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Post by ijmad on Jul 21, 2023 8:24:49 GMT
The aircon equipment is also going to be hung on the bottom of the floating cars I think, right?
Not there yet in the photos.
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Post by trt on Jul 21, 2023 8:37:10 GMT
Seems like an awful lot of mass hanging off the articulation points.
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Post by burkitt on Jul 21, 2023 10:49:18 GMT
Is that tiny cab window to view CCTV screen in the tunnel when stopped at a station (when the cab is in the tunnel) ? No, the tiny window is to view the stopping position marker on the platform. There's a similar tiny window on 92, 95 and 96 stock. Platform CCTV will be viewed on in-cab screens. |
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Post by burkitt on Jul 21, 2023 10:53:11 GMT
The entire roof profile, with its vestigial clear-story, must surely be a nod to the Standard Stock of that era. All tube trains with externally-hung sliding doors have had the clerestory-esque roof profile - ie the 1986 prototypes onwards. It tends to be hidden at the car ends because of the single leaf door, but the double-door-only design of the 24TS makes it more prominent. It's also emphasised by the styling of the cab-front destination indicator on the 09TS. |
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Post by trt on Jul 21, 2023 10:58:05 GMT
Looks even smaller than the sighting windows on the older stock, though. Would that have an implication for differently sized drivers e.g. women?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 21, 2023 11:01:09 GMT
modern trains are designed to have an optimal sighting postion of seat, backrest, footrest etc for multiple sizes of driver.
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Post by roverlei on Jul 21, 2023 11:25:43 GMT
Here's another picture that shows the whole thing: I seriously love the humour in the Twitter post, "Subject to funding"! The poster clearly understands how our central government works. |
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Post by t697 on Jul 21, 2023 15:26:49 GMT
The inside framed bogies and the blue of the bodyside not going as low as the floor at the doorways gives it a rather tip-toed look at the moment. I guess we'll get used to it.
On a more careful look at the photo I think the body side has a tuck inwards towards the bottom of the blue area. Trick of the light.
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Post by 100andthirty on Jul 21, 2023 16:10:24 GMT
I reckon it's been raised for the journey - perhaps to fix a some gauging issue to allow the transit to Wildenrath. The coupler looks much higher than we'd normally expect.
Also, if you look closely the M door is missing and a blank panel is fitted that's got an air hose running thogu it
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Post by d7666 on Jul 21, 2023 19:45:02 GMT
]The entire roof profile, with its vestigal clear-story, must surely be a nod to the Standard Stock of that era. The psuedo-clerestory roof is on 1992 1995 1996 and 2009 stock i.e. all those that have externally hung doors. |
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Post by joshua on Jul 22, 2023 12:51:37 GMT
Sorry if it has already been asked but what is the reason for not going for Jacobs bogies on the NTFL stock? Also what is the floor height on the new trains vs the ones they replace?
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Post by burkitt on Jul 22, 2023 14:00:55 GMT
This article from Rail Engineer gives a good explanation of the 24TS design: www.railengineer.co.uk/piccadilly-line-trains-a-journey-from-1891-to-2025/?ampTo quote: "LU’s early work showed that the typical articulation where the centre of the bogie is under the joint between the vehicles is not suitable for tube trains. To fit a bogie with the vehicle-vehicle coupling above it, the floor of the gangway above that and still achieve enough headroom in the gangway would be extremely difficult. Also, articulated bogies (known as Jacobs bogies) often have a longer wheelbase than their non-articulated siblings. A longer wheelbase makes it hard to improve curving/track-friendliness and the opposite of the ambition to reduce the wheelbase below the usual 1.9m." |
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Post by burkitt on Jul 22, 2023 14:02:42 GMT
And floor height is 720mm I believe.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 22, 2023 16:03:04 GMT
700mm on the 2024TS vs 725mm on the 73TS
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Post by bigvern on Jul 23, 2023 15:58:17 GMT
Formations - This is what is understood but not confirmed:-
94 Trains to be built (70 Trains plus 24 DeIcing Trains)
Looking at the photos formations are numbered I think as: (This is Train 71 probabaly a Deicing fitted train for type testing)
DM car - Intermediate - Motor Car 1 - Intermediate - Motor Car 2 - Intermediate - Motor Car 1 - Intermediate - DM Car
38xxx - 39xxx - 40xxx - 41xxx - 42xxx - ** - **- 45xxx - 46xxx - 47xxx - 48xxx
**(43xxx Intermediate & 44xxx Motor Car 1 for Central Line to make 11 car trains)
Leading Bogie on DM cars is unpowered (Trailer) but has shoegear, The trailing DM bogie & all MC1 motored bogies have shoegear, Traction Equipment is carried on the intermediate cars and powers one motor bogie of each adjacent Motor car. so on a 9 car train 8 bogies are motored and 2 not. - The DM cars have Compressors fitted, Motor Car 2 has Deicing / Track Monitoring / Rail Lubrication equipment as required. All cars have Heat & Vent equipment. MC2 do not have shoegear.
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Jul 24, 2023 0:53:22 GMT
So the Waterloo & City 5-car trains must have a combined Motor Car 1 & 2 in the middle position!
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Post by bigvern on Jul 24, 2023 6:19:53 GMT
So the Waterloo & City 5-car trains must have a combined Motor Car 1 & 2 in the middle position! Yes, unsure of what exact equipment will be needed, but traction is from the intermediate cars feeding the MC, a MC2 may suffice. Or maybe a hybrid MC1/2. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 1, 2023 8:07:25 GMT
Click here if tweet fails to appear |
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Aug 2, 2023 3:40:04 GMT
Looking along the train, it appears that the bogies on the middle car do not carry shoe gear, which stands out as a light coloured attachment on the other bogies. The motors are fed from the wheel-less intermediate cars, which are themselves connected to traction current from the intermediate motor cars.
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Post by brigham on Aug 2, 2023 7:26:56 GMT
So the traction current passes through a jumper from the shoes to the wheel-less car, through the controller, then back to the bogie car through a jumper, then through the motors?
Sir Charles Dennistoun Burney is alive and well!
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Post by t697 on Aug 2, 2023 15:19:44 GMT
I wasn't sure what the Burney reference alludes to.
Anyway though, there is precedent for fault rated circuit breaker protected high power, highish voltage cables between cars with Central line 92TS. There the 'B' cars' motors are fed from the coupled shoegear car and the motor field circuit goes around all 8 motors on the two cars.
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Post by 100andthirty on Aug 2, 2023 17:38:34 GMT
Looking along the train, it appears that the bogies on the middle car do not carry shoe gear, which stands out as a light coloured attachment on the other bogies. The motors are fed from the wheel-less intermediate cars, which are themselves connected to traction current from the intermediate motor cars. From what I can see in the photos, I reckon the feeding arrangements are like this: Shoes on car 1 feed the traction packages on car 2. These traction packages feed the motors on car 1 and the outer bogie on car 3. Shoes on car 3 feed the traction packages on car 4. These traction packages feed the inner bogie on car 3 and the bogie on car 5 adjcent to car 3. For cars 9 down to 5 its a mirror image of the above. And, as far as I know each traction motor has its own inverter. |
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Post by brigham on Aug 3, 2023 7:53:19 GMT
I'm not personally against traction-voltage bus lines and jumpers. I just had the impression that LU was.
Dennistoun Burney became famous for complicated solutions to basic engineering problems, such as placing the clutch and gearbox at opposite sides of the engine.
He designed the famous Streamline car favoured by Edward, Prince of Wales. He worked alongside Barnes Wallis and Nevil Shute Norway on the R100 at Howden.
A brilliant man, in my view.
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Aug 3, 2023 7:55:54 GMT
I note that the thin blue line is missing from the cab door! Oversight? It was there on the publicity artist impression. I don't think this innovation adds anything to the train's appearance. Just another cost to install, and maintain with wear and tear.
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Post by 100andthirty on Aug 3, 2023 11:42:34 GMT
I'm not personally against traction-voltage bus lines and jumpers. I just had he impression that LU was. Dennistoun Burney became famous for complicated solutions to basic engineering problems, such as placing the clutch and gearbox at opposite sides of the engine. He designed the famous Streamline car favoured by Edward, Prince of Wales. He worked alongside Barnes Wallis and Nevil Shute Norway on the R100 ad Howden. A brilliant man, in my view. LU has had an aversion to what are known as 'power bus lines' where a cable or cables connect all the shoes together in a unit. I believe this requirement stems from some nasty fires a very long time ago. But all trains at least from 1938 tube stock onwards have sent 600V feeds between cars. But the critical difference is that the power bus line is effectively un fused whereas all the applications that have been discussed here have some sort of fuse or circuit breaker protecting the high voltage feed. |
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Post by t697 on Aug 3, 2023 15:32:45 GMT
And since this might drift on to shoe fuses on bus-lined arrangements, there are several analyses that show it's difficult or impossible to provide proper discrimination between fault and non-fault current scenarios.
I understand the Burney mention now - clutch and gearbox at opposite ends being the key one I guess. Helped with weight distribution or something like that I guess.
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Post by d7666 on Aug 3, 2023 16:31:42 GMT
I'm not personally against traction-voltage bus lines and jumpers. I just had he impression that LU was. Dennistoun Burney became famous for complicated solutions to basic engineering problems, such as placing the clutch and gearbox at opposite sides of the engine. He designed the famous Streamline car favoured by Edward, Prince of Wales. He worked alongside Barnes Wallis and Nevil Shute Norway on the R100 ad Howden. A brilliant man, in my view. LU has had an aversion to what are known as 'power bus lines' where a cable or cables connect all the shoes together in a unit. I believe this requirement stems from some nasty fires a very long time ago. But all trains at least from 1938 tube stock onwards have sent 600V feeds between cars. But the critical difference is that the power bus line is effectively un fused whereas all the applications that have been discussed here have some sort of fuse or circuit breaker protecting the high voltage feed. IIMU it was/is not just an "LU aversion" but a legal regulation connected with (?)single bore tunnels(?); primarily arose after an incident overseas (Paris ?); and that the regulations permit one jump between a pair of cars, but not to daisy chain pairs together, fused or not. This applied to main line too: e.g. 313s for they were designed first for Northern City (single bore tube tunnels) into Moorgate and the whole lot were so deployed (apart from their one time minor escape to Clacton); they were formed MTM; on DC there is no 750 V bus between the two M cars which is why they were inclined to feel a little jerky as each M car cut out and in over each section gap; on AC - never in tube tunnel - the M cars are connected because the traction transformer was on the T car. The 313s that later moved over for NLL and Euston DC work were modified, they had no work through single bore tube tunnels so could have a bus between the two M cars; that odd one that returned to GN in more recent times simply ran modified but with the jumpers removed. I'm not sure how the Mersey 507/508 fit in this; I suspect they too follow the no bus rule because of the tube tunnels. I have a suspicion there is some kind of auto bus disconnection on 378s on DC somewhere; or maybe not connected on DC at all; 378s are MMTMM; I think I have seen somewhere they are different to other Electrostars in that on DC only each MM is bus connected, and the two MMs are not interconnected. On a 377, taking 5car version for example, the DC traction bus (TPL (traction power line)) is connected to all cars. ((There are of course further difference between 378s and 37x e.g. 378 are BoA1 on each motor coach 37x are Bo2 but that is not relevant here.)) |
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Post by pgb on Aug 4, 2023 5:53:40 GMT
Dennistoun Burney became famous for complicated solutions to basic engineering problems, Think I know several people who are related to him judging by some of the stuff they come up with! |
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 4, 2023 10:59:54 GMT
The 313s that later moved over for NLL and Euston DC work were modified, they had no work through single bore tube tunnels so could have a bus between the two M cars; that odd one that returned to GN in more recent times simply ran modified but with the jumpers removed. The tunnels just north of Kensal Green look like single bore tube train tunnels!   Also between Euston / Primrose Hill and South Hampstead there are some single bore tunnels. |
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Post by d7666 on Aug 5, 2023 16:55:08 GMT
The 313s that later moved over for NLL and Euston DC work were modified, they had no work through single bore tube tunnels so could have a bus between the two M cars; that odd one that returned to GN in more recent times simply ran modified but with the jumpers removed. The tunnels just north of Kensal Green look like single bore tube train tunnels! Also between Euston / Primrose Hill and South Hampstead there are some single bore tunnels. I had a feeling someone was going to come up with this one. As with all of these things there is no exact black and white case - there are always multiple shades of grey areas. There was a discussion long ago about the the Euston DC 313s in this respect on another forum (uk.railway on usenet IIRC). But I can't remember what it said nor find it. For all I know (guess) 313s had a disconnection switch added. The general subject is a little more complex that /just/ single bore tunnels and nothing else, IIRC the length of the unit, etc, comes into it. There are other single bore tunnels on main lines - a nearby example is on ECML either side of New Southgate (Wood Green tunnels and Barnet tunnels on the outer slow lines ; the two (centre) fast lines are in a double bore tunnel). There is no restriction on those tunnels either in this respect. There will be other examples, there is no need for anyone to list them  . Digressing a little, just to demonstrate what a fickle matter single bore tunnel restrictions are, 365s based at Hornsey working from Kings Cross were permitted through the above tunnels in 4 or 8 or 12 car formations despite single bores and that 365s had no through gangways between units impeding emergency egress. Yet, 365s based at Ramsgate for Kent services were banned (and 465s still are banned) between Folkestone and Dover exactly because of single bore tunnels and no through gangways between units impeding emergency egress. This proving shades of grey. So, whatever the 313s case was on the Euston DC lines it was different to the Northern City lines, and a photograph of the tunnel portals will not prove the matter either way.  It occurs to me I do not know what the arrangements are on 345s in this respect. A 345 is MMMMTMMMM (2bo-bo2-bobo-bo2-22-2bo-bobo-2bo-bo2). The pantographs (and transformers I think) are in the 2nd and 8th cars. Either side of the centre T car, the 1st-4th and 6th-9th cars are not traction current interconnected AFAIK (there are of course low voltage control and auxiliary connections) and in effect are two independant 4car units permanently coupled and in multiple with each other with a trailer in between. How, or even if they do, sectionalise traction bus (HVDC link) within each 4car bit w.r.t. earlier legislation I do not know. Maybe insulation technology has moved on to allow it ? Or fire and evacuation precautions in general mitigate the risk. No idea. Dies anyone know for sure ? 717s also I do not know how it works on DC on the Northern City. 717s are MTTMTM. Ditto does anyone know for sure ? 700s - related to 717s - are similar to 345s, they too are two seperate 6 (or 4) half units permanently coupled and in multiple with each other as 12 or 8 car trains. But they don't have single bore tunnel to deal with in this respect, AC or DC, in the traditonal Thameslink core, but do have the above ECML tunnels. |
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