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Post by jimbo on Sept 7, 2019 11:32:34 GMT
Just came across some head-count figures. The Met had 242 train operators to sign off on CBTC experience in SMA2. The District will have 435 to sign off in SMA3, the next commissioning! I was originally under the impression that not all Met drivers had been trained or hadn't completed their two day refresher (the original training is only valid for six months - if CBTC isn't in operation within that time, refresher training is delivered). I have subsequently become aware that this information is incorrect. The actual issue is the number of I/O's (Instructor Operators) the Met line has versus the size of the area and thus number of trains they need to provide support on. With only 242 drivers and a 10% I/O ratio plus a small margin on top, the Met has something like 28 I/O's. The run from Finchley Road to Euston Square is what, 14 minutes? I don't know how many Met trains would normally be in that area at any given time, but let's have an educated guess at 7 in each direction.......so 14 trains. Every train, initially at least, requires an I/O on board to provide support.......from start of traffic to close of traffic......7 days a week..... It dosen't then take a maths genius to work out that they simply haven't got the I/O resource to cope with a full service. ….. From the publics perspective, it appears that no one realised this until Monday morning! Recruit more I/O's before SMA2? Temporary timetable? Public announcements? Using trained operators to relieve untrained only delays final qualification of all operators with I/O's.
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Post by dm1 on Sept 9, 2019 16:30:33 GMT
The official TfL status update claims that there is a Good Service on the Metropolitan Line.
The official Metropolitan Line twitter, with its tweet upon tweet of trains being cancelled between Wembley Park and Aldgate would suggest otherwise. Here is one example.
I guess at least that information is getting out, which I think is an improvement over the (as far as the Met line is concerned fairly meaningless) Minor Delays.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 9, 2019 16:56:13 GMT
Yes the lies have started today. Disappointing but not unexpected.
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Sept 9, 2019 17:22:40 GMT
I somehow expect this to carry on into the next week. My usual train out Zone 1 was carrying more than usual but it was not painfully crowded. I think working the 9-7 day on account of the Met won’t carry on for this week.
As much as some people think the cancellation and alteration announcements are annoying, I think they’ve been very helpful. I’m glad that TfL took this little bit of initiative here, even if it was a week late! I wonder if anyone in ‘the know’ has any updates that are fit for public consumption?
But as said up the thread, I don’t think that what we have today constitutes a good service - not by a long shot.
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cso
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Post by cso on Sept 9, 2019 17:42:14 GMT
The 1741 won't start at Baker Street, but will start 27mins earlier from 10 mins up the line?
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Post by metrider on Sept 9, 2019 19:28:55 GMT
The 1741 won't start at Baker Street, but will start 27mins earlier from 10 mins up the line? Or a typo??... It would normally be at Wembley at 17: 54
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Post by metrider on Sept 9, 2019 19:31:38 GMT
So Looking ahead...... When future Met line areas are converted to the new signalling, do all of the train ops need to undergo six assisted trips on the new section or will the existing training suffice?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 9, 2019 19:37:54 GMT
So Looking ahead...... When future Met line areas are converted to the new signalling, do all of the train ops need to undergo six assisted trips on the new section or will the existing training suffice? As with the H&C Circle drivers who have been working SMA 0.5 there will be no need for MET drivers to undergo further training for SMA 3. As has been said elsewhere in these pages the District has a slight problem in that Paddington-Edgware Road is too short to be classed as one trip, so IOs must continue to conduct trains through this area.
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Post by commuter on Sept 10, 2019 4:27:50 GMT
Yes the lies have started today. Disappointing but not unexpected. I must say I wholeheartedly disagree that these are lies. The criteria for service status has been well documented on these forums before so I don’t see a need to go into it again however it needs to be appreciated that it is a general picture and at peak times south of Harrow on the hill a service interval has to reach three times the usual headway to count as minor delays. & contrary to popular beliefs; there are _still_ no targets or bonuses for managers for displaying a good service on the board. Targets are based around actual measured performance such as lost customer hours and similar things involving numbers.
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Post by edb on Sept 10, 2019 6:25:37 GMT
The problem for the Commuters are the confused and therefore inaccurate communications. This morning there are severe delays, it’s not clear what is causing the issues from the current status.
Circle Line: Severe delays clockwise only, due to an earlier faulty train at Baker Street. Tickets will be accepted on London Buses via any reasonable route. GOOD SERVICE anticlockwise.
Hammersmith and City Line: Severe delays between Hammersmith and Barking eastbound only, due to an earlier faulty train at Baker Street. Tickets will be accepted on London Buses via any reasonable route. GOOD SERVICE on the rest of the line
Metropolitan Line: Severe delays between Baker Street and Aldgate southbound only, while we establish our new signaling system. GOOD SERVICE on the rest of the line.
Is it a faulty train or is it signalling? Bit unfair to blame one thing when it’s the other...
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 10, 2019 6:42:53 GMT
It’s worth bearing in mind that some of us have a lot more insight into the reality of what is happening than most. I’m aware that this might come across as ‘holding all the knowledge’ but at the same time we do need to respect the sources we have for such information, and indeed our jobs.
I don’t have the time to work out what is actually running versus what the plan is (and there is a hugely detailed daily plan that has existed every day since the system went live, service control colleagues have spent a lot of time using resources available to minimise double cancellations and protect trains from the top of the Met) but this morning’s plan should see things go to Minor Delays as prescribed by the service status guidance (see mentions above).
There was an earlier non-communicating train at Baker Street which shut things down for around thirty minutes - because of how Restricted Manual (RM) moves have to happen this affected Baker Street as a whole area, further delaying the Met through the City and leading to Severe Delays (on all lines, for reference). Convention is that the ‘bigger’/root delay will be displayed - in this case it is unlikely that the Met would have gone to Severe Delays had there not already been delays due to the driver issue. Both lines should recover (to Minor/Good respectively) within the next hour or so.
For the record, there are only thirteen cancellations in this morning’s peak - a significant reduction from last week. One of these is due to Operator Not Available and unconnected with CBTC training.
There is no conspiracy. It is accepted that driver training could have gone smoothly but the opportunities to do this were limited. The delays to the programme have had a knock-on effect, but that’s not the be all and end all. It is appreciated that it is an inconvenience for passengers relying on services but there’s no easy fix. Staff on the ground don’t think “Let’s disrupt the railway for some fun” - it causes them significantly more work too, as I’ve alluded to above.
The situation will improve and, in time, CBTC will bring huge benefits and improvements to the railway as a whole. The early days were always going to be tricky - but they will soon be forgotten. How many people (enthusiasts aside) genuinely remember the difficulties of the Jubilee resignalling, or indeed the woes of the ‘Misery’ line before that upgrade? (Hint: not as many as you’d think).
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Post by commuter on Sept 10, 2019 13:06:39 GMT
The problem for the Commuters are the confused and therefore inaccurate communications. This morning there are severe delays, it’s not clear what is causing the issues from the current status. Circle Line: Severe delays clockwise only, due to an earlier faulty train at Baker Street. Tickets will be accepted on London Buses via any reasonable route. GOOD SERVICE anticlockwise. Hammersmith and City Line: Severe delays between Hammersmith and Barking eastbound only, due to an earlier faulty train at Baker Street. Tickets will be accepted on London Buses via any reasonable route. GOOD SERVICE on the rest of the line Metropolitan Line: Severe delays between Baker Street and Aldgate southbound only, while we establish our new signaling system. GOOD SERVICE on the rest of the line. Is it a faulty train or is it signalling? Bit unfair to blame one thing when it’s the other... I think it’s quite clear from that message. Circle Line / Hammersmith & City due to faulty train. Met due to signals.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 10, 2019 13:58:11 GMT
I think it’s quite clear from that message. Circle Line / Hammersmith & City due to faulty train. Met due to signals. Which, as we’ve said many times in the pages above is not accurate, the signalling system is working fine, it’s the lack of qualified trainstaff that require conducting by I/Os.
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Post by superteacher on Sept 10, 2019 18:41:53 GMT
Yes the lies have started today. Disappointing but not unexpected. I must say I wholeheartedly disagree that these are lies. The criteria for service status has been well documented on these forums before so I don’t see a need to go into it again however it needs to be appreciated that it is a general picture and at peak times south of Harrow on the hill a service interval has to reach three times the usual headway to count as minor delays. & contrary to popular beliefs; there are _still_ no targets or bonuses for managers for displaying a good service on the board. Targets are based around actual measured performance such as lost customer hours and similar things involving numbers. Then the status is not for purpose and totally useless. Remember the lies that were told on the Picc last year during leaf fall session. Good service when there were regular 30 min - 60 min gaps on the Rayners Lane branch. Anyway, we drift.
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 10, 2019 21:51:20 GMT
In some ways reading this thread reminds me of the issues on Thameslink last year with the new timetables - the specific facts are different but the end result (massive disruption for the travelling public) has been the same.
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Post by ijmad on Sept 11, 2019 12:07:44 GMT
In some ways reading this thread reminds me of the issues on Thameslink last year with the new timetables - the specific facts are different but the end result (massive disruption for the travelling public) has been the same. A lot of the issues initially were due to route knowledge training not being completed, so in some ways very similar indeed.
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Post by alpinejohn on Sept 11, 2019 18:22:23 GMT
So once again the official TFL Status currently shows - "a good service on all lines"
Meantime tonight's official TFL Metropolitan Line twitter updates list the following..
The 18:30 Uxbridge to Baker Street service will be cancelled.
The 18:29 Baker Street to Watford service will be cancelled.
The 18:44 Baker Street to Uxbridge will not run from Baker Street.
ℹ️ The train will enter service at Harrow-on-the-Hill at 19:05.
The 19:17 Baker Street to Uxbridge service will be cancelled.
The 19:20 Watford to Harrow-on-the-Hill service will be cancelled.
Hopefully none of these changes have nothing to do with the new signalling system, at which point we have to ponder whether the planned service levels programmed into the signalling system are actually untenable and perhaps it is time to reduce their timetable to reflect whatever service levels they are actually able to deliver.
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 11, 2019 18:52:11 GMT
For the one millionth time, the delays and cancellations are nothing to do with the new signalling system.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 18:53:45 GMT
To my knowledge there is nothing wrong with the signalling.
They have had little issues but nothing to stop it working, there is a lot of redundancy built into it so total failures should be quite rare.
In theory it can run more trains then currently in the timetable and faster, but to stop the start stop routine of trains getting really close it can self regulate itself to try and avoid that.
The general public won’t notice too much difference until they complete an entire line or at a minimum a bigger section
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Post by ijmad on Sept 11, 2019 20:39:27 GMT
So once again the official TFL Status currently shows - "a good service on all lines" I don't have information for the Met in front of me, but on the District, the FOIs say "minor delays" means roughly one of: 3x normal headways for 10+ minutes, 5-10 mins of stoppage on services, or less than 75% of trains in service. The cancellations on the Met over the last few days are far smaller than any of these thresholds, except maybe cancellations from Amersham. But certainly not a few Watford/Uxbridge trains being started from Wembley Park.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Sept 11, 2019 21:40:20 GMT
3x does seem a very high number for both low frequency services and for line sections with very high patronage.
How are those numbers calculated or modeled? Is there a thread where the decisions that define this have been discussed, rather than just how the perception of it from passengers perspective seems frustrating?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 11, 2019 21:53:36 GMT
3x does seem a very high number for both low frequency services and for line sections with very high patronage. How are those numbers calculated or modeled? Is there a thread where the decisions that define this have been discussed, rather than just how the perception of it from passengers perspective seems frustrating? Indeed just one cancellation on a 10-mintue interval service will be perceived by passengers as a minor (at least) delay, while in the peak three 5-minute headways on the Jubilee (nominal interval ~2 minutes) will lead to significant overcrowding yet both will be officially "good service" by the above metric. No wonder it's frequently described as "meaningless".
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Post by ijmad on Sept 11, 2019 22:59:56 GMT
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Post by goldenarrow on Sept 15, 2019 20:57:02 GMT
Job done, or is it...
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Post by londonstuff on Sept 15, 2019 21:30:24 GMT
Which is a bit different to what they were saying at KX earlier today which was laying the blame squarely at the system:
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Post by ijmad on Sept 15, 2019 21:38:42 GMT
That poster looks a few days old. Perhaps they just haven't been told to remove them yet.
I imagine that a week's cycle means nearly all drivers on the Met will have had a chance to receive instruction in the new procedures.
BTW - I noticed that the entire SMA 0.5/1/2 area is closed for engineering works next weekend. Tweaks rolling out? Perhaps an updated software version? Or physical tweaks here and there to infrastructure? Or just more driver training? Anyone know?
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Post by howda62 on Sept 15, 2019 22:17:12 GMT
Announcements at Finchley Road this afternoon and early evening were apologising for train cancellations whilst the new signalling system is being established, so presumably there were such cancellations today. The Uxbridge services were terminating at Harrow due to the planned track work, but they didn't cite that as the reason for cancellations.
Hopefully it is all sorted soon, and perhaps today is indeed the last day of cancellations.
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 15, 2019 22:30:03 GMT
That shouldn’t have been the case - there were only three (planned) cancellations today due to CBTC training, all in the evening. I suspect it was an automated announcement that hadn’t been suitably amended.
Things are expected to be significantly improving this week.
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Post by howda62 on Sept 15, 2019 22:39:30 GMT
Good to hear - it was an automated message, so probably not amended.
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Post by metrider on Sept 16, 2019 6:02:48 GMT
Which is a bit different to what they were saying at KX earlier today which was laying the blame squarely at the system: At harrow last Friday, the posters had been updated to cite the reason as familiarising the drivers with the new system. I think the poster was actually dated last Wednesday. A "soft" way to describe the underlying reason for the cancellations but more factual/less misleading.They must have turned the PR filter down a notch!
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