metman
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5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
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Post by metman on Oct 28, 2019 19:11:51 GMT
When the Waterloo and City 1992 stock was delivered it was tested in 8 car formations on the Central Line with A-B+B-A+A-B+B-A formations (although in reality they are E-F on the Waterloo and City). This was not in passenger service but it is the only time I believe such a formation has been seen on the Central.
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Post by stapler on Oct 28, 2019 21:49:56 GMT
At the present people travelling in the peaks from Chigwell and GH to London get an inner rail train if they're in a hurry and/or don't mind standing on an already overloaded train at Woodford. If they're not pressed for time and/or like a seat, they take an outer rail through train.
The latter option will disappear.
Won't that just mean the "main line" trains will get even more overloaded at Woodford?
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Post by jamesb on Oct 28, 2019 23:04:32 GMT
At the present people travelling in the peaks from Chigwell and GH to London get an inner rail train if they're in a hurry and/or don't mind standing on an already overloaded train at Woodford. If they're not pressed for time and/or like a seat, they take an outer rail through train. The latter option will disappear. Won't that just mean the "main line" trains will get even more overloaded at Woodford? A few questions: - At Roding Valley, the entrance to the inner rail (Woodford-bound) platform is near the back of the train, in the covered part of the station. Would the four car trains draw up to the signal at the front end of the platform? If it is raining, snowing etc. that isn't ideal. - How many four car trains would be required to run the shuttle service? - If one of the four car trains becomes defective, unlike the present situation (where different trains run to Woodford via Hainault, or London via Hainault on the outer rail), would the Hainault - Woodford service be disrupted for a longer period - since it wouldn't just be an isolated gap)? |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 29, 2019 8:28:51 GMT
If they're not pressed for time and/or like a seat, they take an outer rail through train. The latter option will disappear. Won't that just mean the "main line" trains will get even more overloaded at Woodford? They are still more likely to get a seat at Hainault than at Woodford. |
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Post by superteacher on Oct 29, 2019 8:56:00 GMT
If they're not pressed for time and/or like a seat, they take an outer rail through train. The latter option will disappear. Won't that just mean the "main line" trains will get even more overloaded at Woodford? They are still more likely to get a seat at Hainault than at Woodford. Pretty much guaranteed. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 29, 2019 9:24:28 GMT
At the present people travelling in the peaks from Chigwell and GH to London get an inner rail train if they're in a hurry and/or don't mind standing on an already overloaded train at Woodford. If they're not pressed for time and/or like a seat, they take an outer rail through train. The latter option will disappear. Won't that just mean the "main line" trains will get even more overloaded at Woodford? A few questions: - At Roding Valley, the entrance to the inner rail (Woodford-bound) platform is near the back of the train, in the covered part of the station. Would the four car trains draw up to the signal at the front end of the platform? If it is raining, snowing etc. that isn't ideal. - How many four car trains would be required to run the shuttle service? - If one of the four car trains becomes defective, unlike the present situation (where different trains run to Woodford via Hainault, or London via Hainault on the outer rail), would the Hainault - Woodford service be disrupted for a longer period - since it wouldn't just be an isolated gap)? The current timetable has an end to end time of ten minutes and a train every twenty minutes, so two units should cover it - certainly three. If two eight car trains are split that leaves one four cat train spare to cover any gaps - or an eight car could be extended beyond Hainault. As for the "wrong end of the platform" situation, you have to balance the need to engineer different stopping points (and, if driving on manual, the possibility of a driver of an 8 car stopping at the 4 car point - the converse is not safety critical) with the convenience of the passengers and the effect on timekeeping of having to wait for passengers to walk from where they are waiting to where the train has stopped. |
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metman
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5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,421
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Post by metman on Oct 29, 2019 10:59:00 GMT
Definitely and the CSDE (correct side door enable) probably kicks in at the platform end although I don’t know the Centra well. When the A stock was still in service the occasional 4 car train to and from Chesham always stopped at the extreme front of the platform.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 29, 2019 13:38:47 GMT
Unless they fit CSDE loops halfway down the platforms the 4-car trains will have to stop at the same place the 8-car trains do.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 29, 2019 14:56:47 GMT
The more I think about this, the worse an idea it appears to be.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 29, 2019 16:03:02 GMT
Unless they fit CSDE loops halfway down the platforms the 4-car trains will have to stop at the same place the 8-car trains do. How big a job is it to fit CSDE loops? If it's a quick and easy job then there is a much higher chance of it happening than if it's expensive and time consuming. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 29, 2019 16:29:03 GMT
The more I think about this, the worse an idea it appears to be. From the bulletin:-
"These changes are required as we need to remove tow trains at a time from passenger service, as they are improved as part of CLIP"
The alternative is to try to maintain a 78 train peak service with two trains missing. |
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Post by superteacher on Oct 29, 2019 16:41:33 GMT
The more I think about this, the worse an idea it appears to be. From the bulletin:-
"These changes are required as we need to remove tow trains at a time from passenger service, as they are improved as part of CLIP"
The alternative is to try to maintain a 78 train peak service with two trains missing. They struggle to run a 76 train service now, let alone with two more trains unavailable! WTT53 was a 71 train timetable which managed a through loop service and 8tph to Epping in the peak. Quite why they can’t do the same (and have a few more Epping services) with 76 trains is a mystery. Are there any changes to the inter peak service levels? Did they consider reducing the service to the branches and introducing more short workings in order to give some relief to the rolling stock? |
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Post by stapler on Oct 29, 2019 21:50:07 GMT
From the bulletin:-
"These changes are required as we need to remove tow trains at a time from passenger service, as they are improved as part of CLIP"
The alternative is to try to maintain a 78 train peak service with two trains missing. They struggle to run a 76 train service now, let alone with two more trains unavailable! WTT53 was a 71 train timetable which managed a through loop service and 8tph to Epping in the peak. Quite why they can’t do the same (and have a few more Epping services) with 76 trains is a mystery. Are there any changes to the inter peak service levels? Did they consider reducing the service to the branches and introducing more short workings in order to give some relief to the rolling stock? Wasn't the trouble with WTT53 (if I remember correctly; a long time ago) that there was unacceptable gaps and thus overcrowding Debden-Woodford AND passenger throughput has increased greatly since then? Particularly at Epping to where half Essex drives to get Sadiq's cheap fares... |
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Post by superteacher on Oct 29, 2019 22:16:02 GMT
No, WTT53 was the first to use the current loop service with trains running to Woodford via Hainault. It was the previous timetable that had the issues you refer to.
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Post by jimbo on Oct 30, 2019 4:00:52 GMT
What does a shuttle service save? 10 minute run each way means two trains to provide 3tph service including reversing times, very inefficiently. Will need to have a 4-car spare in depot for change-overs, so will use three 4-car trains. It seems to me that current through trains avoid reversing time at Hainault platform, and instead take it at Woodford siding. By running through they therefore have 20 minutes extra run time, which can be covered by one 8-car train. So looks like an extra 4-car train required to me, but 4 more cab cars to be servicable! Any thoughts?
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Post by superteacher on Oct 30, 2019 6:53:47 GMT
What does a shuttle service save? 10 minute run each way means two trains to provide 3tph service including reversing times, very inefficiently. Will need to have a 4-car spare in depot for change-overs, so will use three 4-car trains. It seems to me that current through trains avoid reversing time at Hainault platform, and instead take it at Woodford siding. By running through they therefore have 20 minutes extra run time, which can be covered by one 8-car train. So looks like an extra 4-car train required to me, but 4 more cab cars to be servicable! Any thoughts? Yes. Going back to WTT53, 10 trains were used to operate a 20 min Ealing to Hainault service, whereas 11 were used for Ealing to Woodford via Hainault. So only one extra 8 car train is needed for the loop service. |
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Post by jamesb on Oct 30, 2019 20:51:57 GMT
With my crystal commuter ball, I don't see this going down very well, but I could be wrong. The plan seems to assume that everything will run like clockwork, and no trains will be cancelled etc. In reality, that isn't the case.
It is a step backwards, rather than a step forwards even it is is a temporary one.
More people use Woodford - Hainault than ever, albeit clustered around a few specific times. We were encouraged to do so, when Roding Valley et Co. was re-zoned into zone 4. It resulted in my street and many surrounding streets having parking restrictions, because commuters were parking there to benefit from a lower season ticket price for starting their journey's in zone 4. Probably more than touch in and out (travelcards, season tickets etc.)
Nobody who actually uses the service seems to know anything about the impending change, at least from my casual conversations at RV. The trains will stop generally the other end from the entrance to the platform, the trains from Woodford westbound are very busy anyway, it is inevitable that one of the 4 car trains will become defective at some point, and at very specific times Woodford in the morning peak will become even busier.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 30, 2019 23:16:14 GMT
With my crystal commuter ball, I don't see this going down very well, but I could be wrong. The plan seems to assume that everything will run like clockwork, and no trains will be cancelled etc. In reality, that isn't the case. It is a step backwards, rather than a step forwards even it is is a temporary one. More people use Woodford - Hainault than ever, albeit clustered around a few specific times. We were encouraged to do so, when Roding Valley et Co. was re-zoned into zone 4. It resulted in my street and many surrounding streets having parking restrictions, because commuters were parking there to benefit from a lower season ticket price for starting their journey's in zone 4. Probably more than touch in and out (travelcards, season tickets etc.) Nobody who actually uses the service seems to know anything about the impending change, at least from my casual conversations at RV. The trains will stop generally the other end from the entrance to the platform, the trains from Woodford westbound are very busy anyway, it is inevitable that one of the 4 car trains will become defective at some point, and at very specific times Woodford in the morning peak will become even busier. It’s already kicked off on Twitter - folks are, shall we say, less than happy! |
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Post by ijmad on Oct 30, 2019 23:44:43 GMT
I wonder if these changes would be necessary if Crossrail were open. Presumably cutting a few services to Ealing Broadway would have been possible had it started running in 2018 or even this year.
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Post by stapler on Oct 31, 2019 17:51:16 GMT
Some people are saying there will be fewer trains Epping-Loughton in the **morning** peak too. Is this so?
Are the numbers of Debden reversers changed?
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Post by superteacher on Oct 31, 2019 18:00:32 GMT
Some people are saying there will be fewer trains Epping-Loughton in the **morning** peak too. Is this so? Are the numbers of Debden reversers changed? Yes this is true. From what I can gather, there won't be any Debden reversers, although I haven't seen a draft copy of the timetable. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Oct 31, 2019 19:59:40 GMT
Some people are saying there will be fewer trains Epping-Loughton in the **morning** peak too. Is this so? Are the numbers of Debden reversers changed? Not according to the information we've been given. Officially "Reduction in the evening peak of trains to Debden, Theydon Bois and Epping from 11tph to 8tph" |
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Post by stapler on Oct 31, 2019 22:43:43 GMT
When do we expect the new timetable to be available? There is a 5000 strong petition against the changes, not that it'll impress TFL!
Debden is obviously a less convenient intermediate reversing point than Loughton, especially since removal of the second centre road in ?1983.But it does have a significant traffic, especially since the absence of parking controls mean that people CPZ'd out of Epping now drive there from all over Essex.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Nov 1, 2019 5:36:42 GMT
They have to produce the new duty rosters at least 28 days in advance so I guess we'll get the new timetables some time around Christmas.
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Post by goldenarrow on Nov 1, 2019 17:33:01 GMT
In response to the petition started by a Epping District councillor, we are graced with another email this time from the Head of Line Operations. Thankfully this one cuts a bit more mustard with some chatter amongst petitioners not believing that maintenance work is the real reason.
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Post by gjs on Nov 1, 2019 22:26:21 GMT
The posts on twitter are shameful. Simply 'ranting' (sic) with politicains and the local 'press' jumping on the bandwaggon without actually knowing the facts. One stream complained about there being only two trains an hour to Epping in the peak! A local politician then complained about fewer trains to and from Woodford which is again untrue. I do feel for the TfL publicity machine; this is an unenviable task with irrational people who would no doubt complain if fares went down and frequency went up! This is simply a case of those affected shouting loudest. They don't have a vote in the mayoral election anyway! Maybe there's another twitter feed coming.......!?
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Post by stapler on Nov 2, 2019 8:12:42 GMT
The local politicians were warned about this a year ago, and did nothing. Hey-ho, they'll all (except those in Loughton) have something else on their minds come 12/12.
Actually, BTW, many of the people affected on the Loop do have a mayoral vote, as the line is the GLA boundary for much of its length, and all of the GLC estate near Grange Hill was moved out of Chigwell UD, and went into Redbridge.
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Post by underover on Nov 2, 2019 19:45:11 GMT
I find it incredible that people can moan about train service being reduced in the short term when in the long term it will hopefully improve it (more trains available for service etc). Maintenance has to happen at some point...
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Post by superteacher on Nov 2, 2019 22:49:10 GMT
I find it incredible that people can moan about train service being reduced in the short term when in the long term it will hopefully improve it (more trains available for service etc). Maintenance has to happen at some point... Not so incredible if you already suffer overcrowded trains. |
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Post by rtt1928 on Nov 3, 2019 11:56:56 GMT
As a brief aside, are there any alternative rail services that aren't already overcrowded that could relieve the pressure on what would be a reduced service on the Epping branch of the Central line?
Apologies if this is off topic.
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