Colin
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My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
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Post by Colin on Sept 4, 2019 6:45:48 GMT
Some of these comments seem to suggest that the Met was lax on training its drivers, but I think that is a misunderstanding of the situation. Those closer to the action could explain, but I believe that Met drivers had completed their classroom and simulator training. What they needed was practical experience on their train using the new signalling. This is defined as at least six trips, two manually driving, with an Instructor Operator. They need to switch over the train for CBTC, proceed through the new signalling, and then switch the train back for conventional signalling. The Instructor will then document all this and leave them, crossing over to accompany another driver back. Most of the Instructors received their experience during test running on trial weekends, but to include all Met line drivers for at least six trips needs a full service running for a couple of days at least, and there will still be those on rest days, etc to catch up with. The service can carry passengers but can never be as efficient as a regular day. Hard to justify closing to passengers on a regular weekday. I'm not entirely sure I understand what you are trying to explain here. You say all Met drivers have completed their training. So why then, out of a peak requirement of 49 trains (36 off peak) have we seen 17 trains cancelled on Monday and 22 trains cancelled yesterday? If all drivers are trained there would be no need to cancel such a high number of trains. This was based on experience resignalling the Jubilee and Northern lines. On the Jubilee the first implementation was between two country stations to provide all drivers with experience, but the full implementation took so long that they were out of practice by then. A similar plan for the Barnet branch was dropped for that reason, I believe, only delaying the real implementation. On the Met such an introduction would have been restricted by the branches splitting north of Harrow. Of course, the two earlier Sub-surface resignallings planned to start out at the extremities to reduce delays to main services, but it was decided to start in the centre this time to bring advantages to the most passengers as soon as possible. Hopefully once this week is over, things will go as planned. It was always planned from the very start to complete the Circle line and then move out from there - so Finchley Road to Euston Square was always going to be the Met's first CBTC area. They've known this for at least two years so there's no excuse for this weeks carnage.
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Sept 4, 2019 6:50:54 GMT
I’m seeing a lot of action on Twitter regarding refunds.
I’m presuming that won’t apply to me on the basis I’m deeming it necessary to stay at work until 7 every night in order to let the chaos die down before heading home? This means I am not getting home until 9 nightly. Without wishing to ruffle fathers, I must say it has been badly managed (if at all) and despite the Metline handle on Twitter saying the service should improve day on day, it has actually deteriorated badly from the point of view of many commuters - myself included.
I wonder if the management are going to have a debrief after this debacle and whose posterior is on the line. Surely someone has to be held to account for this, as on the surface this smacks of a lack of resource planning and a failure to manage expectations. No emergency timetable, trains either not running (e.g. the 07:35 ex-Chesham this morning (cancelled at 15 minutes notice)), or doing services they normally wouldn’t (the 07:35 ex-Chesham yesterday ran semi-fast to Wembley).
There are lessons to be learned from this - this seems like a very insensible way to operate a live working railway upon which millions of people depend weekly. Also chopping and changing it with what on the surface seems with very little forethought is no way to treat the paying public. People’s requests to get a revised timetable should not have been a hard request to fulfil for the management.
Rant over - but unless the management gets its act together, I will meet my death this week at their doing.
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Post by ijmad on Sept 4, 2019 9:50:58 GMT
Shouldn't the situation be gradually improving day by day as more drivers get signed off?
It doesn't seem to be.
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vato
Zone 6D - Special Fares Apply
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Post by vato on Sept 4, 2019 10:06:21 GMT
11:27 from Chesham also cancelled yesterday - grim when it's a half-hourly service - but there was nothing I could find online to tell me this in advance. The remainder of the journey took 16 mins longer than usual too, so I assume the rubbish Chesham services was due to prior late runnning.
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Post by alpinejohn on Sept 4, 2019 11:57:02 GMT
So by Midnight tomorrow night are they confident all Met line drivers will actually know how to drive trains (and be suitably signed off) to operate under the new signalling system?
If this mess continues into next week then someone at TFL towers should be asking some serious questions.
We have heard comments that it is not the signalling system fault and indeed it is working wonderfully!!!
Despite that its "new signalling introduction" which seems to be blamed on their Status Updates rather than incompetence organising and completing training before they turned on the new system!
It seems weird in the extreme that the Met line controllers cannot even manage to organise rosters to run the reduced schedule services - and have to resort to cancelling services with little or no notice!
I have an ominous feeling of deja vu and that behind the scenes there is now more focus on "not my fault" and a lot less on getting the new system hiccups resolved.
The worry is that TFL think it acceptable to impose such chaos on their paying customers. Should customers now expect similar chaos when they decide to shift the District services to the new signalling?
OK I understand the desire to extract benefits from the new signalling as soon as possible hence the desire to turn on the central sections asap sort of makes sense - but only when all the ducks are in a row!
If lack of training opportunities is indeed the issue, then it surely would have made sense to install early a short stretch of new signalling at an isolated/ remote end of the line (Chalfont - Chesham?). This would have allowed all Met line drivers and ample instructors to have been rostered to do sufficient turns over that route (over the last several months when nothing else was happening) and if an untrained driver slips through the net and arrives at Chalfont when a trainer was not available they could be simply diverted to Amersham - much as they did at Edgware Road when SMA 0.5 was brought in to service.
For the Met - the damage is done now - but lessons need to be learned and a better approach taken with the District and other SMA roll-outs.
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Post by ijmad on Sept 4, 2019 13:11:42 GMT
TfL have flipped the description on the website to 'special service' now, whatever that means.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 4, 2019 13:39:17 GMT
Special service means a service that is different to normal, usually in practice trains run at a reduced frequency and/or to different destinations/to a different pattern, but that service is running to plan (unless it's "special service, minor delays", etc). Of course it could also be being used euphemistically - it wouldn't be the first example of service statuses being used in this manner this week.
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Post by metrider on Sept 4, 2019 13:41:35 GMT
TfL have flipped the description on the website to 'special service' now, whatever that means. Call me cynical but..., It probably means that they can run the service that they are advertising and therefore get away without paying customer charter refunds!
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vato
Zone 6D - Special Fares Apply
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Post by vato on Sept 4, 2019 14:07:56 GMT
...which combined with the oyster website not working means there's no need for your cynicism :-)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2019 16:35:06 GMT
When it was going to be the Westinghouse DTG-R signalling and then the Bombardier CityFlo system originally the first stretch to be installed was Rayners Lane to Uxbridge but under CBTC they changed there minds why? Who knows
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Post by will on Sept 4, 2019 17:21:28 GMT
When it was going to be the Westinghouse DTG-R signalling and then the Bombardier CityFlo system originally the first stretch to be installed was Rayners Lane to Uxbridge but under CBTC they changed there minds why? Who knows The reason they changed their minds was because with all the cancelled contracts they were aware the circle line and district weren’t getting the capacity increase required so they began this time by introducing the system in central London first to give a capacity increase on the circle and district first and the metropolitan last. The northern Met Amersham and Chesham is now the last area planned to be completed rather than the first for this reason.
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Post by commuter on Sept 4, 2019 19:14:19 GMT
When it was going to be the Westinghouse DTG-R signalling and then the Bombardier CityFlo system originally the first stretch to be installed was Rayners Lane to Uxbridge but under CBTC they changed there minds why? Who knows The reason they changed their minds was because with all the cancelled contracts they were aware the circle line and district weren’t getting the capacity increase required so they began this time by introducing the system in central London first to give a capacity increase on the circle and district first and the metropolitan last. The northern Met Amersham and Chesham is now the last area planned to be completed rather than the first for this reason. I thought the Uxbridge branch was the last? The latest map I’ve seen shows Moor Park and beyond in S.M.A 13 and the Uxbridge branch as 14.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2019 19:31:46 GMT
Correct
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Post by ijmad on Sept 4, 2019 20:23:01 GMT
The interesting SMAs that overlap with Chiltern, Overground and Piccadilly Line services surely add complexity where they will be doing overlay of CBTC on top of fixed block signalling or underlay of fixed block signalling on CBTC. I assume this involves a bunch of extra tech and equipment and therefore risks, even if they're hard at work on the solutions already.
But with my project manager hat on, I'd certainly put them last too if I'd made the migration plan.
Interesting to wonder if the Piccadilly Line will eventually get Seltrac too when they find the money to un-shelve that project. Might make things easier!
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 4, 2019 21:49:38 GMT
I accept that its too late now but maybe the first section of the Met to have been converted should have been the local lines North Harrow - Moor Park. A self contained route - no junctions - that would have allowed staff to get their much-needed hands-on experience with much less likelihood of causing the sort of problems now being experienced this week at the London end of the line. Plus, if need, be some of the trains could be diverted via the main line.
From what I am seeing here it could be said that the desire to get things up and running where the most benefit will be felt first has back-fired with (unwitting 'guinea-pig') passengers experiencing severe delays even with the service reduction.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Sept 5, 2019 6:13:14 GMT
Thursday 0712 Aldgate to Wembley Park and Wembley Park to Aldgate Severe Delays, while establishing our new Signalling System, London Underground tickets are being excepted on Chiltern Railway’s, London Overground, London Buses, Carousel and Arriva Buses. 😂😭😟🥺
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 5, 2019 6:46:34 GMT
Their Twitter feed is suggesting there will be no Amersham/Chesham departure cancellations, only from Uxbridge and Watford
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Post by underover on Sept 5, 2019 12:17:37 GMT
Their Twitter feed is suggesting there will be no Amersham/Chesham departure cancellations, only from Uxbridge and Watford The train I was on changed from Uxbridge to Amersham today so I agree
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Post by goldenarrow on Sept 5, 2019 13:16:04 GMT
Well, well, well. Either my rant has been seen by the overlords or someone’s been given a kick up the backside because a list of cancelled services on the Watford and Uxbridge branches went up on Twitter today early this morning. Good on em’ who ever made it happen.
Whilst there were still dense crowds, I’d like to think that at least those who took the liberty of checking before they travelled were rewarded this time round with a little more certainty/clarity.
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Post by commuter on Sept 5, 2019 13:50:11 GMT
Their Twitter feed is suggesting there will be no Amersham/Chesham departure cancellations, only from Uxbridge and Watford The train I was on changed from Uxbridge to Amersham today so I agree It’s very frustrating, and happens far too regularly. Uxbridge is by far the busiest branch of the Met yet whenever there is some sort of disruption they always seem to divert Uxbridge trains to somewhere else or cancel them north of Wembley
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Post by philthetube on Sept 5, 2019 14:14:47 GMT
The train I was on changed from Uxbridge to Amersham today so I agree It’s very frustrating, and happens far too regularly. Uxbridge is by far the busiest branch of the Met yet whenever there is some sort of disruption they always seem to divert Uxbridge trains to somewhere else or cancel them north of Wembley The way the human mind works, it always feels that you are the one hardest hit, this is because you remember bad things happening much more clearly than good. Try and find a poker player who does not consider themselves unlucky, and when a service to other destinations is cancelled it is probably not even noticed by Uxbridge passengers. If you look at it from a revenue point of view, probably the biggest earners are the commuter trains from Chesham as the fares are much higher from outside the zones. Cancelling an Uxbridge inconveniences people by 7 minutes, and there is generally spare capacity on the Uxbridge branch as far as Harrow. cancelling a Chesham delays passengers by 30
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Post by philthetube on Sept 5, 2019 14:18:16 GMT
So by Midnight tomorrow night are they confident all Met line drivers will actually know how to drive trains (and be suitably signed off) to operate under the new signalling system? If this mess continues into next week then someone at TFL towers should be asking some serious questions. We have heard comments that it is not the signalling system fault and indeed it is working wonderfully!!! Despite that its "new signalling introduction" which seems to be blamed on their Status Updates rather than incompetence organising and completing training before they turned on the new system! It seems weird in the extreme that the Met line controllers cannot even manage to organise rosters to run the reduced schedule services - and have to resort to cancelling services with little or no notice! I have an ominous feeling of deja vu and that behind the scenes there is now more focus on "not my fault" and a lot less on getting the new system hiccups resolved. The worry is that TFL think it acceptable to impose such chaos on their paying customers. Should customers now expect similar chaos when they decide to shift the District services to the new signalling? OK I understand the desire to extract benefits from the new signalling as soon as possible hence the desire to turn on the central sections asap sort of makes sense - but only when all the ducks are in a row! If lack of training opportunities is indeed the issue, then it surely would have made sense to install early a short stretch of new signalling at an isolated/ remote end of the line (Chalfont - Chesham?). This would have allowed all Met line drivers and ample instructors to have been rostered to do sufficient turns over that route (over the last several months when nothing else was happening) and if an untrained driver slips through the net and arrives at Chalfont when a trainer was not available they could be simply diverted to Amersham - much as they did at Edgware Road when SMA 0.5 was brought in to service. For the Met - the damage is done now - but lessons need to be learned and a better approach taken with the District and other SMA roll-outs. I would be interested to know what percentage are qualified but certainly not all of them.
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Post by metrider on Sept 5, 2019 18:15:49 GMT
So.... We are almost at the end of the advertised period of disruption.... What is the service looking like tomorrow?
I can appreciate that not all Trein Ops will have been trained, but are we reaching the point now, where the training can be accomplished without any cancellations?
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Post by ijmad on Sept 5, 2019 19:37:53 GMT
TfL has been showing 'Minor Delays' all day rather than the 'Severe Delays' of yesterday. Don't know what that all means, mind.
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Post by commuter on Sept 5, 2019 20:50:58 GMT
TfL has been showing 'Minor Delays' all day rather than the 'Severe Delays' of yesterday. Don't know what that all means, mind. They have been advertising minor delays for parts of the daytime service all week, probably not even most of the day, but at times it has only been minor
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 5, 2019 20:59:12 GMT
So.... We are almost at the end of the advertised period of disruption.... What is the service looking like tomorrow? I can appreciate that not all Trein Ops will have been trained, but are we reaching the point now, where the training can be accomplished without any cancellations? Still 12 trains cancelled this morning (from 48).
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Post by jimbo on Sept 6, 2019 0:34:16 GMT
Just came across some head-count figures. The Met had 242 train operators to sign off on CBTC experience in SMA2. The District will have 435 to sign off in SMA3, the next commissioning!
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,346
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Post by Colin on Sept 6, 2019 8:14:45 GMT
Just came across some head-count figures. The Met had 242 train operators to sign off on CBTC experience in SMA2. The District will have 435 to sign off in SMA3, the next commissioning! I was originally under the impression that not all Met drivers had been trained or hadn't completed their two day refresher (the original training is only valid for six months - if CBTC isn't in operation within that time, refresher training is delivered). I have subsequently become aware that this information is incorrect. The actual issue is the number of I/O's (Instructor Operators) the Met line has versus the size of the area and thus number of trains they need to provide support on. With only 242 drivers and a 10% I/O ratio plus a small margin on top, the Met has something like 28 I/O's. The run from Finchley Road to Euston Square is what, 14 minutes? I don't know how many Met trains would normally be in that area at any given time, but let's have an educated guess at 7 in each direction.......so 14 trains. Every train, initially at least, requires an I/O on board to provide support.......from start of traffic to close of traffic......7 days a week..... It dosen't then take a maths genius to work out that they simply haven't got the I/O resource to cope with a full service. Could they have used I/O's from other lines? Potentially yes as the I/O is providing support whilst drivers get familiar with the system, but Union agreements prevent cross line working - this is such an issue that at Paddington we have both District and Circle and I/O's to provide support to Edgware Road as a District I/O cannot provide support to a Circle line driver (and vice versa) even though its the same bloomin' bit of railway! **The Circle support is only temporary and will be withdrawn next week** In terms of the District and SMA3 (Monument to Stepney Green), whilst we have a much larger contingent of drivers, we also have have a larger number of I/O's - 50. The Monument to Stepney travel time is 10 minutes with probably the same maximum number of trains in that area at any one given moment in time. So although we've got more drivers to get through, it should be far easier to achieve as its a more compact area with larger resources to throw at it.
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Post by philthetube on Sept 6, 2019 18:03:10 GMT
There were also some qualified drivers who were able to relieve unqualified staff arriving at Finchley road and take charge of the train, but not provide training.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 7, 2019 8:23:10 GMT
Although no Uxbridge service because of planned engineering work, cancellations again from Chesham, Amersham and Watford today, with others turned short at either Harrow or Wembley.
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