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Post by auxsetreq on Mar 15, 2012 12:32:37 GMT
I cannot, recall any dragging incidents on any of the modern stocks ( 92/95/96 ) in recent times. The most high profile of recent one's occurred on the Northern line, with 95ts, at Tooting Broadway on 1st November 2007 - RAIB report - the driver only became aware, despite having in cab CCTV, when he was pulled down.......and even then he still wasn't aware till he walked back. Within that report is a table which clearly shows 64 dragging incidents over 9 years, 7 a year on average. 21 of those were on the Northern line!! Elsewhere in the report it states there were 3 fatalities due to dragging incidents between 1990 & 2007 - I can well imagine someone saying that's acceptable, but that's 3 too many IMO. And whilst there are a couple of paragraphs that justify the whole dragging issue by quoting the likelihood of it happening - ie, you've got more chance of winning the national lottery - the report does acknowledge that the Northern line, even with in cab CCTV, has a higher than average dragging rate compared to all other LU lines. As you quite rightly say, the deep level tubes are "banged out" - so that must mean the ability to see the PTI is therefore diminished and this technology is actually more important. Or am I missing something obvious with that statement? Well, if that has been the case on The Northern ( thank you for enlightening us ) and with the Underground getting busier and busier, there's only one thing for it. If you want sensitive edge technology on the deep level tubes then the stations will have to severely restrict the amount of people being allowed onto the platforms just to let the trains get away. Especially if they are of the EVOstuck variety........... Doesn't matter how busy it is, you can see the PTI on the cab monitors at all times. Sometime entering a platform, always leaving it. Not only that you can adjust the speed of the train to make sure it's safe. If the train I was working on last night had been an 09 type I'd still be at TCR now. The onboard punters were holding the doors open to chat to their mates who didn't want to get on......... Ultimately it's not about saving lives, it's about saving money as this SE tech is the crux of the EVOstuck. And a further £3 mil plus is being spent to make sure/hope it works, rather than just ditching it as a flawed concept, a bold concept, a visionary concept, dressed up to make it look like it's a life saving concept, but still a flawed impractical concept on the deep level tubes. And if Tube Prune who is an expert says its a "debacle", then it is........
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 15, 2012 12:40:20 GMT
Nahh, I'm quite happy today - I've recently ditched Facebook.....and a wonderful world it is without it.......but thats another thread for another time - I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
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Post by auxsetreq on Mar 15, 2012 12:45:13 GMT
Nahh, I'm quite happy today - I've recently ditched Facebook.....and a wonderful world it is without it.......but thats another thread for another time - I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject. Yes, CC and I asked you if you had had too much coffee, and were you in a mood? We'd sooner the lively debate than agree with something that we feel is not a good idea......After all agreeing all the time is rather boring...........
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 12:56:44 GMT
Poorest episode so far but maybe what was needed after last weeks rather intense one. I too cringed at the "my ticket hall" remark and also found the other manager rather hard going with his "I want a name" comment. Not the greatest managerial style in my book. Cannot comment on the remarks above re the splicing together of footage to make a story about the door edges, however the editing in at least two other scenes (both in cabs) was really poor. Very obvious joins in the footage and somewhat unprofessional looking. Hope they are back up to the usual standard next week. If find these documentaries entirely predictable and the style hasn't really changed since the 80s. Hand pick a few jolly salt-of-the-earth staff who say things like 'i like the customers to be happy', portray all passengers as idiots, give the impression it'll all be fine when all the investment has finally gone in. These docs all follow the same formula whether they are about the police, a hospital or John Lewis
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Post by tubeprune on Mar 15, 2012 13:09:06 GMT
Actually, what price is a life? According to the DfT about £1.75million (2008). My view is based on the fact that a CBA would show that dragging detection (installation, debugging, modification and maintenance over the lifetime of the stock) would not show a positive ratio. Racka seems to agree. However, I do recognise that public service organisations like LU are politically driven towards a very conservative risk management strategy and that's why dragging detection was provided. The best example of such conservatism is the installation of TPWS on the main line railway which cost about £16million per possible life saved in 2002 (maintenance over lifetime excluded). I can say that the S Stock version of dragging detection has the modified setup and seems to have worked reasonably well.
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Post by Chris M on Mar 15, 2012 13:17:40 GMT
Passenger alarms on the outside? And how long would it be before someone who's just missed a train pulls/pushes one of the alarms so they can avoid waiting the 3 minutes for the next train? They'll also get activated when a train is sat in a platform with doors closed for longer than 5 seconds after arrival or 5 seconds before departure. Better I think would be emergency stop buttons on platforms like the Central Line has, combined with platform staff supervising the departure of every train who can transmit an emergency stop command to the train - should be easy to build that into the SATS baton (at worst both trains on an island platform would be stopped, but that occasional disruption must be worth it if the current sensitive edge disruption is regarded as being so). This technology was well known about on this very forum long before the first train was built, yet nobody here posted any concerns Are you sure about the last part of that? I remember much discussion about sensitive edges on this forum from years ago, and I'm sure concerns were expressed - otherwise discussion wouldn't have been so extensive! Actually I have vague memories of it being explained that trapped objects inside the couldn't activate the sensitive edge because they would be stationary relative to the doors. I don't have time to check but if that was the response to concerns about the potential for what is happening to happen, then it would explain limited ongoing concerns. Also, the sensitive edges were trialled on a C stock doorway (just recording when the system would stop the train, rather than actually stopping it). Why were these regular occurrences on the Vic not detected during this testing in a very similar environment? Or were they detected and dismissed? If so why?
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Post by auxsetreq on Mar 15, 2012 13:18:52 GMT
If find these documentaries entirely predictable and the style hasn't really changed since the 80s. Hand pick a few jolly salt-of-the-earth staff who say things like 'i like the customers to be happy', portray all passengers as idiots, give the impression it'll all be fine when all the investment has finally gone in. These docs all follow the same formula whether they are about the police, a hospital or John Lewis What did you think of the CSA with the bat at the opening of this week's episode..............." Yooawl 'ave a nice day. When yer ready driver, do your ting. Respec' " << ( to baffled looking suit )......... And, bless, the CSA who must of had an inkling that the Beeb were going to show up that day by trowelling on the war paint. A mane of hair like a My Little Pony and a pinkish orange tinge to the face with day glo pink lips made her look like a tropical sunset. She was good though...............
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 13:24:35 GMT
If find these documentaries entirely predictable and the style hasn't really changed since the 80s. Hand pick a few jolly salt-of-the-earth staff who say things like 'i like the customers to be happy', portray all passengers as idiots, give the impression it'll all be fine when all the investment has finally gone in. These docs all follow the same formula whether they are about the police, a hospital or John Lewis What did you think of the CSA with the bat at the opening of this week's episode..............." Yooawl 'ave a nice day. When yer ready driver, do your ting. Respec' " << ( to baffled looking suit )......... And, bless, the CSA who must of had an inkling that the Beeb were going to show up that day by trowelling on the war paint. A mane of hair like a My Little Pony and a pinkish orange tinge to the face with day glo pink lips made her look like a tropical sunset. She was good though............... I think the look of the passengers' faces summed up what they thought of that CSA - the last thing they want to hear in the morning. And yes that one at Victoria, she looked like a Barbie Doll didn't she - I thought there was something wrong with my telly
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Post by trt on Mar 15, 2012 13:38:18 GMT
Passenger alarms on the outside? And how long would it be before someone who's just missed a train pulls/pushes one of the alarms so they can avoid waiting the 3 minutes for the next train? Ooh, every day, but at £50 a pop for using an emergency alarm, that's an expensive option. The driver would stop without releasing the doors and either the CSA or driver would go back to investigate. At the very least, it could sound a warning to prompt the driver to check the platform cam.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 13:44:58 GMT
I can say that the S Stock version of dragging detection has the modified setup and seems to have worked reasonably well. AFAIK, S Stock is not much different to what the Victoria Line was 12 months ago. I think what does help them are more space, in less used areas (at the moment), and the door profile is significantly different, and dont lend themselves so well to being leant against. If you look at 09 Stock doors now, you will see a section at the bottom of the female seal has been cut away at each doorway. This is the first part of a more involved modification to the system, which will, in my opinion make the system more operable on a heavily used tube train. 'Intelligent' sensitive edges as referred to on the program the other night will not be being used.
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Post by redsetter on Mar 15, 2012 15:38:44 GMT
they shut covent garden station a few times because of the crowds' also.the whole thing looks manic.must be wondering whats going to happen next.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 16:11:19 GMT
Nope - the incident I'm referring to occurred on the Piccadilly line in October 1997, so it happened with the current 73ts. Ohhh
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Post by 21146 on Mar 15, 2012 18:41:50 GMT
Mind you, nice to see directors can still travel first class on company business.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 15, 2012 19:14:19 GMT
What did you think of the CSA with the bat at the opening of this week's episode..............." Yooawl 'ave a nice day. When yer ready driver, do your ting. Respec' " << ( to baffled looking suit )......... I did wonder if he was acting up for the cameras, as I'd never come across him at Victoria before.........but he was there yesterday morning and sure enough......"do your ting driver....have a nice day y'all"....and up went the bat. And, bless, the CSA who must of had an inkling that the Beeb were going to show up that day by trowelling on the war paint. A mane of hair like a My Little Pony and a pinkish orange tinge to the face with day glo pink lips made her look like a tropical sunset. She was good though............... No, she always looks like that Mind you, nice to see directors can still travel first class on company business. Isn't it just. On the whole, if I were Mike Brown I'd be a little embarrassed by some of the antics shown on the telly; drivers incorrectly laying across the handle, PA announcements outside correct protocols, whiteboards being used incorrectly - I'm pretty sure that if I had caught doing any of those, I'd be writing a memo at the very least (in fact I have in the past). I'd be very unhappy at seeing a fellow director of a publically owned & funded company travelling in first class. But then again, when Mike Brown did appear on camera he looked like he was in permanent shock - and didn't utter a word to either back up his fellow director or pull him up on his poor management style. 'They' say s*** rolls down hill - well if that's how the top boss works, it's no wonder we look so shabby at the sharp end!!
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Post by Chris M on Mar 15, 2012 20:20:11 GMT
What did you think of the CSA with the bat at the opening of this week's episode..............." Yooawl 'ave a nice day. When yer ready driver, do your ting. Respec' " << ( to baffled looking suit )......... I did wonder if he was acting up for the cameras, as I'd never come across him at Victoria before.........but he was there yesterday morning and sure enough......"do your ting driver....have a nice day y'all"....and up went the bat. He isn't alone. Last time I changed at London Bridge, I was greeted by a very hearty "Welcome to London Bridge ladies and gentlemen" followed by a listing of what we could do at London Bridge station and where we could visit in the vicinity, all performed in the grandest tradition of American masters of ceremonies. Indeed it felt like he was auditioning for such a role. It was OTT but it's still nice to encounter someone enthusiastic about their job (although my travelling companion did comment to the effect that it was probably about his second day).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 21:18:23 GMT
What did you think of the CSA with the bat at the opening of this week's episode..............." Yooawl 'ave a nice day. When yer ready driver, do your ting. Respec' " << ( to baffled looking suit )......... I did wonder if he was acting up for the cameras, as I'd never come across him at Victoria before.........but he was there yesterday morning and sure enough......"do your ting driver....have a nice day y'all"....and up went the bat. No, she always looks like that Mind you, nice to see directors can still travel first class on company business. Isn't it just. On the whole, if I were Mike Brown I'd be a little embarrassed by some of the antics shown on the telly; drivers incorrectly laying across the handle, PA announcements outside correct protocols, whiteboards being used incorrectly - I'm pretty sure that if I had caught doing any of those, I'd be writing a memo at the very least (in fact I have in the past). I'd be very unhappy at seeing a fellow director of a publically owned & funded company travelling in first class. But then again, when Mike Brown did appear on camera he looked like he was in permanent shock - and didn't utter a word to either back up his fellow director or pull him up on his poor management style. 'They' say s*** rolls down hill - well if that's how the top boss works, it's no wonder we look so shabby at the sharp end!! Do you not think that's a tiny bit harsh? Drivers are coming across as decent, friendly people which is 10x more important to managers than correct handle holding or a silly PA here and there. As for the whiteboards is that really a big deal? Seems like a rather harsh and OTT view in my opinion.
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cso
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Post by cso on Mar 15, 2012 21:26:03 GMT
I think showing a bit of personality has to be better than just doing the monotone PA announcements, and as a customer, I tend to prefer that - regardless of what the men in suits think...
Also, if there's something being announced, having the personality means that people might actually be more inclined to listen to the announcement, rather than just switching off to the monotone, continuous voice(s) or the digitised ones that you get at the likes of Kings Cross - where it doesn't flow like a voice etc.
As the service is provided for the public/customer/passenger/sardine ( ;D ;D ) it would be more beneficial to do surveys of the customers to see what they want...
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 15, 2012 21:35:57 GMT
I know what Colin means. The senior management came across, very smug. The bloke at Victoria was taking the p!$$ a little! Good to see a few members on camera. I'm starting to like Anne the Bakerloo T/op. Apart from being from my misses' clan she also likes old trains.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 21:53:06 GMT
I noticed that on one of the carnival episodes a manager was pushing customers in to trains, though they may have been obstructing the doors, I can't help but think that had a CSA or Train Operator done similar they would be sacked! You may even be able to say it amounted to a common assualt, unless it was to prevent them being injured by the door?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 22:09:22 GMT
Was it not also the carnival episode that saw Howard Collins incorrectly using the megaphone. Was he not encouraging people to cheer/ sing? Maybe he'll need to submit a memo?
I read the customer commendation pages on the companies intranet - in the vain hope those odd moments I'm helpful have been recognised - but there are themes with commendations. You get staff who help those taken ill or those who lost something. You get commendations for helping the tourist or sorting out an Oyster problem. But you get heaps of commendations when drivers make amusing announcements or station staff make fun announcements. I have read countless commendations for the Irish lady on the Bakerloo. The CSA at Warwick Ave and the fun announcements at Victoria.
These personalities make the tube special and Mike Brown would be madder than a mad person from mad land who had a particularly bad day if he clamped down on these personalities.
As for that driver on the Picc Line. SUPERB.
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Post by tubeprune on Mar 15, 2012 22:13:38 GMT
I can say that the S Stock version of dragging detection has the modified setup and seems to have worked reasonably well. AFAIK, S Stock is not much different to what the Victoria Line was 12 months ago. I think what does help them are more space, in less used areas (at the moment), and the door profile is significantly different, and dont lend themselves so well to being leant against. If you look at 09 Stock doors now, you will see a section at the bottom of the female seal has been cut away at each doorway. This is the first part of a more involved modification to the system, which will, in my opinion make the system more operable on a heavily used tube train. 'Intelligent' sensitive edges as referred to on the program the other night will not be being used. I was shown a test of the S Stock system at Neasden only the other day. It is (I was told) designed to operate with tension outwards but not inwards.
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Post by tubeprune on Mar 15, 2012 22:14:53 GMT
Was it not also the carnival episode that saw Howard Collins incorrectly using the megaphone. Was he not encouraging people to cheer/ sing? Maybe he'll need to submit a memo? I read the customer commendation pages on the companies intranet - in the vain hope those odd moments I'm helpful have been recognised - but there are themes with commendations. You get staff who help those taken ill or those who lost something. You get commendations for helping the tourist or sorting out an Oyster problem. But you get heaps of commendations when drivers make amusing announcements or station staff make fun announcements. I have read countless commendations for the Irish lady on the Bakerloo. The CSA at Warwick Ave and the fun announcements at Victoria. These personalities make the tube special and Mike Brown would be madder than a mad person from mad land who had a particularly bad day if he clamped down on these personalities. As for that driver on the Picc Line. SUPERB. Yes Sir, I agree with you 100%.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Mar 15, 2012 22:56:10 GMT
Re. the white boards being 'misused'... Actually more than a handful of stations still have the previous style ones with the brown wheely-bottom on them knocking about somewhere, so I've been told. Seen the odd one here and there, very rarely though. I suppose the number each station has, the number its supposed to have, and the number currently rostered/reuired for official display use on a day-by-day basis will have small discrepencies here and there. So why not use them for something more creative, welcoming, or useful, if someone has a spare minute to write something?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 23:01:08 GMT
Eastcote still proudly boasts a service update whiteboard with wheels, the East London line is not very proudly displayed, its covered in tape!
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 16, 2012 2:16:51 GMT
Do you not think that's a tiny bit harsh? Drivers are coming across as decent, friendly people which is 10x more important to managers than correct handle holding or a silly PA here and there. As for the whiteboards is that really a big deal? Seems like a rather harsh and OTT view in my opinion. Depends if you've had a bollocking in front of customers, been stood down and told to submit a memo - all because when I was station staff I wrote on a whiteboard that a signal failure wasn't under the control of local station staff. Again whilst I was station staff, I had to write up a document on station presentation standards because I was caught using my mobile phone whilst on the station in uniform and in customer view. Maybe I'm suffering sour grapes for the way I've been treated in the past, or maybe I was taught to follow laid down standards - point is from Mike Brown's point of view one would expect to see things being done properly on the telly. But you get heaps of commendations when drivers make amusing announcements or station staff make fun announcements. I have read countless commendations for the Irish lady on the Bakerloo. The CSA at Warwick Ave and the fun announcements at Victoria. These personalities make the tube special and Mike Brown would be madder than a mad person from mad land who had a particularly bad day if he clamped down on these personalities. We had one on the District who never shut up on the PA - he was discussed on this forum a while back. He was also nominated for train driver of the year. Trouble is he got himself in a panic when he forgot to set up his DVA at Edgware Road and ended up in trouble for accidentally opening the doors whilst departing (You press the door open buttons to start the DVA on a C stock). Personally I'd rather keep my job safe rather than worrying about making "amusing" PA's. I best most customers would rather we just shut up and didn't say anything at all TBH.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2012 9:31:52 GMT
Whiteboards. There are no official numbers. U simply order new ones when you have too many posters. Then find yourself with too many so you have to hide the blighters. I believe we still have some old boards lurking out hiding behind a pillar. Reminding u that blackfriars has reopened or Canada water has no lift. No thought of the day will ever don my boards however.
Colin, I personally do the same. I do what is expected. But being an individual isn't wrong. We are after all humans and not simply employee numbers. Guy yesterday said we should have a sing song while I was doing SATs (yep white shirt doing SATs. I was spare). Should I have told him that singing was against company standard 78557589 sub section 464776 paragraph 1 in the presentation handbook or what I told him I am tone deaf and it really wouldn't be pleasant if I sang even for the 2 min wait for their train?
We have some eccentric staff and they just need a little closer management to make sure they comply with standard in their own style. A blanket policy is simply lazy management.
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Post by auxsetreq on Mar 16, 2012 10:45:23 GMT
As for that driver on the Picc Line. SUPERB. It's *Dylan* - Please tell me you're being ironic, please! Otherwise I'll have to cancel more appointments at the head doctor clinic to make more room for yet another client.............. I'm sure *Dylan* isn't like that in "real" life. It's the hypnosis of the cameras that makes him, and others act like they've imbibed the libations of *professor* Brian Cox..............
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Post by auxsetreq on Mar 16, 2012 13:08:30 GMT
Didn't you hear? Appointments are currently unavailable because a peculiar man and his imaginary cat are being treated as a priority. I see the loneliness of LU train operating effects different people in very different ways, some are shining examples of good employees, some turn to religion, some of which would like to restore a 1973 cab, others with the excessive use of unnecessary punctuation. I'm happy to inform you that appointments are now currently available because we phoned up the clinic to cancel some of our own <<<< That was the gist of our post which appeared to go right over your head. Would you like us to make an appointment for you? They take on anyone. Me, Dylan, Olly and the *prof*....... CC is far from imaginary. As you can see, she's just passed her test - Yippeee!!!!! I would like to buy her a little run around. It's just a matter of the insurance and petrol prices that put me off.......... i40.tinypic.com/2800dit.jpg****~#########...............~~~~~~~~ <<<< and some more excessive and unnecessary punctuation for you............##~~~~~~~~*********<<<< and a bit more. Value for money we say............
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Post by Chris W on Mar 16, 2012 13:20:09 GMT
This has got me thinking.... its only tube stock drivers that appear to have been filmed (67/72/73 & 09). Does this mean that T/Os on deeper lines are likely to become more eccentric unique when compared to their sub-surface A/C/D/S stock driving cousins ;D ;D ;D Might this be evidence that being closer to the earth's core has a greater affect upon the fail human frame (& mind) the deeper down you go... In all seriousness I rather get the impression that the producers are using filming sequences and developing them into a storyline in order to represent the common examples of issues that occur on LU (including how staff deal with them) on a day-to-day basis, rather than giving a true account (continuity) of what happened on any given day. My interpretation is that the series is coming across as very non-judgmental, allowing the viewer to reach their own conclusions.... if only more elements of the media did the same, not only with regard to transport issues, but also reporting in general
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Post by trt on Mar 16, 2012 13:30:12 GMT
Does this mean that T/Os on deeper lines are likely to become more eccentric unique when compared to their sub-surface A/C/D/S stock driving cousins ;D ;D ;D Might this be evidence that being closer to the earth's core has a greater affect upon the fail human frame (& mind) the deeper down you go... It's a little known fact that time moves slower under-ground. It's why the clocks in the LU ticket halls never seem to tally with the ones in the NR concourse. You see, if you are up on the surface, then due to the rotation of the Earth, you move further through space per unit time, but the surface and sub-surface regions are bound together by physical constraints, so if the relative position, hence distance, cannot change, it must be time that changes.
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