMT
The trouble with NYE is that at midnight everyone loves each other, two hours later they're trying to kill each other. Auld acquaintance be forgot... now it's time for a whole fresh set. Hardaway'n'sh*** ya b******d! Hic. |
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Post by peterc on Aug 16, 2016 9:58:18 GMT
Nice theory, similar things were said about extending licensing hours. It is probably best just to wait and see.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 16, 2016 10:14:58 GMT
Everything went like clockwork, according to the report. But then of course, there were no passengers! Could this be a template for getting a vastly more reliable underground, moving forward into the 21st century? It surely bears thinking about. |
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Post by trt on Aug 16, 2016 11:02:36 GMT
It looks like there are folding gates over the City platform entrances at Euston now. Just in time. Just. I haven't checked the staircase entrances and direct cross platform interchanges yet, but I doubt they would forget those.
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Post by will on Aug 16, 2016 11:12:15 GMT
I've just noticed from Londonist doing a video on the running of ghost services to simulate night tube they had to "change the whole signal system round on the Central line". Does anyone know why the signals have to change and is this because the line wont be operating in some sections that will be shut down. Thanks
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 16, 2016 12:07:41 GMT
I believe, as a very basic explanation, that the signalling computers expected there to be an 'end-of-day' at 04.29 and would shutdown and reboot, something you wouldn't want if passenger trains are running.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 16, 2016 12:10:31 GMT
Apart from 2015 which was unusually quiet, NYE is a right pain the back side. On one NYE that I worked we had four fights on four separate trains at the same time and that was just the Piccadilly line. The trouble with NYE is that at midnight everyone loves each other, two hours later they're trying to kill each other.I think the first weekend of NT will be very busy and we'll have a lot of problems. Chortle.  I knew there was a reason why I don't bother going out on that particular night. I think that will happen in part but how long it'll take is anyone's guess. However I still think the fact that so many lines won't be running is going to cause problems with "merry people" not appreciating they can't get to Westbourne Park or Harrow on the Hill or Barking or Queens Park by Tube. |
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Post by peterc on Aug 16, 2016 13:38:33 GMT
Knowing the ability of the Great British Public to get things wrong when stone cold sober I think that that is very likely.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 13:24:09 GMT
Here is to Friday going well. I know there are concerns and of course alcohol consumption (as well as other consumption) is already a problem for last services.
Hopefully the fact that people will not be dashing for last trains early on will be of assistance. Not wanting to stray into politics, but the licensing reforms do not do what they purport to owing to being beholden to local licensing restrictions/boards. We have not seen an explosion of all night licensed venues and many with extended hours have conditions such as to being in 1 hour before closing, etc. owing to local restrictions. There are pros and cons, but we still in effect focus people on defined times and so still have chuck out rushes.
On a practical note, I see TfL are altering bus routes but leaving others that parallel the night tube routes in place for now. This is no doubt a result of the differential ticketing system we use in London and pressure from those that use the night bus as it is cheaper. It seems a missed opportunity in efficiency terms not to recast routes to have the night tube feed dedicated services to get people back to their homes. Maybe that will come in time after evaluation, but I suspect the arguments will rage on re the cheaper bus/more expensive underground. Other cities manage to avoid that of course with their flat pricing across modes (other than night bus surcharges in many cases).
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Post by MoreToJack on Aug 17, 2016 19:03:09 GMT
People who go out in London generally fall into one of two categories; those who live within the M25 and those without. The former generally tend to know how to get home when they've had a few, and as such they are unlikely to be too much of an issue when the Night Tube comes in.
The latter is where the problem will lie - although even then it is understated. Why? Last trains. Just because the Tube is running 24 hours, it doesn't mean that the national rail services are. Aside from Thameslink and a few services out of Victoria, there are no 24 hour mainline services. As such, many people will still be making the traditional rush at around 2330, even though Night Tube runs much later.
And let's not even talk about New Year. Although the last one was (I'm told) quieter than usual, it is a unique evening with unique challenges, and we had a fair few through King's Cross. I would happily not work another one.
Night Tube will be interesting to watch. Sadly I'm not too up to date on operational matters and how the trials went as I've been off work, but i am sure my colleagues will have everything in hand, and hopefully I'll get to pop out to cheer them on.
Finally, with regards to comments about staffing and the reduced footprint - many stations will have temporary barriers in place for the launch phases, where it isn't practical to install permanent ones. These will be managed in similar ways to how partial closures are dealt with for engineering works, or be of such design that customers cannot access the 'isolated' areas. The reduced footprint may also have a reduced staffing level if the Congestion, Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) determines that the station can be operated as such. As an example, King's Cross will be operating with roughly half the staff it would have at the traditional close of traffic, with a large amount of the station isolated off - the entire Western Ticket Hall and SSR side, and (initially) all of the Piccadilly and Northern line platforms and concourses.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 18:46:45 GMT
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I knew there was a reason why I don't bother going out on that particular night.
