|
Post by rebeltc130 on Apr 5, 2023 15:36:36 GMT
Wasn't Chelmsford a possible destination when the Ongar line was first built, and also in more recent times since privatisation spoken of as a relief route for the Great Eastern? Also recall reading about that when the Ongar line was built. It is not clear how the planned route would have travelled to Chelmsford and if it differed from what was considered in the 1944 Greater London Plan, yet connecting back onto the Great Eastern Main Line from Ongar at Margeretting would be more logical than running towards Chelmsford roughly parallel to the A414. Wasn't Chelmsford a possible destination when the Ongar line was first built, and also in more recent times since privatisation spoken of as a relief route for the Great Eastern? This was mooted in LOIS - the London-Ipswich multimodal study in the late 1990s. The line from Leyton to Ongar is to main line loading -gauge. But to preserve the metro type operation of the Central Line would have meant quadrupling south of Loughton or Woodford = megacost. Was the mooted late 1990s LOIS - the London-Ipswich multimodal study to follow a similar route as the mentioned in the 1944 Greater London Plan or did it differ significantly from the earlier scheme?
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Mar 24, 2023 11:52:28 GMT
Recently heard within the 1944 Greater London Plan by Abercrombie there were plans to extend the GER from Epping to Hertford East via around Rye House as well as from Ongar to Chelmsford, the latter by way of linking up with the GEML somewhere between Ingatestone and Margeretting.
Was the original plan for the Central Line and Mainline railways to run parallel between Leyton to Epping and Ongar as opposed to the route being completely taken over by the Central Line under the New Works Programme or were there intentions by some in government to limit the Central Line eastern extension from Leyton to Woodford via Hainault (that may also tie into ideas for a Central extension from Newbury Park to Collier Row)?
Also is there any truth to claims that before the Epping-Ongar route was closed on the Central Line, the route's fate and need for upgrades was pretty much tied to nearby RAF Chipping Ongar being one of six proposed sites in the 1970s to become London's 3rd airport before Stanstead was chosen? Curiously in the 1944 Greater London Plan the site at RAF Matching, not RAF Chipping Ongar that was planned to become an airport.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Jul 29, 2022 19:21:35 GMT
Of course, the Central Line Leytonstone- Newbury Park section part of the Loop was built ***under** Eastern Avenue in the late 30s...a rail and road scheme rarely depending on each other. Had the line of the Claybury railway/tramway been followed in 1893, the development of NE London would have been radically different... BTW, does anyone know how the Claybury line crossed the Roding? I seem to recall before Woodford bridge was replaced c1970 a line of stumps in the river bed...but am not sure Speaking of the Eastern Avenue and lack of coordination between rail and road schemes, it is interesting to read the Ringways M12 article at roads.org.uk how the Central Line's Leytonstone to Newbury Park section would unwittingly end up creating a particular sticking point in the Ministry of Transport's later post-war plans to improve the A12.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Jul 28, 2022 18:46:37 GMT
It was very common before the days of derv-powered equipment to build temporary railways to enable huge civil engineering projects. I doubt whether many of them were engineered other than on a cheap and dirty basis, so I don't think any would have been laid out with any kind of permanent use in mind. Some did persist as supply routes (like the Surrey asylums railway Wikipedia: Horton Light Railway) but most were simply taken up and reused. Another Essex example was the Claybury railway, which left the GE Loughton and Epping branch at Woodford. Arguably, if had been more strongly engineered, it might have been a better bet than the Fairlop Loop 10 years later.... What stands out even with the temporary railways like Becontree Estate and others would be how it unintentionally influences later planners investigating railway schemes, at least in terms of nearby location (if nothing else) the Claybury railway example brings to mind yet another stillborn (albeit high-speed) rail scheme running through south of Claybury Park in parallel to the unbuilt M12. The limited information available on the Claybury railway has it as a tramline running from Woodford roughly along Snakes Lane and Manor Road to present day Repton Park near the former Claybury hospital. Can see what you mean on a strongly engineered form of the Claybury railway being a better alternative to the later Fairlop loop for aiding commuters in the Claybury Park area (recall it being briefly touched upon in a Londonist article a few years back IIRC).
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Jul 27, 2022 23:15:35 GMT
The recent opening of Barking Riverside and previous ideas for the Overground and DLR to reach Thamesmead has got me thinking. After the temporary Becontree Estate Railway was dismantled in 1934, has it ever been established if there was an unstated intention by subsequent planners to eventually establish an indirect north-south successor route of sorts to further improve rail connectivity in the area?
For example there was the early Route J proposal from Plumstead to Dagenham in the 1949 report, more recent was the 2007 consultation on the DLR extension to Dagenham Docks via Barking Riverside from Gallions Reach where it was noted the route could eventually be extended further towards Dagenham Heathway, although am uncertain if there were any similar schemes between that time or pre-war soon after the Becontree Estate Railway was dismantled.
Taken together as a whole rather than looking at each scheme in isolation (and leaving aside the short-lived East London Monorail idea from a few years back), one can almost see at least on Rail Map online and Carto Metro what amounts to a basic outline of a potential orbital route linking Goodmayes / Chadwell Heath to Gallions Reach / Thamesmead via Dagenham Docks.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Dec 28, 2020 11:42:52 GMT
Would it be correct to assume the stop to the south of City Road on the 1855 map was also planned to be Barbican and include a link to Waterloo? My interpretation of the station south of City Road on the 1855 plan is that it would be in the Moorgate/Fore Street area. The link with the Eastern Counties Railway (from what was then its Bishopsgate terminus) to the Moorgate/Fore Street station to me suggests that they were anticipating some kind of grand "City Terminus", a bit like a German hauptbahnhof. This kind of idea was quite popular in London at the time, and indeed it was one version of it that would later go on to become the Metropolitan Railway we all know and love. The link to Waterloo rang a bell in my head somewhere - at first I thought it might be part of Joseph Paxton's Great Victorian Way proposal of about the same time. However, having double-checked, this would follow a different route to Lambeth, so I'm not sure I can help you there. Incidentally I've just come across a reference to an even later proposal (1903) to construct a Behr-style monorail along the Canal under the title of the North Metropolitan & Regent's Canal Railway, in Alan Jackson's "London's Termini". The Great Central bridge over the Canal into Marylebone includes an extra span to allow for the then-authorised RCCDR, and is probably the only tangible physical reminder of any of the various Regent's Canal Railway projects. The 1892 route's stop at Barbican seems to be curiously similar to another 1891 proposal traveling towards the northeast from Whitecross Street, the latter if one were to hazard a guess would have followed part of the 1892 route from Barbican / Whitecross Street before diverging from Kings Cross onto the Tottenham and Hampstead Junction Railway after Kentish Town towards Highgate Road / Junction Road? Have read of previous plans for Waterloo running to London Bridge at one time, which had it been realized could have opened up the possibility for trains running from Waterloo to Blackfriars and Cannon Street (at the expense of Waterloo East). Which is what immediately came to mind with the 1855 map's link from Waterloo to Moorgate/Fore Street area (with what appears to be an additional stop around St Paul's). Will look to check out Alan Jackson's London's Termini, does the 1985 edition have any addition content over the 1969 edition?
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Dec 27, 2020 19:29:40 GMT
Just a quick post which I'll hopefully flesh out with more details later, but if you can view a copy of the 1892 "District Railway Map of London", the Regent's Canal, City & Docks Railway (RCCDR) is shown with specific locations of passenger stations, and a different route for the City branch to the one shown on your 1855 map.
--
edit: Fully zoomable version of said map available here [https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/0001bm/the-district-railway-map-of-london-5th-edition-adams-sons]. Hope this help. --
It's interesting the way the 1855 plans take a circuitous route to get to the Thames - no doubt to use the mothballed Thames Tunnel, as-yet unused by the East London Railway. Thanks for the 1892 map quex. So the stop south of City Road was envisaged as Barbican, other proposed stations including Maida Vale (located where Blomfield Road meets Edgeware Road), St John's Wood Road / Lords, Camden Town, Primrose Hill (located around Prince Albert Road), Caledonian Road, Angel, New North Road, Kingsland Road, what appears to be South Hackney (similar proposals dub it Cambridge Heath Road) and Victoria Park. The 1855 proposal appearing to include stops at Globe Town and Mile End Road. Did not realise there were grander ambitions envisaged for both maps, would it be correct to assume the stop to the south of City Road on the 1855 map was also planned to be Barbican and include a link to Waterloo?
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Dec 26, 2020 21:53:41 GMT
Have been trying to read up on the 1855 Regents Canal and Railway Company plan to convert the canal between Paddington and City Road basin into a railway as well as other proposals up (including one from Kings Cross to Limehouse) to 1883 with the Regent's Canal and City Docks Railway Company later the North Metropolitan Railway and Canal Company in 1892. Ultimately with no railway being built. Have a few questions. 1) Were there any great differences on the planned routes proposed by the above? 2) Do any other more detailed maps exist besides the 1855 proposal below? 3) Apart from Paddington, Kings Cross, City Road and Limehouse. What other stations were envisaged over the years (beyond the 1855 map below) before the idea of a Regents Canal railway was abandoned in the 1890s?
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Jun 3, 2020 16:16:31 GMT
At least part of it was aimed squarely at suburban development in both rural but mainly metropolitan Essex, for the simple reason that the better class of shipping clerks, dockyard managers etc were wishing to move out of the East End areas or further from such places as Stratford, Forest Gate etc. The reason for this was of course London Docks being at its' height then. On a political level, none of the three parties then forming the vast majority of Parliament were anything else but avid supporters of British imperialism, whose many exports to the mother country were arriving in immense quantities in London Docks, so improving the lot of at least part of the workforce therein was in everybody's interest in 1929. Still at that level, the Liberals were then split between Lloyd-George & Asquith factions as a result of their reduction to 30-odd seats in the previous General Election. I suspect the old walrus-moustachioed one was trying to appeal to all, by reviving some pre-WWI ideas, and embracing the new economics of Keynes at the same time. The question for me, on the transport level, too, is whether in so doing he would end up trying to appeal to one & all and actually appealing to nobody at all, or whether he was a genuine transport visionary, or any shade in between. Fascinating-especially considering how radically LT would soon be transforming London's transport. Perhaps proposal B6 could be interpreted as making use of the Bow Curve to get to Romford via Stratford (given the proposed routes that later became part of the Central Line in the New Works Programme were to initially travel to Leyton / Wanstead via Victoria Park instead of Stratford), unless it was possible for a new surface line to be established to Romford from Fenchurch Street via Dagenham and Becontree at some point during the pre-war period? The Revised 1938 / Published 1946 maps of the area at NLS between Beckton to Romford does appear to give a rough idea of how this proposed surface line could have worked had it been implemented in some form, yet could also see it being followed by an additional branch to Dagenham Docks towards Grays and beyond. Regarding the Liberals. Within Alternate History circles and aside from the troublesome sentiments of DLG during this period, some typically like to lay the groundwork for a pre-war Liberal party that still remained a relevant force up to even during the post-war period in the context of allowing the UK to quickly bounce back from the 1929 Crash and depression. Usually via a Keynesian approach to recovery and various domestic infrastructure projects (including transport) as presented in the "We Can Conquer Unemployment" - 1929 Election Pledge, to go some way towards improving British prospects during WW2 in order to help mitigate or butterfly away its post-war bankruptcy (that precluded it from realizing many projects including railway) as well as move the UK towards a more graceful decline from Empire*. Though IMHO a few changes would have been required beforehand, perhaps even as early as 1870 onwards up to immediate post-WW1 period to at least allow someone like Austen Chamberlain to become both Liberal Leader and Prime Minister in the late-20s to mid-30s in place of both DLG or Austen's more infamous half-brother. * - Fwiw there were some in the US like Robert A Taft who wanted Britain to receive an outright gift in place of real-life President Truman’s Anglo-American Loan, which might have been feasible had Thomas E Dewy became US president in 1944 and obviously goes some way to helping the UK quickly bounce back from WW2 as well as realise various post-war domestic transport and other infrastructure projects.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Jun 2, 2020 12:58:57 GMT
A considerable amount of this took place, once Adolf Hitler had rearranged Dockland etc. The 1930's New Works allowed LT (not yet formed) to borrow capital at an advantageous rate from the Government, which expedited some parts of it. A couple of things where time had already moved on: The ex-London & Blackwall Railway had closed, along with the Millwall Extension Railway, in 1926. The high-capital cost of renewing tramway infrastructure was about to impact on London's transport executives, resulting in the 1930's scheme, only partially implemented thanks to Hitler, of replacing all of the trams with trolleybuses. And one impact neither DL-G nor his co-author of this, John Maynard Keynes, could have completely foreseen-that (1929) year's Wall Street Crash, and its' extreme effect on the unemployment situation from 1931 onwards. Agreed. Have to wonder to what extent the planned new routes proposed were to merely be extensions of the existing lines as opposed to new lines. Both proposals B1 and B7 appear in practice to be the early beginnings of what became the New Work's Central Line extension and takeover of the Fairlop Loop, Epping / Ongar via Loughton, etc, while the proposed connection to Romford appears to precede the proposed post-war extension to Collier Row. Another variation of the above could possibility include the W&C utilizing a version of proposal B1, based on later unrealised 1934 plans to extend it from Bank to Shoreditch via Liverpool Street to connect to the East London Line (along with post-war plans for it to takeover one of the Lea Valley routes). Do not quite understand proposal B6, more specifically the extension by new surface line to Dagenham, Becontree and Romford. The previous two appearing to be redundant, while question how they envisioned a route to Romford. Would a mainline route from Fenchurch Street to Beckton via Blackwall and Canning Town have opened up the possibility of an extension from Beckton to Dagenham Docks? Find it interesting how a few of the proposals (e.g. A3, B3, possibly B4 and C1) taken together appears to be a merger of sorts between the GN&C, Metropolitan and part of East London Line running from Edgware and High Barnet to New Cross onwards. Appearing in essence to be a revival of the pre-war WW1 1913-1914 proposals to merge the GN&C and Metropolitan between Old Street and Moorgate / Finsbury Circus / Liverpool Street including a version that separates it a bit from the H&C/Circle between Finsbury Circus / Liverpool Street and Aldgate East (with interchange station at Aldgate) towards East London Line via St Mary's Curve.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Jun 1, 2020 13:18:19 GMT
Whatever one's thoughts of David Lloyd George, found the following in the London Passenger Transport section (from pages 18-20) of his We Can Conquer Unemployment pledge for the 1929 UK general election rather interesting in terms of proposals and how they compare to the New Works Programme a few years later. - britainforward.org/Unemployment%20Lloyd%20George.pdf
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Jan 12, 2020 3:58:29 GMT
There's an interesting map the area at www.hertfordshire-genealogy.co.uk/data/answers/answers-2010/ans10-039-bull-baiters-farm.htm. Apparently, Bullbaiters Farm was originally known as Bullbeggars. Using the map mentioned above, an OS map from the 1890s, and the current one, it looks like Bullbaiters Farm was to the east of Maxwell Park along Bullhead road, roughly at the same latitude as the Tesco petrol station. I'm prepared to be off a bit in any direction. (There went an interesting half an hour .) Thanks for taking the time to research Bullbaiters Farm, it is one of a few historical rail themed locations that search engines appear to find nothing on (the W&ER's Caldecott Hill is one, the proposed site for Old Bushey is another, while assuming Heathbourne Road was to be sited nearer to the later Northern Height's stop at Aldenham / Bushey Heath). Will hazard a guess and say the proposed location was roughly south of the NHSBT Borehamwood and north of Kenilworth Drive as well as east of Bullhead Road and west of Manor Way. It would have been interesting to see how and where the extension would have crossed the main line. There would need to have been one major tunnel. Also might there have been an intermediate Station around Barnet Lane? Perhaps entering the realms of Fripas?! From a glance at the rough map on page 20 of Tony Beard's book, it would be appear the proposed extension would have crossed much further south than around Barnet Lane, would say slightly northeast of Broadfields Primary School across the mainline through Scratchwood Open Space before heading to Borehamwood East west of Froghall Cottages. Whether there would be scope for an eventual intermediate station east of Broadfields Estate that interchanges with the mainline is another matter altogether.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Jan 11, 2020 1:05:10 GMT
On page 19 in Tony Beard’s A Tube Beyond Edgware book, it says a Chartered Surveyor by the name of Alan Daly saw Frank Pick on 24th October 1933 with a proposal for the extension of the Edgware line to Bullbaiters Farm in Borehamwood.
It is known whereabouts Bullbaiters Farm is located today? Only know it was to diverge from the proposed route from Edgware to Bushey at Elstree (Brockley Hill?) station and that the LPTB began to refer to the terminus as Borehamwood East roughly east of Bullhead Road?
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Nov 21, 2019 3:16:26 GMT
North of Parsons Green to east of Dalston was a much shorter route than current Crossrail 2 development of that proposal! Indeed. Capacity and any other issues aside, had the option been available it makes one wonder whether the Chelsea-Hackney tube route south of Victoria and north of King's Cross St Pancras (and even the core route to a lesser extent) would have been better off as (less ambitious) branches of an expanded Victoria line (in tandem with a further eastward extension from Walthamstow Central) as well as theoretically cheaper too compared to the current Crossrail 2 proposal.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Nov 20, 2019 0:43:15 GMT
I see. Was the now-NLL formation east of Dalston always the only option for the Chelsea-Hackney on grounds of cost or were options considered prior to surfacing before Leyton depending on previous proposals?
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Nov 17, 2019 23:12:57 GMT
Unless my memory is completely failing me, the detailed safeguarding plans that I saw around 10-15 years ago had the alignment between Hackney and Leytonstone running underneath Coronation Gardens in Leyton, so that would have meant a route completely to the north of the A12 and Olympic Park. Bear in mind though that this safeguarding was based on a route planned in the 1990s, so before any notion of the Olympics and possibly even before the CTRL (Channel Tunnel Rail Link - now HS1) alignment was planned through Stratford. It is strange for Leyton to be omitted in favour of Leytonstone as reputedly considered in the 1990s Express Metro scheme compared to the earlier schemes in 1974/1989 let alone be for another route north of the A12 and Olympic Park to be considered running beneath Coronation Gardens (to a possible stop at Leyton north of the A12), was under the impression a Chelsea-Hackney takeover of one of the Central Line branches entailing the route sharing stops with the Central from Leyton and Leytonstone onwards. Not sure how they planned having the route link up to the Central Line if it was envisioned as running beneath Coronation Gardens. Appears there was indecision about whether the route from Hackney eastwards to travel towards Leyton or some indirect way to Leytonstone as late as May 2001. - husk.org/www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/7069/tpftla_Chelney.html
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Nov 16, 2019 0:06:01 GMT
Basically some of the Chelney tube schemes proposed the route heading to Leyton via either Homerton or Hackney Wick, while it is likely the former took a more northern route roughly parallel and just south of what became the A12, is it known how close the proposed route between Hackney Wick and Leyton was to travel nearby what became Stratford International (or was the latter envisioned to run closer to Chobham Manor / East Village)?
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Nov 13, 2019 22:18:59 GMT
On the subject of Chelsea-Hackney Tube Line (as opposed to the later mainline proposals which became Crossrail 2), was wondering if someone could clarify whether the proposed routes between Hackney Central / Downs and Leyton was planned to travel anywhere near the site that later became Stratford International or was a more northern route envisioned?
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Aug 9, 2019 17:09:33 GMT
Was wondering if anymore details exist on the unrealised historical 1922 plan for a proposed Bakerloo Line extension to Orpington via Loughborough Junction and Catford (such as additional stops, etc)?
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Aug 10, 2018 23:06:07 GMT
Fair enough, will look to get the book.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Aug 10, 2018 15:02:35 GMT
Thanks for the recommendation. Are the unfulfilled plans mentioned in the book also presented in the form of graphical illustrations, be it maps, diagrams, etc?
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Aug 10, 2018 0:09:54 GMT
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Apr 5, 2018 14:20:27 GMT
Fascinating. My Interest is with regards to any potential extension and separation of the High Street Kensington District branch route (possibility from Wimbledon), though AFIAK it is likely the case the original plan was for the proposed extension to eventually merge with the Circle Line tracks either prior to Notting Hill Gate up to Paddington.
Had the extended route managed to feature separate platforms from the Circle up to roughly around Bayswater, it would have possibly opened up more options on the discussion of separating this District line branch comes up down the road.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Apr 3, 2018 18:48:30 GMT
My bad regarding Geoff Marshall.
It does seem like consideration was given to extending the route northwards.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Apr 3, 2018 17:02:02 GMT
Found this video segment that quickly mentions plans to double up the line north of High Street Kensington though unfortunately little else.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Apr 3, 2018 12:46:48 GMT
I see. Have to wonder how the route from High Street Kensington would have been extended beyond Notting Hill Gate to Edgware Road, unless the route was to share the same tracks with the Circle at some point between Notting Hill Gate and Paddington.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Apr 2, 2018 19:20:44 GMT
Seem to recall reading the two bay platforms at High Street Kensington were originally intended to be through platforms as a result of unrealised plans to extend the High Street Kensington branch northwards.
If indeed the case, interested to know more about this story as it is not clear whether the proposed route was to travel alongside the Edgware Road branch (or perhaps even become a separated version of the Edgware Road branch by no longer sharing the same tracks as the Circle Line) or to follow a different route entirely.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Feb 9, 2018 21:12:06 GMT
Interested to know more about the specifics of the proposed express railway route from King's Cross to the unbuilt Maplin Sands Airport. - www.ukprogressive.co.uk/london-airports-the-maplin-story/article17033.htmlThe only references online regarding the King's Cross route seem to suggest it was to start at a new dedicated station on the goods yard site at King's Cross through the Copenhagen tunnel onto the Goblin and then somehow from Walthamstow onwards traveling along the proposed M12 motorway towards the airport, the small map in the link above claims the route would also go through Brentwood, Billericay, Wickford and Hockley.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Jan 7, 2018 15:37:08 GMT
The proposal would appear to suggest the new terminus was to be located at or near (albeit beneath) the old Minories railway station possibly using the Tower Hill or Tower Gateway name had it gone through, only this time linking up to the District/Circle Lines with the new station likely replacing the District/Circle Line station at Mark Lane.
|
|
|
Post by rebeltc130 on Jan 4, 2018 23:54:48 GMT
Recently discovered the following link below regarding massive proposed Clock Tower in Stepney (along with other unbuilt London projects), which was part of a series of schemes that amongst other things mentions of a plan for the railway running between Limehouse and Fenchurch Street to be buried underground while a 110 feet wide road called "Stepney Greeting" is built on top. The scheme also planned for Fenchurch Street station to be replaced with a new terminus featuring a direct link to the London Underground, is it known though whether the new terminus would have been located at an existing or new Underground station? www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2015/08/23/unbuilt-london-stepneys-massive-clock-tower
|
|