jimbo
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Post by jimbo on May 23, 2020 4:19:26 GMT
With the return to working timetables, what is happening to the Picc T4 trains? We were told above that the shuttle service was officially working empty around the loop, but in practice was being diverted to T5 except if blocking back. With expected slow return to air travel, T4 closure could be a long-term thing I presume.
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Post by PiccNT on May 23, 2020 11:29:50 GMT
All T4 trains tip out at Hatton Cross, run around the loop empty and wait at T4 until our booked departure time. As we are working the normal WTT, if T4 trains got diverted to T5, this would cause issues with trains running late/out of turn with the additional problem of drivers being relieved late and short meal reliefs etc.
And yes, the T4 closure could well be going on for quite a time. And it's certainly not worth bolstering up the T5 service and there's hardly anyone going or coming from there.
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Post by nig on May 23, 2020 11:31:18 GMT
With the return to working timetables, what is happening to the Picc T4 trains? We were told above that the shuttle service was officially working empty around the loop, but in practice was being diverted to T5 except if blocking back. With expected slow return to air travel, T4 closure could be a long-term thing I presume. All T4 trains are detraining at hatton cross now with help from station staff and taking stand time at T4 edit just seen another post written same time
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Post by PiccNT on May 23, 2020 11:38:09 GMT
The peak is 2-3 hours out of shift that can last up to 8 hours, that still leaves 3-5 hours of driving during the off peak. Cutting the number of trains during the off peak doesn't result in more drivers available for the peak, it just means you have loads of drivers sitting around the depot not driving trains.
I don’t see why it wouldn’t be possible to push some of the middle turns (which don’t really contribute much to either peak) either forwards or backwards, plus reduce the number of dead late duties. Likewise a heavily reduced service at weekends with more MF duties (which would presumably go down well with crews given how many hate working weekends). Difficult choices for sure, however sooner or later there’s going to have to be a massive push to get as many people as possible back to work, although of course the schools situation is another major roadblock to achieving this. Some lines are still experiencing massive numbers of cancellations. It’s no good to anyone limping along in that way. We don't have middle turns at Cockfosters during the week. We have no book on after 07:57 until 15:18. From what I see, it's only the morning peak that needs the maximum service and the evening is more widely spread in terms of punters travelling home. It is not difficult for our line to manage the normal WTT as we run in normal times with loads of ONA's that everyone in the control room and train crew managers are well used to dealing with stacks of cancellations! This weekend and Bank Holiday Monday we are running our normal WTT. It's bad enough during the week following the train ahead with 3 people on board, may well be even fewer over the next three days. I really can't see the point of running the full service, minus the normal cancellations on this Bank Holiday but what do I know!
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Post by goldenarrow on May 23, 2020 15:30:36 GMT
The latest batch of forecasts done by HAL themselves suggest that even on an optimistic trajectory, Terminal 4 may be surplus to requirements till Spring 2021.
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Post by MoreToJack on May 23, 2020 22:35:27 GMT
Met line running with significant cancellations the last few days. Back to a special (a brand new version!) tomorrow, with Monday's service still TBC.
No Circle service all weekend (has been running a circular service all week), H&C running 15 minute headways.
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on May 23, 2020 23:36:54 GMT
The latest batch of forecasts done by HAL themselves suggest that even on an optimistic trajectory, Terminal 4 may be surplus to requirements till Spring 2021. And a worst case? Perhaps T4 current buildings needed no further?
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Post by goldenarrow on May 24, 2020 10:39:46 GMT
The latest batch of forecasts done by HAL themselves suggest that even on an optimistic trajectory, Terminal 4 may be surplus to requirements till Spring 2021. And a worst case? Perhaps T4 current buildings needed no further? Unlikely to be that drastic, most airlines at LHR seem to be of one voice that passenger traffic will return to pre-Covid levels by 2023. I suspect the reasons T4's demotion to a stabling facility besides collapsed demand was that social distancing is impossible with such a small terminal so as long as that is required T4 will remain unusable.
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Post by countryman on May 24, 2020 12:47:50 GMT
And a worst case? Perhaps T4 current buildings needed no further? Unlikely to be that drastic, most airlines at LHR seem to be of one voice that passenger traffic will return to pre-Covid levels by 2023. I suspect the reasons T4's demotion to a stabling facility besides collapsed demand was that social distancing is impossible with such a small terminal so as long as that is required T4 will remain unusable. This is the best terminal to be out of use as airplane access to the terminal conflicts with the take-offs and landings on runway 09R-27L (not that there is a lot of traffic at present).
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Post by spsmiler on May 24, 2020 22:28:29 GMT
And a worst case? Perhaps T4 current buildings needed no further? Unlikely to be that drastic, most airlines at LHR seem to be of one voice that passenger traffic will return to pre-Covid levels by 2023. I suspect the reasons T4's demotion to a stabling facility besides collapsed demand was that social distancing is impossible with such a small terminal so as long as that is required T4 will remain unusable. LOL, knock it down to build the new runway! btw, maybe by 2023 but when I look at the financial situation caused by the virus I cannot help thinking of a period of deep depression and hyper-inflation, which will make the recovery take longer - especially for airlines, tourism, other 'disposible income industries' The good news is that by the time the financial situation has improved and there are more people travelling we will have new aircraft technologies that mean that air travel will not be so polluting - or noisy for people below flight paths!
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Post by superteacher on May 26, 2020 20:37:18 GMT
With most shops set to reopen on June 15th, will TFL be dropping the “essential travel only” message?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 26, 2020 21:21:13 GMT
Has social distancing and working from home whenever possible come to an end then?
Non essential shops can only reopen if they implement social distancing measures. I can already think of quite a few that are gonna struggle to implement this in any meaningful way. Mind you, my local Lidl’s aren’t bothering now so I guess this is the beginning of the end....
As long as social distancing and working from home whenever possible remain, I don’t see any reason why public transport should be making any changes to its messaging, etc
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Post by North End on May 26, 2020 21:21:41 GMT
With most shops set to reopen on June 15th, will TFL be dropping the “essential travel only” message? I doubt it. I think there’s an element of “see how it goes”. So far it’s fair to say trains are still generally not busy apart from at certain times, but equally there’s clearly still a lot of people not at work. It’s generally agreed that getting the masses safely back to work has to be top priority. Likewise fewer punters is safer for staff if they have to deal with any kind of incident or issue. It is noticeable that there are some “newly returned” users around. Over the last few weeks the key workers have generally settled down nicely to the social distancing. Today on my mainline train home a woman came and sat close to me despite the 12-carriage train being almost completely empty - WHY?!?! 😡😡😡
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Post by superteacher on May 26, 2020 21:32:07 GMT
Pretty sure that we will move to a recommended 1 metre distancing rule in the not too distant future.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on May 26, 2020 22:29:51 GMT
One metre?
Might as well just say social distancing is no longer required!
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Post by North End on May 26, 2020 22:41:12 GMT
One metre? Might as well just say social distancing is no longer required! Given that apparently many people are scared to use trains / go to work, the 2 metres may by psychologically important, even if science were to advice 1 metres was adequate. I can’t see the 2 metres being reduced without some other mitigation, which could be compulsory masks. Despite the recent push on mask wearing, many still aren’t. Personally I’m not bothering, if I travelled at busy times then that might be a different matter.
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Post by superteacher on May 26, 2020 23:12:05 GMT
One metre? Might as well just say social distancing is no longer required! We are pretty much the only country to have a 2 metre rule. There is no way that the country can be opened up to any degree whilst it stays at 2m. When shops reopen, demand for transport will increase considerably and there is no way that it will cope if 2m is retained. Slightly off-topic (but relevant) is schools. With the current 2m rule, 8 per class is the maximum. Reducing to 1m effectively enables a normal class size.
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Post by 35b on May 27, 2020 7:26:49 GMT
One metre? Might as well just say social distancing is no longer required! WHO guidance is 1m, most countries seem to be erring on a cautious 1.5m and the U.K. is almost unique in going for 2m.
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Post by billbedford on May 27, 2020 9:04:33 GMT
With most shops set to reopen on June 15th, will TFL be dropping the “essential travel only” message? The government will do what is has done throughout this crisis and what they allow will follow what is happening on the ground, or the press if there is enough fuss made.
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 27, 2020 10:18:15 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was 1m with a mask/face covering, 2m without and most EU countries have made masks compulsory.
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Post by PiccNT on May 27, 2020 10:38:34 GMT
Whatever it is, I would like our track maintenance guys to start working again as we have a line littered with 20mph TSR's (Temporary Speed Restrictions) and it's somewhat tedious.
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Post by North End on May 27, 2020 11:25:39 GMT
With most shops set to reopen on June 15th, will TFL be dropping the “essential travel only” message? The government will do what is has done throughout this crisis and what they allow will follow what is happening on the ground, or the press if there is enough fuss made. Wise words there, and sums it up perfectly. What we will see is some people will test the water, like they’ve done throughout the lockdown, and when they find there’s no real enforcement will simply do as they please. This will then see passenger numbers gradually rise - unless we start seeing massive amounts of social media “look how crowded my train was this morning”. It would of course be interesting to see what happens should we start seeing “NHS worker in tears when their train arrives and they can’t distance properly because it’s full of families on the way to the beach”... We will just see more of the same confused mess like we’ve seen all the way through this, plus closer to home no doubt a bit more of the mayor v government point-scoring.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 27, 2020 13:01:39 GMT
Whatever it is, I would like our track maintenance guys to start working again as we have a line littered with 20mph TSR's (Temporary Speed Restrictions) and it's somewhat tedious. They're not not working. Priority is rightly being given to patrolling and urgent service affecting defects, and, just as control rooms and train crew depots are seeing reduced coverage through staff self-isolating, sick, or shielding, the maintenance areas are no different.
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Post by PiccNT on May 27, 2020 13:09:21 GMT
Whatever it is, I would like our track maintenance guys to start working again as we have a line littered with 20mph TSR's (Temporary Speed Restrictions) and it's somewhat tedious. They're not not working. Priority is rightly being given to patrolling and urgent service affecting defects, and, just as control rooms and train crew depots are seeing reduced coverage through staff self-isolating, sick, or shielding, the maintenance areas are no different. Maybe I phrased it incorrectly. It wasn't meant to be a criticism but a light hearted observation of the difficulties that we face everyday.
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 29, 2020 11:04:24 GMT
We've had a memo from "schedules" saying there is a plan that from Monday 6th July Night Tube lines Sunday service will start up at Monday - Friday times and that the Waterloo & City Line will resume Monday - Friday operation. Its all still in negotiation but interesting.
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Post by nig on May 29, 2020 17:41:26 GMT
We've had a memo from "schedules" saying there is a plan that from Monday 6th July Night Tube lines Sunday service will start up at Monday - Friday times and that the Waterloo & City Line will resume Monday - Friday operation. Its all still in negotiation but interesting. Suppose it makes sense as night tube operators can't do a lot on Sunday morning and would get more trains in right position for normal drivers to take over . I know schedules are looking ant more productive work for night tube operators
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Post by North End on May 30, 2020 12:35:40 GMT
We've had a memo from "schedules" saying there is a plan that from Monday 6th July Night Tube lines Sunday service will start up at Monday - Friday times and that the Waterloo & City Line will resume Monday - Friday operation. Its all still in negotiation but interesting. A small update from my neck of the woods, and unfortunately it’s a rather negative picture. The week’s timetabled service has generally been poor, with yesterday in particular being a hurrendous day - described by more than one of those operating it as “worst in career”. The combination of numerous uncovered duties and a points failure resulted in dire late running, culminating in some half-hour gaps in the central area. ER issues continue, and this now appears to have spread to control staff too. For various reasons there’s now a reluctance to reverse trains, which has made it very much harder to correct the late running arising from the disjointed service. This will in turn no doubt further fuel ER issues with train crews. There’s been a very conspicuous increase in usage today, and it’s certainly not essential journeys. Plenty of families visible for instance, and some particular issues with people trying to take bikes on trains in places not permitted. Today’s numbers are pushing the limits of 2 metre distancing, so it’s simply not going to be viable if shops re-opening sees a surge in shopping trips. As predicted we are seeing people test the waters, and when they find that there’s no enforcement this will mean they will do it again. Many of these users also seem oblivious to distancing - where have they been for the last 10 weeks? We continue to be short on key resources, which means operating under stress. On the positive side we may be getting some shielded staff back soon, as it seems there’s efforts being made to assess everyone on an individual basis. This seems to be facilitating a few returning to work, with social distancing being a suitable mitigation. All in all it’s sadly not a happy ship at the moment, and without being too political a certain name and a rather nice town in County Durham is cropping up as a particular source of anguish. Perhaps things are rosier elsewhere?! On a more general note, more labels are going up everywhere, and work has started fitting these to trains. Some stations now have one-way systems in place. I must admit to being sceptical in some cases - King’s Cross for instance how has a rather bizarre one-way setup, which I didn’t feel particularly contributed to social distancing by forcing me to traipse round the station and be inside it for several minutes longer than I would have otherwise needed to be, especially at a time when the station was genuinely fairly empty. Again this is not going to stand up to increased numbers, and I don’t envy staff having to supervise it all. Personal opinion, however I’m not sure operating like this is sustainable, it’s not going to hold up if numbers increase, especially with the new “extended bank holiday” atmosphere now being seen. Something is going to have to give, either more rigid enforcement of what constitutes an essential journey, or social distancing will simply wither away. Some tough leadership decisions will doubtless need to be taken to reconcile all this.
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Post by Chris M on May 30, 2020 13:17:48 GMT
Some tough leadership decisions will doubtless need to be taken to reconcile all this. In practical terms, is there anyone at LU/TfL who is in a position to take those decisions in the absence of strong leadership from central government?
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 30, 2020 13:25:06 GMT
We've had a memo from "schedules" saying there is a plan that from Monday 6th July Night Tube lines Sunday service will start up at Monday - Friday times and that the Waterloo & City Line will resume Monday - Friday operation. Its all still in negotiation but interesting. A small update from my neck of the woods, and unfortunately it’s a rather negative picture. The week’s timetabled service has generally been poor, with yesterday in particular being a hurrendous day - described by more than one of those operating it as “worst in career”. The combination of numerous uncovered duties and a points failure resulted in dire late running, culminating in some half-hour gaps in the central area. ER issues continue, and this now appears to have spread to control staff too. For various reasons there’s now a reluctance to reverse trains, which has made it very much harder to correct the late running arising from the disjointed service. This will in turn no doubt further fuel ER issues with train crews. There’s been a very conspicuous increase in usage today, and it’s certainly not essential journeys. Plenty of families visible for instance, and some particular issues with people trying to take bikes on trains in places not permitted. Today’s numbers are pushing the limits of 2 metre distancing, so it’s simply not going to be viable if shops re-opening sees a surge in shopping trips. As predicted we are seeing people test the waters, and when they find that there’s no enforcement this will mean they will do it again. Many of these users also seem oblivious to distancing - where have they been for the last 10 weeks? We continue to be short on key resources, which means operating under stress. On the positive side we may be getting some shielded staff back soon, as it seems there’s efforts being made to assess everyone on an individual basis. This seems to be facilitating a few returning to work, with social distancing being a suitable mitigation. All in all it’s sadly not a happy ship at the moment, and without being too political a certain name and a rather nice town in County Durham is cropping up as a particular source of anguish. Perhaps things are rosier elsewhere?! On a more general note, more labels are going up everywhere, and work has started fitting these to trains. Some stations now have one-way systems in place. I must admit to being sceptical in some cases - King’s Cross for instance how has a rather bizarre one-way setup, which I didn’t feel particularly contributed to social distancing by forcing me to traipse round the station and be inside it for several minutes longer than I would have otherwise needed to be, especially at a time when the station was genuinely fairly empty. Again this is not going to stand up to increased numbers, and I don’t envy staff having to supervise it all. Personal opinion, however I’m not sure operating like this is sustainable, it’s not going to hold up if numbers increase, especially with the new “extended bank holiday” atmosphere now being seen. Something is going to have to give, either more rigid enforcement of what constitutes an essential journey, or social distancing will simply wither away. Some tough leadership decisions will doubtless need to be taken to reconcile all this. Central Line doesn't seem to be having any major problems - or at least while I've been on duty although we are able to use the W&C duties as additional spares. There certainly are a lot more bikes than before and not where they should be and I guess that will become an issue when we get back to normal. TfL are committed to full service in four weeks (I assume from when they got the bailout money) so it would be almost impossible to reduce the service.
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Post by PiccNT on May 30, 2020 14:02:59 GMT
Not too bad on the Picc. We're used to running with loads of cancellations so business as usual with us. I've been off for a couple of days but back later today so I'll see what Saturday night looks like. In terms of reversing to get back on time, I can't see any of our T/Op's refusing. They try and do this consistently throughout the year so now won't be any different!
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