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Post by notverydeep on Aug 17, 2020 17:13:24 GMT
Does train crew cost really vary directly with service km in all cases? If it takes 3 crews to operate a 20 minute interval service on a given branch it might still take 2 crews to operate an hourly service. If you are still running a 20 minute service in the peaks, then you probably still need at least 6 crews to operate the branch over the day (3 early, 3 late) so you haven't gained anything by having them sit in a messroom rather than work a train. Sorry, you are correct, the link isn't exactly linear. Plus I should really have said train hours, but thought train kms would be more readily understood. As a rule of thumb, if a train is in service for an hour, it will need to be attended by a driver for an hour, even while laying over at the terminus. If the train is in service for 20 hours a day, these 20 hours of driver time will clearly come from several different shifts. There is then a ratio of around 2 to 1 to convert train hours into driver hours required to account for all the non-driving parts of the job, such as breaks, margins added to shifts for late running, walking time, time getting trains ready, annual leave and training etc. Some operational processes, such as stepping back add driver time too; if the driver steps back two trains at a terminus, then two driver hours are added per hour of stepping back operation. While there will be other small step changes (for example 5 extra drivers might be accomodated within the existing number of driver managers, but 10 would require an extra driver manager), overall, at the scale of a metro option there will be a near enough linear relationship between train hours and train crew cost. Crew and power / fuel are the 'inputs' where this is most true, whereas other cost elements have differing fixed compoments...
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Post by stapler on Aug 17, 2020 20:46:44 GMT
Aslefshrugged, I've never in recent years known a civil servant travel in 1st Class. Public service salaries don't run to that. I was entitled for 33 years to 1st class travel, and used it once, when in the company of a journalist on expenses. It's the private sector fatcats who keep 1st class alive.
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Post by stapler on Aug 17, 2020 20:54:39 GMT
What i still find bizzare is the level of off peak service provided on some lines. For example if tfl need to cut back to save on costs is the following really needed? Harrow to Moor park - 8tph!!! - This wasn't even needed pre covid - reduce to 6tph - 2 Amersham, 2 Chesham, 2 Watford? - Consider reversal at Harrow for any additional trains Harrow to Uxbridge - 8tph might again be pushing it - you also have the Piccadilly so some part of this too - Reduce to 6tph West Ruislip - Northolt - 9tph is a serious over provision! Reduce to 6tph surely? Epping - Can more trains be terminated short e.g debden/woodford? Stanmore branch - The provision to stanmore is already massive, can more trains stop at wembley/willesden? Up minister - Is there scope to terminate more District trains short of this? Mill Hill East - Reduce to 3tph? Off peak service frequencies do not need to be anywhere close to full to be worth operating / cover their costs. There is a good deal of misunderstanding among both rail enthusiasts and railway staff of the purpose of high frequency off peak services and what frequency is worth operating. It seems to be widely assumed that the correct frequency is the minimum number of services that will carry the expected passenger load. However, if this were the case there would be some UK rail routes that would need only daily or less than daily services (as some Amtrak routes in the US). Having a frequent service is desirable because it increases opportunity to travel and reduces time spent waiting, either at the origin or the destination. People seek to arrive at a target time that does not require time to be wasted, for example by arriving much earlier than their ideal time or appointment, aside from whatever margin a passenger adds for possible delay. On the least frequent National Rail lines, such as those to the far north of Scotland or Middlesborough to Whitby, some people will have to travel many hours earlier than they need or even the day before. This makes the service much less attractive than road travel, where the opportunity to travel is always available (though of course such journeys will still have their own margins for disruption). On a suburban London rail route with an off peak service of2 trains per hour (tph) - as many still are, it might mean having to get to the destination 25 minutes before you need, as the next service would get the passenger to their destination 5 minutes too late. On frequent (turn up and go) Metro services (such as the examples in your post) this time is effectively the extra ‘waiting time’ at the station that is added at the start of the journey to allow enough time for the longest gap between trains. All of this extra wasted time is part of what is known as the ‘generalised cost’ of rail travel and the more of it there is, the less likely people are to make extra journeys, so lower frequency services are less attractive and get fewer passengers. The other key point that makes higher off peak frequencies sensible concerns the cost of operation. Trains and the infrastructure they need are very expensive buy (high fixed costs), but fairly cheap to run (low variable costs). This means that it is worthwhile operating trains that attract enough extra passengers to cover their variable costs and make a contribution towards the fixed costs. The costs of the crew and the power / fuel do vary directly with the amount of service kilometres operated, but even train and track maintenance is only partly variable. Other maintenance, such as signalling hardly varies at all with service volume; after all you need the signalling system to be functioning even to operate the first two trains. Thus the variable per kilometre cost of running a typical metro train is around the same as a licensed taxi fare. A typical metro journey from terminus to terminus will break even on its variable costs even with as few as 30 passengers at its busiest point. Population growth has led to increased traffic across the whole of London at all times, but [non crisis] off peak traffic has grown by a greater proportion than peak traffic and lines across London whose off peak services have been increased have mostly seen far greater growth. In the current crisis, high off peak services are allowing more passengers to make journeys while being able to maintain a good level of social distancing and as demand begins to recover across the rail network, even if it takes some years to return to its previous levels, companies will need to be wary of service cuts – they may find that with less attractive services, their revenue falls to a greater degree than their costs. Previous rounds of rail cuts have amply demonstrated that it is hard to escape the spiral of decline and that there is no profitable trunk waiting to be revealed by simply pruning a few loss making branches… I like te idea of "Up minister"! More terminators at Debden/Woodford. No, unless the second turnback siding removed c1985 at Debden is reinstated, or you knock Woodford down and start afresh (doubtless under a 15-storey block) Any TFL executive who lived at Chigwell would need a brain transplant (all right, Aslefshrugged, QED, you'd say)
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Post by countryman on Aug 18, 2020 16:58:50 GMT
Not strictly on topic, but my daughter has told me about a reported incident in France. Apparently a passenger was not wearing a mask. He was asked to wear one and refused. He was fined 15 Euros. Then he was asked if he would wear a mask. He again refused, so they stopped the train in the middle of nowhere and made him get off. Wouldn't happen here due to H & S and the furore if something then happened to him.
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Post by brigham on Aug 18, 2020 17:16:19 GMT
Glad I don't live in a police state like France!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 18, 2020 17:24:47 GMT
Not strictly on topic, but my daughter has told me about a reported incident in France. Apparently a passenger was not wearing a mask. He was asked to wear one and refused. He was fined 15 Euros. Then he was asked if he would wear a mask. He again refused, so they stopped the train in the middle of nowhere and made him get off. Wouldn't happen here due to H & S and the furore if something then happened to him. A quick Google reveals that it wasn't quite like that, it was the Paris-Nice TGV, it wasn't meant to stop until Marseilles but it made an unscheduled stop at Gare du Creusot to eject the passenger. Le Creusot is a town of 21k, about the size of Berkhampstead, Stowmarket or Kenilworth with other TGV services so "middle of nowhere" is a bit of an exaggeration.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 18, 2020 18:12:56 GMT
Glad I don't live in a police state like France! A country insisting people obey the law and do not risk the lives of others does not mean that said country is a police state. I’m pretty sick of seeing the majority of people behaving in a considerate and responsible manner and a few getting away with risking everybody else’s health.
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Post by countryman on Aug 18, 2020 18:52:51 GMT
Not strictly on topic, but my daughter has told me about a reported incident in France. Apparently a passenger was not wearing a mask. He was asked to wear one and refused. He was fined 15 Euros. Then he was asked if he would wear a mask. He again refused, so they stopped the train in the middle of nowhere and made him get off. Wouldn't happen here due to H & S and the furore if something then happened to him. A quick Google reveals that it wasn't quite like that, it was the Paris-Nice TGV, it wasn't meant to stop until Marseilles but it made an unscheduled stop at Gare du Creusot to eject the passenger. Le Creusot is a town of 21k, about the size of Berkhampstead, Stowmarket or Kenilworth with other TGV services so "middle of nowhere" is a bit of an exaggeration. Thanks for clarification. Just quoted what my daughter told me! Chinese whispers! Nevertheless, it must have been very inconvenient for the passenger. I wonder if he thought it was worth it.
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Post by Chris W on Aug 18, 2020 20:56:16 GMT
Thanks for clarification. Just quoted what my daughter told me! Chinese whispers! Nevertheless, it must have been very inconvenient for the passenger. I wonder if he thought it was worth it. Sadly, that is the danger of the internet/'twittersphere' (I have seen similar posts this evening using text of ' Driver stops in the middle of nowhere and they kick him off') where rumours become fact with little evidence....
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 18, 2020 23:56:42 GMT
Except that in the last few months many in the private sector have had the conversations along the lines of "would you like redundancy or a significant paycut and reduced working week?", if not their employers collapsing... I think in the face of many being made jobless and having pay cuts unions might have a harder time keeping the public on side that their members deserve better than everyone else - even though I agree that is the job of a union to do! Most of the railways are private sector and I've not heard of suggestions of redundancies, pay cuts or reduced working week on Thameslink, Southern or even London Overground. If anything the privatised TOCs have been getting far more generous handouts from the government than TfL.
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Post by revupminster on Aug 19, 2020 5:37:13 GMT
The customer has voted, with their feet, and left public transport and retail in dire straits. What is there to go London for? How long can service levels be maintained? I said in an earlier post, the underground has been put back 40 years.
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Post by brigham on Aug 19, 2020 7:27:05 GMT
Glad I don't live in a police state like France! A country insisting people obey the law and do not risk the lives of others does not mean that said country is a police state. I’m pretty sick of seeing the majority of people behaving in a considerate and responsible manner and a few getting away with risking everybody else’s health. Quite true; a country insisting on civil obedience is not necessarily a police state. Only if the police are also the judiciary does it become one. Like France, for instance. I too was sickened when groups of ten thousand were racing around in city centres, at a time when decent, responsible folk didn't even invite their next-door neighbours to a barbeque. I have to agree with you on that one.
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Post by brigham on Aug 19, 2020 7:37:22 GMT
The customer has voted, with their feet, and left public transport and retail in dire straits. What is there to go London for? How long can service levels be maintained? I said in an earlier post, the underground has been put back 40 years. Err... I can't find that post...
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Post by revupminster on Aug 19, 2020 8:43:44 GMT
The customer has voted, with their feet, and left public transport and retail in dire straits. What is there to go London for? How long can service levels be maintained? I said in an earlier post, the underground has been put back 40 years. Err... I can't find that post... Post August 17 I said 20 years but seeing all the jobs going elsewhere I am more pessimistic. Actually I might go 50 years to 1970 and the takeover by the GLC when there were staff shortages, 12 minute Sunday service to Upminster, 24 mins to the branches.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 19, 2020 11:28:25 GMT
The Underground will recover a lot more quickly than some of the pessimistic suggestions on here. 2 years from now and you will wonder what the fuss was all about.
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 19, 2020 13:03:22 GMT
Recent analysis shows that by certain statistical measures, the economic “heart” of the capital in terms of activity has shifted outwards to areas including Southall and East Ham. Indeed having been around Inner London and parts of suburbia, pockets do feel as busy as they were before and there’s no way the road network is soaking up all of that demand. Link to article from Centre for London here. I do hope that there will be a greater emphasis on tackling the "I'm driving because I think it's safer" brigade head on. Large scale studies in France, Japan and South Korea are reaffirming the nominal level of risk when using rapid transit although I don't know what the narrative over travel has been in said countries.
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Post by brigham on Aug 20, 2020 7:36:58 GMT
I'm not sure if the '"I'm driving because I think it's safer" brigade' is a group which needs 'tackling'. It's a phenomenon linked to the current virus situation, and will disappear as soon as taking the car becomes more difficult than taking the train. Here in the North, we drive because we like the easy, door-to-door transport that the motor-car provides. If the road traffic situation were to deteriorate to the extent that it has in Central London, we would doubtless think differently; although for most people, no practical alternative to motoring is available.
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Post by 35b on Aug 20, 2020 11:10:19 GMT
I'm not sure if the '"I'm driving because I think it's safer" brigade' is a group which needs 'tackling'. It's a phenomenon linked to the current virus situation, and will disappear as soon as taking the car becomes more difficult than taking the train. Here in the North, we drive because we like the easy, door-to-door transport that the motor-car provides. If the road traffic situation were to deteriorate to the extent that it has in Central London, we would doubtless think differently; although for most people, no practical alternative to motoring is available. It’s not the driving brigade that need tackling, but the work from home/shop online brigade. If they don’t return, then the base of demand and fares will stay permanently lower.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 20, 2020 11:24:24 GMT
I expect working from home to be more common than it was pre-Covid, although I think a lot of workers actually miss being in the office and seeing colleagues / friends. It may be a case of 4 days in the office, 1 day working from home. A lot of bosses are very uncomfortable with staff working from home for extended periods.
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Post by North End on Aug 20, 2020 12:03:50 GMT
I'm not sure if the '"I'm driving because I think it's safer" brigade' is a group which needs 'tackling'. It's a phenomenon linked to the current virus situation, and will disappear as soon as taking the car becomes more difficult than taking the train. Here in the North, we drive because we like the easy, door-to-door transport that the motor-car provides. If the road traffic situation were to deteriorate to the extent that it has in Central London, we would doubtless think differently; although for most people, no practical alternative to motoring is available. It’s not the driving brigade that need tackling, but the work from home/shop online brigade. If they don’t return, then the base of demand and fares will stay permanently lower. I think working from home will go as quickly as it came. There’s only so many times people will get caught out answering the phone with beach noises in the background! When the current fear factor has gone, which one way or it other it will have to, I think many elements of normality will recover quicker than people think. Just that we won’t then be able to afford things like Holborn congestion relief!
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Post by stapler on Aug 20, 2020 12:09:08 GMT
I expect working from home to be more common than it was pre-Covid, although I think a lot of workers actually miss being in the office and seeing colleagues / friends. It may be a case of 4 days in the office, 1 day working from home. A lot of bosses are very uncomfortable with staff working from home for extended periods. More like 4 days at home, 1 day in an office, I'd say, with hot desking. The economics stare you in the face. As for shopping, nine times out of ten online is more convenient...
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Post by 35b on Aug 20, 2020 12:25:09 GMT
It’s not the driving brigade that need tackling, but the work from home/shop online brigade. If they don’t return, then the base of demand and fares will stay permanently lower. I think working from home will go as quickly as it came. There’s only so many times people will get caught out answering the phone with beach noises in the background! When the current fear factor has gone, which one way or it other it will have to, I think many elements of normality will recover quicker than people think. Just that we won’t then be able to afford things like Holborn congestion relief! I think it’ll vary, but as I was working 3 days/week previously...
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Post by jimbo on Aug 20, 2020 12:26:25 GMT
Recent analysis shows that by certain statistical measures, the economic “heart” of the capital in terms of activity has shifted outwards to areas including Southall and East Ham. Indeed having been around Inner London and parts of suburbia, pockets do feel as busy as they were before and there’s no way the road network is soaking up all of that demand. Link to article from Centre for London here. I do hope that there will be a greater emphasis on tackling the "I'm driving because I think it's safer" brigade head on. Large scale studies in France, Japan and South Korea are reaffirming the nominal level of risk when using rapid transit although I don't know what the narrative over travel has been in said countries. The article says that only half are back at work, but car trips are almost back to normal. As the other half start to return, they will have to find other means as the roads will be full. Cycling is already above pre-Covid levels. What is left but the trains!
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Post by Chris M on Aug 20, 2020 12:56:46 GMT
The article says that only half are back at work, but car trips are almost back to normal. As the other half start to return, they will have to find other means as the roads will be full. Cycling is already above pre-Covid levels. What is left but the trains! I know this forum doesn't 'do' buses, but they do exist! Trams also, although they have a rather more limited geographic coverage than would be the case in an ideal world.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 20, 2020 12:59:15 GMT
I expect working from home to be more common than it was pre-Covid, although I think a lot of workers actually miss being in the office and seeing colleagues / friends. It may be a case of 4 days in the office, 1 day working from home. A lot of bosses are very uncomfortable with staff working from home for extended periods. More like 4 days at home, 1 day in an office, I'd say, with hot desking. The economics stare you in the face. As for shopping, nine times out of ten online is more convenient... I can see very few companies allowing a 4:1 ratio of home to workplace!
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Post by Red Dragon on Aug 20, 2020 13:24:46 GMT
I know I missed the office air con during the hot weather. And a lot of people are working from home as it is exceptional circumstances. A lot of people aren't going to tolerate working from the bedroom of their flat or working with kids running everywhere in the long term.
The railways (TfL and BR) need to get part-time season tickets sorted out asap if they want people to go back to public transport.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 20, 2020 13:43:29 GMT
I would also suggest that one’s usual level of productivity at home is less than when based in a workplace. I have sometimes decided to do admin tasks by working from home - and it’s far more difficult than when I’m in school. Far too many distractions.
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Post by johnlinford on Aug 20, 2020 14:18:50 GMT
I disagree on things being harder from home - but this varies hugely by job. Some things in my line of work require being on site; if I'm working on something detailed for a project and don't want interrupting I'm much more productive at home. When some of my colleagues required help with quoting for clients etc I'm much more productive in the office where I can have my ear bent.
I suspect 3in/2out will become the norm (and they won't be Monday and Friday!) as I know several small businesses in my sector were already heading that way. As it was I was usually 2 days a week in client meetings and/or from home, one on client site and 2 in the office but I know my situation is a little unique!
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Post by peterc on Aug 20, 2020 14:31:57 GMT
I disagree on things being harder from home - but this varies hugely by job. Some things in my line of work require being on site; if I'm working on something detailed for a project and don't want interrupting I'm much more productive at home. When some of my colleagues required help with quoting for clients etc I'm much more productive in the office where I can have my ear bent. That is very much how I found home working. Boring routine jobs were the worst, it could take a serious effort of will, which wasn't always there, to avoid distraction. Once the fuss is over I suspect that presenteeism will rear its head in a lot of offices again and home working will end up being less common that people are anticipating.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 20, 2020 15:22:25 GMT
I think there will be a huge variation, depending on role, workplace environment, company policy, home environment and personal preference. My partner really dislikes working from home as there are large parts of her job she can't do, there are many distractions and her desk really isn't big enough (not that there is space for a bigger one).
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