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Post by brooklynbound on Jul 6, 2020 14:25:44 GMT
The Guardian is reporting...
Johnson says driverless trains should be condition for new funding settlement for Transport for London
Boris Johnson has said that driverless trains should be a condition of the funding settlement for Transport for London this autumn. Speaking during his visit to Goole, and reviving an argument he first started making when he was mayor of London, he said:
You can run these trains without the need for somebody to be sitting in the driver’s cab the whole time.
So what I will be saying to the London transport authority is let’s take advantage of this technological leap forward, let’s not be the prisoners of the unions any more, let’s go to driverless trains, and let’s make that a condition of the funding settlement for Transport for London this autumn.
That’s the way forward for this country and we want to make use of the fantastic technology we’ve got and provide a better service for people in the capital and take the whole economy forward.
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North End
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Post by North End on Jul 6, 2020 14:40:50 GMT
The Guardian is reporting... Johnson says driverless trains should be condition for new funding settlement for Transport for London
Boris Johnson has said that driverless trains should be a condition of the funding settlement for Transport for London this autumn. Speaking during his visit to Goole, and reviving an argument he first started making when he was mayor of London, he said:
You can run these trains without the need for somebody to be sitting in the driver’s cab the whole time.
So what I will be saying to the London transport authority is let’s take advantage of this technological leap forward, let’s not be the prisoners of the unions any more, let’s go to driverless trains, and let’s make that a condition of the funding settlement for Transport for London this autumn.
That’s the way forward for this country and we want to make use of the fantastic technology we’ve got and provide a better service for people in the capital and take the whole economy forward. One wonders whether Mr Johnson will still be in position to do that come the autumn. It’s not like the Covid-19 handling has gone particularly well. |
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Post by Chris W on Jul 6, 2020 15:53:19 GMT
It's important that we all retain a non-partisan approach here re politics.
Update - ASLEF have responsed (also on the Guardian Live update thread - timed at 15:53):
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 6, 2020 16:01:45 GMT
I never take anything the prime minister says too seriously, as he is wont to make quite specific statements about things of which he knows nothing.
What does he expect?
The tfl will agree with him, and driverless trains will be rolled out on all lines over the next few months?
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Post by superteacher on Jul 6, 2020 16:09:22 GMT
Seems that the PM is pushing the policy which he failed to get through as London Mayor. And as Chris W alluded to above, discussion can continue as long as it relates to the policy and not the political opinions of members. If this advice is not followed, the thread will be promptly locked. |
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North End
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Post by North End on Jul 6, 2020 16:49:28 GMT
Seems that the PM is pushing the policy which he failed to get through as London Mayor. I suspect that's exactly the reason, as there's no other rational reason for why this has suddenly appeared on the political agenda, and the clue is that unions were specifically mentioned. Indeed quite why any politician would wish to stir up a hornet's nest at this particular time is completely beyond comprehension. Particularly as at the same time elements of the SSR resignalling have been descoped, and all of this will be *way* beyond our current PM's tenure. It seems it wasn't just the transport sector the PM started on today, care home owners were on the receiving end too. When we have a country where some of the population are scared to leave their homes or pass near others in the street, still many people not back at work, children off school, businesses failing and people losing their jobs, a massive NHS backlog building up, and of course 40,000+ Covid-related deaths, I think anyone would expect driverless trains to be some way near the bottom of the agenda. Clearly not... |
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Post by Chris M on Jul 6, 2020 17:00:44 GMT
Johnson can insist as much as he likes, but unless he is prepared to put a massive amount of money where his mouth is then that's all he will be able to do. Even if he does choose to shake the magic money tree and all the unions give their full and enthusiastic cooperation and the HSE and ORR are completely happy with the physical infrastructure as it is (e.g. regarding PEDs) and Network Rail (and TOCs, etc) are happy with driverless trains running on/adjacent to their infrastructure it would be at least a couple of years before the first driverless train carries passengers on London Underground.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 6, 2020 17:10:04 GMT
Johnson can insist as much as he likes, but unless he is prepared to put a massive amount of money where his mouth is then that's all he will be able to do. Even if he does choose to shake the magic money tree and all the unions give their full and enthusiastic cooperation and the HSE and ORR are completely happy with the physical infrastructure as it is (e.g. regarding PEDs) and Network Rail (and TOCs, etc) are happy with driverless trains running on/adjacent to their infrastructure it would be at least a couple of years before the first driverless train carries passengers on London Underground. With all that is going on with the Covid-19 pandemic, this proposal just seems like an unnecessary distraction. TFL are going to need some serious cash in the short to medium term, and I doubt that there will be an appetite to spend any money on pursuing driverless operation. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 6, 2020 17:27:10 GMT
Do they even have a complete theoretical plan for driverless trains?
Or will 'driverless' trains actually be fully automatic trains with a disguised/renamed driver somewhere on the train to take over in cases of emergency or breakdowns?
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North End
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Post by North End on Jul 6, 2020 17:44:17 GMT
Do they even have a complete theoretical plan for driverless trains? Or will 'driverless' trains actually be fully automatic trains with a disguised/renamed driver somewhere on the train to take over in cases of emergency or breakdowns? For starters, it relies on the Picc Line being resignalled, and that seems to be slipping further and further out of grasp. |
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Post by 35b on Jul 6, 2020 18:20:24 GMT
Do they even have a complete theoretical plan for driverless trains? Or will 'driverless' trains actually be fully automatic trains with a disguised/renamed driver somewhere on the train to take over in cases of emergency or breakdowns? For starters, it relies on the Picc Line being resignalled, and that seems to be slipping further and further out of grasp. Alternatively, the Piccadilly resignalling may be the lever for the policy? As others have said, it’s his policy and some of his City Hall advisors are in No 10. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 6, 2020 18:38:05 GMT
As I've mentioned far too many times before TfL's 2014 feasibility study states "Assessment has determined that physical barriers (e.g. Platform-Edge Doors) would be required to effectively and reliably manage the PTI under fully-automated operation" (page 29). content.tfl.gov.uk/ntfl-feasibility-report.pdfDriverless trains would cost billions, would take years and would require the drivers to agree to drive the new trains until the PEDs were installed Its all complete and utter nonsense from someone who has repeatedly demonstrated his utter ignorance of public transport. |
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Post by londoner on Jul 6, 2020 20:03:27 GMT
I always believed it will happen, but not for at least another 50 years, probably 100 at the earliest. I agree, it doesn't really seem the appropriate time to talk about these things. Instead, perhaps the PM could deliver some much needed funding for more realistic railway projects across, not just the capital, but the UK.
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Post by revupminster on Jul 6, 2020 20:29:39 GMT
The 1993 company plan was an attack on the most expensive grades. At the time was the Station Inspector and Chief Booking Clerks, replacing both with Station Supervisors and multifunctional versions for different locations. A drivers natural progression was to Station Inspector but as more lines went one man it became a pay cut to go to Station inspector or the new Station supervisors.
The train operator became the next target. I don't what the difference in pay between a DLR train captain and LU train operator is. It would not be that difficult to make the trains driverless which in effect they already are. Wasn't, albeit not in passenger service, for trains to operate unmanned between Northumberland Park and Seven Sisters?
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North End
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Post by North End on Jul 6, 2020 21:44:15 GMT
I always believed it will happen, but not for at least another 50 years, probably 100 at the earliest. I agree, it doesn't really seem the appropriate time to talk about these things. Instead, perhaps the PM could deliver some much needed funding for more realistic railway projects across, not just the capital, but the UK. Exactly. And at the same time he could focus on the long list of other issues going on at the moment, that list is long enough! Today’s antics strike me as those of someone who has either completely lost it, or is trying desperately to deflect attention from other things. I am absolutely disgusted that the prime minister, presumably speaking on behalf of the government, has chosen to ignite a game of politics with the mayor (let’s face it that’s what’s really going on here) at a time when the country is in deep trouble on so many fronts. |
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Post by Chris W on Jul 6, 2020 21:57:56 GMT
Ladies / Gents
Perhaps I have triggered this discussion with my ASLEF update post earlier - apologies if I have.  
I have some very firm opinions that I am happy to share elsewhere in the interweb  but David Maloney was firmly of the opinion that this is not the place.
I have been guilty of voicing political frustrations here too - however, please, not here, not today.
Kind regards
Chris W
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North End
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Post by North End on Jul 6, 2020 22:06:47 GMT
For starters, it relies on the Picc Line being resignalled, and that seems to be slipping further and further out of grasp. Alternatively, the Piccadilly resignalling may be the lever for the policy? As others have said, it’s his policy and some of his City Hall advisors are in No 10. You may well be right on this. The recent track record isn’t great though - the SSR resignalling hasn’t exactly panned out as intended, and that story evidently has many more twists to negotiate yet. LU is going to need to focus energy on that, and in ensuring that legacy signalling (and rolling stock) continues to perform reliably. All that is enough to keep a cash-strapped organisation going, without worrying about delivering something politically motivated: |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 6, 2020 23:10:23 GMT
The 1993 company plan was an attack on the most expensive grades. At the time was the Station Inspector and Chief Booking Clerks, replacing both with Station Supervisors and multifunctional versions for different locations. A drivers natural progression was to Station Inspector but as more lines went one man it became a pay cut to go to Station inspector or the new Station supervisors. The train operator became the next target. I don't what the difference in pay between a DLR train captain and LU train operator is. It would not be that difficult to make the trains driverless which in effect they already are. Wasn't, albeit not in passenger service, for trains to operate unmanned between Northumberland Park and Seven Sisters? In 2015 DLR Passenger Service Agents were on £40,097.37, up until March this year TOps were on £55,011.00 There was a plan to have trains drive themselves in and out of Northumberland Park depot but I'm told so far they not managed it without derailing themselves. "It would not be that difficult to make the trains driverless which in effect they already are". Yeah, right... |
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Post by Chris M on Jul 6, 2020 23:49:03 GMT
There was a plan to have trains drive themselves in and out of Northumberland Park depot but I'm told so far they not managed it without derailing themselves. "It would not be that difficult to make the trains driverless which in effect they already are". Yeah, right... from almost exactly a year ago tells of a DLR train that passed two red signals and then derailed on trap points in Beckton Depot. It is (or at least was at the time) rumoured to be a trial of full automatic working in the depot. If the DLR, which is a railway designed from the ground up for automatic working, can have those sorts of issues then only someone very brave or very foolish would bet on the introduction of fully automatic trains on LU being "not that difficult" |
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Post by philthetube on Jul 7, 2020 0:30:04 GMT
without trains operating going unattended there is very little saving to be made, as I understand it none of the current stocks are designed to run without staff on board, you need to be able to remotely operate things like air cocks in case of bursts and do other things remotely.
If you do require staff on board then you are not taking the unions out of anything.
The trouble is that going off the P.M.'s previous record with water cannons and Boris Buses, if he thinks it is a good idea he is likely to try and go with it regardless of whether it is money well spent..
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Post by grumpycat on Jul 7, 2020 2:05:14 GMT
I think PSA's should operate the trains in fairness since the DLR runs fine with psa's do should the new tube for London
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Post by nig on Jul 7, 2020 4:35:57 GMT
I think PSA's should operate the trains in fairness since the DLR runs fine with psa's do should the new tube for London The diffence in size and speed they go is a massive difference it's a bit like saying a 2 year old can drive a battery powered toy car they will be fine driving a petrol powered go cart |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 7, 2020 5:37:34 GMT
I think, given the new trains should serve into the second half of the Century, TfL have always envisaged the possibility of unstaffed operation sometime in the future and could sign an appropriately worded condition. However, Piccadilly resignalling needs money, and completion might be ten years away. In the meantime the economic case for a new way of working needs to be made, to justify costs of modifications to the trains, the new signalling and stations, e.g. platform edge doors and level access. This would then have to compete with the urgent need for replacement trains on the Bakerloo, and maybe elsewhere, the completion of 4LM signalling, Bakerloo & Central line resignalling, etc!
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Post by brigham on Jul 7, 2020 7:55:58 GMT
Note that both articles, the initial report AND the Union response, come from a newspaper with a marked tendency to publish items aimed at discrediting the current prime minister and his party.
The debate isn't about driverless trains; it's about ridiculing Johnson.
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Post by tjw on Jul 7, 2020 8:03:58 GMT
[...] only someone very brave or very foolish would bet on the introduction of fully automatic trains on LU being "not that difficult" Or someone that works for Spacex? I thought landing rockets just like in Tintin was science fiction, but now we regularly (48 times so far) see a rocket 200ft high come in from orbit slowing down from over the speed of sound and land on a barge floating in the ocean. This is all automatic and has no human input. For these guys controlling trains travelling at a few miles an hour held by gravity to rails would be rather simple. The cost is the biggest problem... but I am sure we will see fully automatic trains... eventually! |
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Post by North End on Jul 7, 2020 8:07:55 GMT
Note that both articles, the initial report AND the Union response, come from a newspaper with a marked tendency to publish items aimed at discrediting the current prime minister and his party. The debate isn't about driverless trains; it's about ridiculing Johnson. Be that as it may, but Johnson’s words were on the news yesterday for all to see and hear, so this isn’t something a particular paper has twisted or taken out of context. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 7, 2020 8:51:20 GMT
Note that both articles, the initial report AND the Union response, come from a newspaper with a marked tendency to publish items aimed at discrediting the current prime minister and his party. The debate isn't about driverless trains; it's about ridiculing Johnson. Its in the Daily Telegraph, the Evening Standard, BBC, City AM and Daily Mail |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 7, 2020 9:00:04 GMT
I think PSA's should operate the trains in fairness since the DLR runs fine with psa's do should the new tube for London All DLR platforms are straight so the PSA can see the entire length of the train, the Tube has numerous "Category A" platforms where the whole of the train cannot be seen so need CCTV or two members of staff to ensure safe dispatch. Also where exactly would you suggest a PSA would stand on a packed Tube train at 8am on a Monday morning? |
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Post by jimbo on Jul 7, 2020 9:38:45 GMT
I think PSA's should operate the trains in fairness since the DLR runs fine with psa's do should the new tube for London All DLR platforms are straight so the PSA can see the entire length of the train, the Tube has numerous "Category A" platforms where the whole of the train cannot be seen so need CCTV or two members of staff to ensure safe dispatch. Also where exactly would you suggest a PSA would stand on a packed Tube train at 8am on a Monday morning? In the cab? The rear cab since they are not responsible for the driving! |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 7, 2020 9:46:19 GMT
All DLR platforms are straight so the PSA can see the entire length of the train, the Tube has numerous "Category A" platforms where the whole of the train cannot be seen so need CCTV or two members of staff to ensure safe dispatch. Also where exactly would you suggest a PSA would stand on a packed Tube train at 8am on a Monday morning? In the cab? The rear cab since they are not responsible for the driving! DLR PSAs are required to drive the train manually in certain circumstances If you had a PSA in the rear cab of a Tube train they'd have to make their way to the front every time there was a problem so you might as well have them in the front cab... |
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but David Maloney was firmly of the opinion that this is not the place.
