Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Feb 15, 2011 11:27:08 GMT
Complete with an oil tail lamp! Is that shingle ballast aswell? Doesn't it just scream railway.
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Post by redsetter on Feb 16, 2011 0:01:38 GMT
its hard to understand why these new trains particularly the insides were chosen,they had a reliable design that's lasted fifty years does not date and introduce trains that have unsuitable seating for this line what there is of it,brought the demise of the chesham shuttle with winter problems' surfacing and have incurred reliability problems which the duration appears uncertain.any train looks smart when new but when these are targeted by vandals this soon changes spray and scratched glass looks terrible and has been widely apparent since the the 1980s,the tube system isn't disabled friendly and will never be 100 percent so building trains which seem to be a fashion today with large areas of standing space and a strange design of a continuous walk through which looks like it could have safety concerns too.they look nice on the outside though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2011 0:36:03 GMT
Agreed, i'm not saying the trains should have no disabled access, but having 4 wheelchair spaces per train when there could be more seats and quite a lot of stations are not wheelchair accessable seems excessive.
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Post by andypurk on Feb 16, 2011 0:38:00 GMT
This should really be in an S-stock section somewhere, but... its hard to understand why these new trains particularly the insides were chosen,they had a reliable design that's lasted fifty years does not date and introduce trains that have unsuitable seating for this line what there is of it,brought the demise of the chesham shuttle with winter problems' surfacing and have incurred reliability problems which the duration appears uncertain. I suggest that you look up 'Bathtub curve' to understand why the A stock design needs replacing and why the S stock reliability will greatly improve; basically new designs quickly get more reliable whilst old designs gradually wear out. Much of the equipment on the existing trains will no longer replaceable at a reasonable cost and the design certainly won't allow energy saving (such as regenerative braking) or capacity increasing (such as Automatic Train Operation) techniques to be used. Modern stock is designed to be vandal resistant (both the paint work and the glass). But much of the Sub-Surface railway already has step free access to the platforms and so is accessible, not every station but sufficient to be useful. As well as giving more room for passengers in central London, the open design of the stock is much safer than having end doors on the carriages, certainly both from the point of view of evacuation if there is a problem and for passengers feeling secure when the trains are emptier than normal. |
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Post by redsetter on Feb 16, 2011 16:46:27 GMT
not everyone who is disabled are in wheelchairs'.these trains resemble cattle trucks' rather then the old design.the bathtub curve sounds interesting but this can apply to any design particularly mechanical/electronic or anything for that matter, ie it either fails early or late this could apply to a domestic washing machine or a television set this has always been the percentage risk. the term sounds as if its nothing more then a usage rather then a revolution in design.its really a matter of opinion though what people prefer.personally i dont like the insides of these gangs of muggers' could easily operate and can see at a glance the whole train and the fire risk too in the design again perhaps thats just me that feels this way.
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Post by malcolmffc on Feb 16, 2011 17:20:00 GMT
Why on earth would an open train be an increased fire risk?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2011 18:02:38 GMT
Why on earth would an open train be an increased fire risk? Well if its in segregated boxes perhaps the fire has less chance of spreading to another box, whereas if its in a long line of joined up boxes, it can reach the inside of another box more easily. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2011 18:19:07 GMT
Why on earth would an open train be an increased fire risk? Look up Channel Tunnel fire(s). |
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metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
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Post by metman on Feb 16, 2011 18:50:12 GMT
The Channel Tunnel stock is designed to compartmentalise itself if a fire starts. Hence why all doors are closed sous la manche!
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Post by andypurk on Feb 16, 2011 18:58:32 GMT
not everyone who is disabled are in wheelchairs'.these trains resemble cattle trucks' rather then the old design. The space with tip-up seats are not just there for wheelchair users, but for people with pushchairs, bikes etc. Oh and by the way, cattle trucks would have no seats whatsoever. The bathtub curve says nothing about the actually failures themselves, but it looks at the rate of failures. The S-stock will have a high failure rate at the moment because the design is new and problems will still be being ironed out; this failure rate will rapidly decline as the problems are solved and the depot staff / drivers get used to the trains. On the other hand A stock will suffer from increasing failure rates as various components go way beyond their design life. Muggers can easily operate in the current trains and it is much harder to get to the safety of the drivers end of the train or an alarm. What is there to burn which would engulf a whole train? Especially one which has been designed to be fireproof. For a 'local' fire I would much rather be trying to escape down an open train than trying to get through the door at the end of the carriage. P.S. Please learn how to use paragraphs, your posts are extremely hard to read and respond to. |
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Post by andypurk on Feb 16, 2011 19:00:03 GMT
The Channel Tunnel stock is designed to compartmentalise itself if a fire starts. Hence why all doors are closed sous la manche! And the fires on open trains have involved lorries carrying fuel, not the passenger trains. |
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metman
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5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
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Post by metman on Feb 16, 2011 19:03:54 GMT
Correct. Thankfully, there has not been an incident. There is of course more scope with vehicles on board anyway.
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prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Feb 16, 2011 23:59:21 GMT
I'm afraid I cannot go into details at present, but can I just say that the withdrawal schedule (along with S-stock introduction) has met with a slight "pause." It would be foolish to say there haven't been any issues. We all know there have been. So the "pause" will be used to allow some of the issues to be fully ironed out before the whole program forges ahead. So whereas Mr oneround may spout certain dates, these are not going to happen. City running may also not meet the end of March target. [.....] So for the next few weeks at least, there will be no more slaughtered A-stocks ;D Now hold on a second. In the interest of fair play, oneround said on the 4th Feb, 2011 at 7:22pm to which prjb replied: So which is it, either the plan is being slowed down to cover current events, or it isn't? And how come oneround is wrong regardless. Blimey! I pop out for two minutes and it all 'kicks off'!! ;D I'm not trying to annoy or upset anyone, I think we all have a part to play on this forum and am not trying to be rude or shut anyone down. I think that Deadman has, when he is back, every right to post his opinions (provided they are not offensive) as does Oneround and my response to Oneround's post (qouted above) wasn't meant to cause offence. I merely stated the facts as I know them. In answer to Ben, both myself and MetControl are correct.  Let me explain… We have decided to delay the next 'S' Stock delivery to London, which in turn delays the next disposal of an 'A' Stock. We have taken this decision based on the fact that we have enough trains in London to run the current required service levels, and not because of the recent problems we have experienced. Whilst this is indeed (to qoute MetControl) a 'pause' it is not delaying any project schedules or milestones. When the next train arrives in London then an 'A' Stock will go out in accordance with the disposal plan. We are well ahead of the planned project milestones and therefore any accelerated plans (such as entering the City area, as MetControl mentions) could be held off without causing a delay to the programme. Finally, I am not operating with 'Green Eyes' - we all have a part to play and if Oneround has info to input then that is great. I benefit from info posted here just as much as everyone else. If I offended by posting a correction then please accept my apologies but I felt my response to Oneround was polite and in no way aggressive. On another note, I have known MetControl for a long time (back when I was a driver and then a signalman) and he is a great bloke and not one to get annoyed easily. Can we all just get back to being forum members with the same interests?  |
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prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
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Post by prjb on Feb 17, 2011 0:06:04 GMT
Why on earth would an open train be an increased fire risk? Well if its in segregated boxes perhaps the fire has less chance of spreading to another box, whereas if its in a long line of joined up boxes, it can reach the inside of another box more easily. 'S' Stock is a fully fire compliant train, and is designed not to burn let alone spread fire. Open gangways do not pose any sort of increased risk, and allow customers to move away from incidents easily. |
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prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
Posts: 1,840
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Post by prjb on Feb 17, 2011 0:18:01 GMT
not everyone who is disabled are in wheelchairs'. 'S' Stock is an RVAR compliant design, and the regulations cover all sorts of disabled users. these trains resemble cattle trucks' rather then the old design. That is just your opinion and any design is subjective. However the 'S' stock design is spacious (to accomodate more standing customers) and has open gangways so I'm not sure how they can be compared to cattle trucks. the bathtub curve sounds interesting but this can apply to any design particularly mechanical/electronic or anything for that matter, ie it either fails early or late this could apply to a domestic washing machine or a television set this has always been the percentage risk. the term sounds as if its nothing more then a usage rather then a revolution in design. New trains reliabilty grows as they achieve more mileage, older trains reliabilty begins to decline as they become less reliable. Simple as that. its really a matter of opinion though what people prefer.personally i dont like the insides of these gangs of muggers' could easily operate and can see at a glance the whole train and the fire risk too in the design again perhaps thats just me that feels this way. Crime on the Underground is dropping year on year and is at an all time low. I think you are really concerned with 'Steamers' (a form of mugging) and that sort of criminal behaviour is very rare on LU. We design our trains to benefit the majority of our customers the majority of the time, and we do not limit designs due to very rare occurences which would then give the majority of our customers a disbenefit on a daily basis. The 'S' Stock has been designed to meet the needs of a 21st Century railway that carries over 4 million people a day. In addition the train has been designed for a 40 year life cycle where passenger numbers are expected to continue to grow. The 'A' Stock is old and no longer meets these needs and will certainly not meet them over the next 40 years. |
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prjb
Advisor
LU move customers from A to B, they used to do it via 'C'.
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Post by prjb on Feb 17, 2011 0:35:59 GMT
Is it any wonder though, I suppose, that in an organisation with as many different chains and levels of command as LUL different people/groups can at times be singing from very different song sheets? I wouldn't ignor anyone, but I just dont like it when consensus seems to dictate the tone of response. As a project, information is distributed in accordance with peoples needs. We just wouldn't be able to give everyone every piece of information. It is our job to manage the project and manage the information so that managers and staff on the ground can get on with operating the railway without worrying about project issues. I would have thought that with something as major as the S stock introduction and A stock withdrawl the programme would be pushed from the top down and get constant feedback from the bottom up. The 'A' stock disposal plan is published but it doesn't have firm dates. When a new train comes in then an old train goes out. The depot dictate which old trains get scrapped based on their needs. As long as we have enough stock to operate the timetable (we do) then that is all that matters. If I don't allow another 'S' Stock delivery for 3 months (this is not going to happen I am giving an example!) then we don't enact the disposal plan and scrap another 'A' Stock for 3 months. How much political pressure is there to ensure the image of everything going to plan is stuck to, at least in public? Is this at times interfereing with what the people in charge would ideally like to do given more freedom? Perhaps these questions will be answered through the rail press in a decade or so's time. I'm sure though that the back story behind it all would make a fascinating read!  As a project we set our milestones and we are expected to deliver to them, we try to meet these milestones early wherever possible. The tax payer has a right to expect us to deliver this upgrade as quickly and efficiently as we can and that is where the real pressure comes in. We all know that this upgrade is essential to London and we all feel that pressure on a daily basis. The pressure is also on ensuring that everything we do is in the best interests of our customers both in terms of service levels and also in terms of value for money. We have been entrusted with a large amount from the public purse, at a time when the public purse is stretched, and it is our duty to ensure that we get the best possible return for that investment. I'm not sure how good a read the behind the scenes story would make! Life on the operational railway would make a much more colourful read if you ask me (and I've seen both sides of that coin!). |
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Post by malcolmffc on Feb 17, 2011 6:49:00 GMT
Why on earth would an open train be an increased fire risk? Look up Channel Tunnel fire(s). I need some help - can you point out the section of the Met on the tube map that involves a 25 mile tunnel for me? |
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SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
Posts: 9,737
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Post by SE13 on Feb 17, 2011 9:40:24 GMT
MODERATOR COMMENTWhile the staff have no problems with discussions about how fireproof the new trains are, we don't wish to see any discussion about the possibility and/or outcome of terror attacks.
The thread has been modified to this end. Please take a look at Rule 7b for details which covers such a topic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2011 18:00:45 GMT
MODERATOR COMMENTWhile the staff have no problems with discussions about how fireproof the new trains are, we don't wish to see any discussion about the possibility and/or outcome of terror attacks.
The thread has been modified to this end. Please take a look at Rule 7b for details which covers such a topic. Bit of a silly rule, it happens. However sad it is, it's something which has happened before and discussing how to prevent it is a good idea. |
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Feb 17, 2011 19:38:23 GMT
According to toppackage (youtube), 5232 is earmarked for preservation. How far true is this?
Where said....
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SE13
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2013
Glorious Gooner
Posts: 9,737
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Post by SE13 on Feb 17, 2011 20:00:26 GMT
MODERATOR COMMENTWhile the staff have no problems with discussions about how fireproof the new trains are, we don't wish to see any discussion about the possibility and/or outcome of terror attacks.
The thread has been modified to this end. Please take a look at Rule 7b for details which covers such a topic. Bit of a silly rule, it happens. However sad it is, it's something which has happened before and discussing how to prevent it is a good idea. Like it or not, it's a forum rule that we must all comply with, and needless to say that the content of this thread was talked about among all staff prior to any action taken. In this case, it's a case of don't shoot the messenger, I just happened to be the first person available to act, however it's a joint decision. Still, it's your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but it's not going to change anything within the structure of the forum or it's guidelines. In fact I think you'd be hard pressed to find anywhere allowing the subject to be discussed. Anyhow, can we respectfully move back to the subject of A stock being withdrawn, and not draw comparisons with the stock replacing it. |
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metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
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Post by metman on Feb 17, 2011 21:17:56 GMT
Yes, what truth is there regarding 5232-3 being preserved?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2011 21:20:30 GMT
If it is, Im glad to see its a 62, they seem to be abit forgetten among enthusiasts who are more into the mainline railway, lots of them referring to the A's as just A60's
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2011 21:39:27 GMT
I hope this true, however this has only been reported on YouTube so far, therefore I am somewhat sceptical  Xerces Fobe |
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
Posts: 745
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Post by a60 on Feb 17, 2011 23:48:29 GMT
Not A62, A60 cobbled together out of damaged carriages
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metman
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5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
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Post by metman on Feb 18, 2011 9:18:47 GMT
Yes, it is the remains of the cars involved in the Kilburn crash c1981 and other knocks! It is an A60, much like 5234-5. The A62s run from 5124-5231 minus a few of course  I was wondering if an A62 would be preserved. They are all single ended and use different compressors to the A60s - this is not good for a preserved train as in 10 years time there will be no spare. The A62s do share compressors with many of the C stock trains however. I would love to see a few trains preserved, A working 8 car in silver, and a four car refurb. I wonder if the silver units would be converted back to crew control? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2011 9:27:21 GMT
Wonder if they'll be, de-furbished too!
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metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
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Post by metman on Feb 18, 2011 12:41:15 GMT
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Post by Chris W on Feb 18, 2011 15:03:47 GMT
Yes, it is the remains of the cars involved in the Kilburn crash c1981 and other knocks! According to Wikipedia (not always right) the accident occurred in 1984 |
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metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
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Post by metman on Feb 18, 2011 15:23:07 GMT
At my parents, found one of my books - it was 1984 (I was thinking of the Harrow Nth Jn derailment) 5232-3 is formed from 5028-6028-6117-5117!
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