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Post by will on Nov 3, 2019 12:41:57 GMT
As a brief aside, are there any alternative rail services that aren't already overcrowded that could relieve the pressure on what would be a reduced service on the Epping branch of the Central line? Apologies if this is off topic. Agreed! Would it not be possible to run 4 car trains in off peak times or during night tube even if it was just a few trains per hour that were 4 car rather than all services. Surely having more trains in the depot whilst maintaining the same TPH being able to receive maintence would be beneficial? |
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Post by superteacher on Nov 3, 2019 13:10:32 GMT
As a brief aside, are there any alternative rail services that aren't already overcrowded that could relieve the pressure on what would be a reduced service on the Epping branch of the Central line? Apologies if this is off topic. Agreed! Would it not be possible to run 4 car trains in off peak times or during night tube even if it was just a few trains per hour that were 4 car rather than all services. Surely having more trains in the depot whilst maintaining the same TPH being able to receive maintence would be beneficial? Off peak services are crowded enough with 8 car trains. It was a very different world when the Underground last ran shorter off peak trains. You’d also have an issue with having enough driving cabs. |
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Post by Chris M on Nov 3, 2019 13:21:26 GMT
There also aren't any alternative rail services east of Woodford - the closest options are the Overground at Chingford/Walthamstow, the Victoria line at Walthamstow, and TfL rail/Greater Anglia at Romford/Brentwood, none of which are exactly either close or swimming in spare capacity. The public transport links to these are also typically slow and crowded enough without passengers diverting from the Central line.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 3, 2019 14:11:58 GMT
WTT70 is maximum 75-train service; WTT69 is 78 8-car train service.
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Post by commuter on Nov 3, 2019 18:23:51 GMT
There also aren't any alternative rail services east of Woodford - the closest options are the Overground at Chingford/Walthamstow, the Victoria line at Walthamstow, and TfL rail/Greater Anglia at Romford/Brentwood, none of which are exactly either close or swimming in spare capacity. The public transport links to these are also typically slow and crowded enough without passengers diverting from the Central line. Although, a lot of the Epping service customers drive from Essex, many towns that do have a Main-Line service provided by Greater Anglia Trains, but choose to drive to Epping for a variety of reasons. |
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Post by superteacher on Nov 3, 2019 19:06:54 GMT
There also aren't any alternative rail services east of Woodford - the closest options are the Overground at Chingford/Walthamstow, the Victoria line at Walthamstow, and TfL rail/Greater Anglia at Romford/Brentwood, none of which are exactly either close or swimming in spare capacity. The public transport links to these are also typically slow and crowded enough without passengers diverting from the Central line. Although, a lot of the Epping service customers drive from Essex, many towns that do have a Main-Line service provided by Greater Anglia Trains, but choose to drive to Epping for a variety of reasons. The main reason being the zone 6 fares. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 3, 2019 21:13:46 GMT
Although, a lot of the Epping service customers drive from Essex, many towns that do have a Main-Line service provided by Greater Anglia Trains, but choose to drive to Epping for a variety of reasons. The main reason being the zone 6 fares. You are also almost guaranteed a seat at Epping, unlike say, Harlow. And a much more frequent service - most stations on the Bishops Stortford line (e.g Roydon, Sawbridgeworth) have three or four trains between 8am and 9 am: Epping has eight |
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 3, 2019 21:15:20 GMT
What I would hope for is that LU and TfL monitor the situation north of Loughton after the changed service have began.
Just to ensure that passengers are not being left behind because of over-crowded trains.
It would be an astonishment if the Hainault - Woodford service experienced severe over-crowding - without another totally unconnected cause.
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Post by stapler on Nov 3, 2019 21:55:48 GMT
Agreed! Would it not be possible to run 4 car trains in off peak times or during night tube even if it was just a few trains per hour that were 4 car rather than all services. Surely having more trains in the depot whilst maintaining the same TPH being able to receive maintence would be beneficial? Off peak services are crowded enough with 8 car trains. It was a very different world when the Underground last ran shorter off peak trains. You’d also have an issue with having enough driving cabs. AFAIK,4-car trains have never been run on the "main line" of the Central Line, though I think they were in the early days of electrification between Loughton or Debden and Epping. (someone may correct me). In the 80s, if I travelled up to London from Loughton after about 1000, there were often half a dozen pax per car, no more, and it wasn't unknown to have a whole car to yourself. Stratford eg was a very quiet station; no 100million a year! |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Nov 4, 2019 9:26:10 GMT
Off peak services are crowded enough with 8 car trains. It was a very different world when the Underground last ran shorter off peak trains. You’d also have an issue with having enough driving cabs. AFAIK,4-car trains have never been run on the "main line" of the Central Line, though I think they were in the early days of electrification between Loughton or Debden and Epping. (someone may correct me). In the 80s, if I travelled up to London from Loughton after about 1000, there were often half a dozen pax per car, no more, and it wasn't unknown to have a whole car to yourself. Stratford eg was a very quiet station; no 100million a year! I managed to find this picture of a 4 car Standard Stock in the 1950s at South Woodford (bound for West Ruislip) lying in a folder on my PC so some degree of uncoupling must have taken place around that time. I must apologise for not knowing it’s origin so if anybody can shed light on the author I’d be happy to credit them. 👍  |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Nov 4, 2019 9:32:11 GMT
....and this one which is credited showing a West Ruislip bound 4 car train at Epping in 1957. đź‘Ť  |
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Post by John Tuthill on Nov 4, 2019 11:12:14 GMT
Off peak services are crowded enough with 8 car trains. It was a very different world when the Underground last ran shorter off peak trains. You’d also have an issue with having enough driving cabs. AFAIK,4-car trains have never been run on the "main line" of the Central Line, though I think they were in the early days of electrification between Loughton or Debden and Epping. (someone may correct me). In the 80s, if I travelled up to London from Loughton after about 1000, there were often half a dozen pax per car, no more, and it wasn't unknown to have a whole car to yourself. Stratford eg was a very quiet station; no 100million a year! When I was a nipper,my grandparents lived at Shepherds Bush. Manys the time on a Sunday night, we'd all stand at the end of the platform,only to have to leg it back when a four car standard stock arrived. Needless to say when the 59/62s arrived they were always 4+4, whenever we travelled from the 'Bush to TCR. I did miss the joltting start and noise from the old stock, and the brightnes of the strip lighs I found a bit too bright.Couldn't wait to get on my much loved 38 at TCR  |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 4, 2019 11:47:57 GMT
The Evening Standard have finally noticed the fuss over WTT70, as ever London's only city-wide newspaper with up to the minute reporting, only five days after the Ilford Recorder had the story and 6 days after TfL's email.
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Post by stapler on Nov 4, 2019 22:39:36 GMT
Thanks for pics of 4-car trains.Nice to be proved wrong! I do remember the Standard stockon the Central Line,but not in detail I do seem to remember,however,there was something odd about the Sunday and bank holiday services, Was that perhaps when 4s ran generally?
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Post by drainrat on Nov 5, 2019 6:32:14 GMT
The posts on twitter are shameful. Simply 'ranting' (sic) with politicains and the local 'press' jumping on the bandwaggon without actually knowing the facts. One stream complained about there being only two trains an hour to Epping in the peak! A local politician then complained about fewer trains to and from Woodford which is again untrue. I do feel for the TfL publicity machine; this is an unenviable task with irrational people who would no doubt complain if fares went down and frequency went up! This is simply a case of those affected shouting loudest. They don't have a vote in the mayoral election anyway! Maybe there's another twitter feed coming.......!? Any chance of a link to the feeds? |
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Post by drainrat on Nov 5, 2019 6:38:30 GMT
I only became aware of the TT change when I was looking at the roster in order to pick 2 leave days that'd give me a long weekend off, and told there was a change due but they had no idea when 🙄
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Post by stapler on Nov 5, 2019 8:09:55 GMT
Folks, is "stepping forward" intended at Loughton to achieve rapid turnround of reversers coming in from the City etc? It would be logical. If so, expect a bus shelter to go up soon at the London end of Loughton platforms?
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Post by drainrat on Nov 5, 2019 8:51:07 GMT
Folks, is "stepping forward" intended at Loughton to achieve rapid turnround of reversers coming in from the City etc? It would be logical. If so, expect a bus shelter to go up soon at the London end of Loughton platforms? Stepping back.... Possibly not, they don't have required facilities to facilitate it |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Nov 5, 2019 18:18:25 GMT
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Post by ijmad on Nov 5, 2019 22:19:06 GMT
As a brief aside, are there any alternative rail services that aren't already overcrowded that could relieve the pressure on what would be a reduced service on the Epping branch of the Central line? Apologies if this is off topic. Loughton is around 7 miles from Chingford (on London Overground) but being outside of Greater London the bus services aren't fantastic and the journey could take 45 minutes on public transport. So not really an option unless you are already driving to one of the Central Line stations. Newbury Park is a 5 minute drive from Seven Kings (TfL rail, soon Elizabeth Line) but again, more than double this on public transport, but still not too bad as a switcher. |
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Post by stapler on Nov 5, 2019 23:01:39 GMT
If you wanted an NR alternative from Loughton, it wouldn't be Cheshunt'
, but Waltham Cross which would be the nearest (other than Chingford, of course). Bus 66 is now operated by Arriva, with better buses that some of the old crates we enjoyed heretofore, but I still does a circuit of the Waltham Abbey council estates,as well as its counter-intuitive Loughton-Debden terminal loop.
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Post by stapler on Nov 5, 2019 23:02:46 GMT
Folks, is "stepping forward" intended at Loughton to achieve rapid turnround of reversers coming in from the City etc? It would be logical. If so, expect a bus shelter to go up soon at the London end of Loughton platforms? Stepping back.... Possibly not, they don't have required facilities to facilitate it What facilities are needed, drainrat? |
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Post by drainrat on Nov 6, 2019 0:56:37 GMT
Rear Cab Clear plungers in order to complete the handover process, otherwise the relieving driver will have to wait for the previous driver to change ends before taking the train.
There is a procedure in place to reverse in the middle road at Loughton to ensure passengers for Epping are cleared before closing the doors and opening them on the WB side, this can take about a minute, followed by an obligatory 4 minute turnaround before departing west. I can't see the need to turnaround as quickly as they do at Elephant & Castle (Bakerloo), Stratford (Jubilee), Bank/Waterloo depot (W & C line). To do so would require a 4-5min headway between each Loughton reverser
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Post by stapler on Nov 6, 2019 8:11:58 GMT
Rear Cab Clear plungers in order to complete the handover process, otherwise the relieving driver will have to wait for the previous driver to change ends before taking the train. There is a procedure in place to reverse in the middle road at Loughton to ensure passengers for Epping are cleared before closing the doors and opening them on the WB side, this can take about a minute, followed by an obligatory 4 minute turnaround before departing west. I can't see the need to turnaround as quickly as they do at Elephant & Castle (Bakerloo), Stratford (Jubilee), Bank/Waterloo depot (W & C line). To do so would require a 4-5min headway between each Loughton reverser Most helpful; thank you DR. I'd never heard of rear cab clear plungers Do you have any feel as to how long it takes to reverse a train at **Debden**? I'm assuming longer than 5-6 minutes, because of tipping out and walking through the train in the turnback road? And I presume the same would apply at Newbury Park... |
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Post by commuter on Nov 6, 2019 10:55:48 GMT
Arnos Grove doesn’t have R.C.C plungers yet performs stepping back during the peak in the middle platform.
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Post by ijmad on Nov 6, 2019 11:08:54 GMT
If you wanted an NR alternative from Loughton, it wouldn't be Cheshunt' , but Waltham Cross which would be the nearest (other than Chingford, of course). Bus 66 is now operated by Arriva, with better buses that some of the old crates we enjoyed heretofore, but I still does a circuit of the Waltham Abbey council estates,as well as its counter-intuitive Loughton-Debden terminal loop. I meant to write Chingford. Oops  |
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Post by drainrat on Nov 6, 2019 13:37:16 GMT
Rear Cab Clear plungers in order to complete the handover process, otherwise the relieving driver will have to wait for the previous driver to change ends before taking the train. There is a procedure in place to reverse in the middle road at Loughton to ensure passengers for Epping are cleared before closing the doors and opening them on the WB side, this can take about a minute, followed by an obligatory 4 minute turnaround before departing west. I can't see the need to turnaround as quickly as they do at Elephant & Castle (Bakerloo), Stratford (Jubilee), Bank/Waterloo depot (W & C line). To do so would require a 4-5min headway between each Loughton reverser Most helpful; thank you DR. I'd never heard of rear cab clear plungers Do you have any feel as to how long it takes to reverse a train at **Debden**? I'm assuming longer than 5-6 minutes, because of tipping out and walking through the train in the turnback road? And I presume the same would apply at Newbury Park... The turnarounds at both are between 8-15 minutes Arnos Grove doesn’t have R.C.C plungers yet performs stepping back during the peak in the middle platform. Probably because the headways are longer than 4 mins. Anything less requires a rear cab clear procedure, hence a plunger. Wherever it's an in/out dwell, can be 20-30 seconds at Bank W&C line, the RCC is a requirement |
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Post by scheduler on Nov 22, 2019 20:10:43 GMT
A siding reverser requires tipping out time - depending on intended number of platform staff this could be anything from 1 (2 platform staff assisting, e.g. Queen's Park) to 4 minutes (driver only minimum), then the time to shunt to the reversing road (usually 1 minute), then the minimum reversal time (5 minutes) then 1 minute to shunt to departure platform. All this is the reason why middle road reversing platforms or bays or similar are a good idea. Bakerloo at Stonebridge Park and Harrow & Wealdstone really suffers for the lack of them. North Greenwich, Tower Hill, Barking have great examples of their usefulness.
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Post by stapler on Nov 22, 2019 21:59:45 GMT
A siding reverser requires tipping out time - depending on intended number of platform staff this could be anything from 1 (2 platform staff assisting, e.g. Queen's Park) to 4 minutes (driver only minimum), then the time to shunt to the reversing road (usually 1 minute), then the minimum reversal time (5 minutes) then 1 minute to shunt to departure platform. All this is the reason why middle road reversing platforms or bays or similar are a good idea. Bakerloo at Stonebridge Park and Harrow & Wealdstone really suffers for the lack of them. North Greenwich, Tower Hill, Barking have great examples of their usefulness. 8-9 minutes seems about the average for a train in service at Debden |
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 24, 2019 22:31:05 GMT
Somewhere, and I think it was in this thread, someone mentioned seeing a Central line diagrammatic map showing the Hainault - Woodford shuttle. A week or so ago I interchanged from the Northern to the Central lines at Bank station and at the top of the up spiral staircase I saw this map... a portent of things to come, next year 2020! Simon  Cent-Line-Map-BankStn-P1610677 Cent-Line-Map-BankStn-P1610676 |
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