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Post by snoggle on Feb 6, 2019 14:24:24 GMT
It is unclear what happens at weekends given the need for the 378s to have maintenance attention. Perhaps the solution here would be to reduce one other unit - and use it on GOBLIN during weekends only. It is a small loss of weekday capacity elsewhere, but would allow better weekend service on GOBLIN route. I don't think TfL can release another unit. They are basically forcing Arriva Rail London and Bombardier to run on wafer thin maintenance margins across the entire non West Anglia Overground routes as it is. This sort of operation is not really sustainable for a long period of time. It only takes one accident or one mildly serious unit failure that can't be resolved quickly and then there's virtually no cover for a fleet of 57 trains. That's a rather silly approach to take given most fleets work on around 12-15% spare cover. There's also little variation these days between the peak and off peak service level so it's not as if trains go back to depot in the inter peak where they can receive some attention. I've seen a speculative remark elsewhere suggesting the 710s may not be certified for use for at least another 4 months. Chuck in driver training time on top of that and you're looking at August or possibly September before a 710 runs in passenger service. Trying to run the GOBLIN with 3 4-car units daily for 6+ months with only overnight maintenance attention doesn't look a very wise thing to do. Something has to give and cutting the weekend service is the only real option to ensure the 378s receive the required maintenance attention. |
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Feb 6, 2019 15:09:26 GMT
Would have been cool to see the vivarail units certified for this route. D stock to the rescue  . |
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Post by melikepie on Feb 6, 2019 20:27:09 GMT
With 3 Class 378s on the line on their own, what will be the basic off peak weekday and weekend frequency per hour?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 6, 2019 20:47:18 GMT
Given that the standard weekday service usually requires six units, it's likely that three units will be able to operate at half that frequency. Although the 378s are quicker accelerating than the 172s the difference will not be enough to make rewriting the timetable worthwhile - especially since the line takes a lot of freight.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 9, 2019 23:47:49 GMT
The second 4-car unit (378 206) expected to be on test on the GOBLIN on Sunday 9/2/19. Presumably in the afternoon when the eng works possession is lifted.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 10, 2019 1:28:18 GMT
Presumably you mean Sunday 10 as February doesn't have a Sunday 9 until next year, and I'm sure everybody is hoping the 710s will be in service by then!
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 10, 2019 12:21:36 GMT
Presumably you mean Sunday 10 as February doesn't have a Sunday 9 until next year, and I'm sure everybody is hoping the 710s will be in service by then! Hoping, but perhaps not expecting. |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Feb 10, 2019 15:12:43 GMT
A dull observation: had the GOBLin been extended to five car length instead of four, there would have been just that tiny bit more flexibility for now as a separate short length sub fleet wouldn't be needed.
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Post by dazz285 on Feb 10, 2019 15:55:26 GMT
I believe that the second 378 did indeed go out for a test run.
Monday & Tuesday 2 class 378's are booked to run a service on the Gobs..
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Post by alpinejohn on Feb 10, 2019 17:11:06 GMT
A dull observation: had the GOBLin been extended to five car length instead of four, there would have been just that tiny bit more flexibility for now as a separate short length sub fleet wouldn't be needed. Actually a valid observation. However I think we got the best we could hope for given the financial constraints currently on TFL Once you decide to mobilise staff to extend platform lengths, at many GOBLIN stations the cost to add an extra car length seemed likely to be far less than the cost to having to add the extra capacity later especially as many platforms were previously able to accommodate far longer trains. Unfortunately I think going beyond 4 cars was a victim of "value engineering". If you look at YouTube videos showing drivers eye view trips on Goblin, it looks like moving beyond 4 car length trains would involve resolving some very significant expenditure problems which were largely dodged by sticking to 4 cars. I suspect that once the line gets its full complement of 710s in service that passenger growth will surge providing TFL with a solid business case to move to 5 car trains on GOBLIN however that is a few years off. I doubt you can cheaply extend the reversing platform at Gospel Oak without either major bridge widening expense and moving signalling and recently installed OHLE masts at one end, or at the other end moving buffer stops alarmingly close to the main line. Further along the route extending some existing platforms may be impossible without the final car overhanging and blocking adjacent junctions, with the most likely solution being to abandon and relocate platforms to perhaps less convenient sites. Obviously anything can be fixed with enough cash, but in the current climate what is really needed now is 710s! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 10, 2019 18:02:26 GMT
I doubt you can cheaply extend the reversing platform at Gospel Oak without either major bridge widening expense and moving signalling and recently installed OHLE masts at one end, or at the other end moving buffer stops alarmingly close to the main line. Further along the route extending some existing platforms may be impossible without the final car overhanging and blocking adjacent junctions, With the exception of Gospel Oak, selective door opening would solve this. |
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Post by silenthunter on Feb 10, 2019 18:32:26 GMT
You would need to install the equipment for that of course.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 10, 2019 19:57:53 GMT
A dull observation: had the GOBLin been extended to five car length instead of four, there would have been just that tiny bit more flexibility for now as a separate short length sub fleet wouldn't be needed. Actually a valid observation. However I think we got the best we could hope for given the financial constraints currently on TFL Once you decide to mobilise staff to extend platform lengths, at many GOBLIN stations the cost to add an extra car length seemed likely to be far less than the cost to having to add the extra capacity later especially as many platforms were previously able to accommodate far longer trains. Unfortunately I think going beyond 4 cars was a victim of "value engineering". If you look at YouTube videos showing drivers eye view trips on Goblin, it looks like moving beyond 4 car length trains would involve resolving some very significant expenditure problems which were largely dodged by sticking to 4 cars. I suspect that once the line gets its full complement of 710s in service that passenger growth will surge providing TFL with a solid business case to move to 5 car trains on GOBLIN however that is a few years off. I doubt you can cheaply extend the reversing platform at Gospel Oak without either major bridge widening expense and moving signalling and recently installed OHLE masts at one end, or at the other end moving buffer stops alarmingly close to the main line. Further along the route extending some existing platforms may be impossible without the final car overhanging and blocking adjacent junctions, with the most likely solution being to abandon and relocate platforms to perhaps less convenient sites. Obviously anything can be fixed with enough cash, but in the current climate what is really needed now is 710s! A couple of comments - there certainly are problematic locations for 5 car trains. As you rightly say Gospel Oak is probably the worst with South Tottenham not too far behind. Blackhorse Road (BHO) would also need attention and while not impossible in terms of length there would be more significant issues in terms of platform width plus capacity on the overbridge and staircase. Crowding is already pretty bad at peak times and longer trains will drop ever larger numbers on to the narrow platforms. TfL *really* should have used the blockades to provide some more platform width at BHO as a mitigation against passenger growth. Fixing the staircase issue would be more problematic given how lift towers have been positioned. - I think it's TfL's stated preference that they would like to move to 5 tph before they consider lengthening platforms. They may even get a freebie train or two out of Bombardier that would facilitate this - assuming the 710s ever run in passenger service. TfL believe there is just enough signalling capacity on the line to accommodate 5 tph and the freight workings. It's not known if Network Rail agree with this or not. |
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Feb 20, 2019 21:28:17 GMT
Saw a tweet just now and, as previously mentioned, the final 378 to be modified for the GOBLIN - 378209 - has now been entered into service. The image below was embedded with the tweet. I assume it's the aforementioned train but I can't quite see. As whistlekiller2000 said... They've had it easy for far too long. A good dose of detective work will sharpen them all up........  
(Tap the image for a larger version, not that it's any clearer  ) |
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Post by alpinejohn on Feb 21, 2019 13:22:09 GMT
Perhaps the solution here would be to reduce one other unit - and use it on GOBLIN during weekends only. It is a small loss of weekday capacity elsewhere, but would allow better weekend service on GOBLIN route. I don't think TfL can release another unit. They are basically forcing Arriva Rail London and Bombardier to run on wafer thin maintenance margins across the entire non West Anglia Overground routes as it is. This sort of operation is not really sustainable for a long period of time. It only takes one accident or one mildly serious unit failure that can't be resolved quickly and then there's virtually no cover for a fleet of 57 trains. That's a rather silly approach to take given most fleets work on around 12-15% spare cover. There's also little variation these days between the peak and off peak service level so it's not as if trains go back to depot in the inter peak where they can receive some attention. I've seen a speculative remark elsewhere suggesting the 710s may not be certified for use for at least another 4 months. Chuck in driver training time on top of that and you're looking at August or possibly September before a 710 runs in passenger service. Trying to run the GOBLIN with 3 4-car units daily for 6+ months with only overnight maintenance attention doesn't look a very wise thing to do. Something has to give and cutting the weekend service is the only real option to ensure the 378s receive the required maintenance attention. Prophetic words - something has indeed had to give... The latest TFL weekend travel update includes. "On Saturday 23 and Sunday 24 February, there will be a reduced service between Gospel Oak and Barking. Trains will run every 15 to 30 minutes all day on Saturday and after 12:30 on Sunday. Trains will run every 15 to 30 minutes between Gospel Oak and South Tottenham only on Sunday until 12:30. ... A reduced weekend service will continue on this route until further notice due to a lack of available trains. We will continue to run a full timetable on the busier weekday service." Obviously the weekday service needs to be prioritised but what exactly is happening on Sundays? Anyone able to shed light on this as the official statement has not been drafted with clarity in mind.. My read is that on Saturdays and after midday on Sunday there will be a reduced service operating every 15 or 30 minutes. But what is happening on Sunday morning? Is there no service at all between South Tottenham and Barking - or is the full normal weekend service operating between Barking-South Tottenham until midday on Sunday? That press release could imply either conclusion. Hey ho at least they tried. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 21, 2019 13:44:57 GMT
It was the same last weekend.
Leyton Midland Road was shut at 9am Sunday morning with replacement buses running between Walthamstow Central and Barking.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 21, 2019 17:25:03 GMT
Prophetic words - something has indeed had to give... The latest TFL weekend travel update includes. "On Saturday 23 and Sunday 24 February, there will be a reduced service between Gospel Oak and Barking. Trains will run every 15 to 30 minutes all day on Saturday and after 12:30 on Sunday. Trains will run every 15 to 30 minutes between Gospel Oak and South Tottenham only on Sunday until 12:30. ... A reduced weekend service will continue on this route until further notice due to a lack of available trains. We will continue to run a full timetable on the busier weekday service." Obviously the weekday service needs to be prioritised but what exactly is happening on Sundays? Anyone able to shed light on this as the official statement has not been drafted with clarity in mind.. My read is that on Saturdays and after midday on Sunday there will be a reduced service operating every 15 or 30 minutes. But what is happening on Sunday morning? Is there no service at all between South Tottenham and Barking - or is the full normal weekend service operating between Barking-South Tottenham until midday on Sunday? That press release could imply either conclusion. Hey ho at least they tried. To be fair not that prophetic. We've had the funny 15-30 min interval service for many weeks now. This is to try to preserve the weekday service by releasing two trains for maintenance at weekends. If that principle applies when the 172s have gone then 1 378 in service means a train every 90 minutes! You might as well not bother. Even 2 trains in service is a train every 45 minutes - again why bother with such a shambles? We are only 3 weeks away from the 172s going and I doubt we will be told anything about the future service level before the Thursday or Friday before they actually leave. TfL seem very reluctant to give people decent advance warning so they can plan how they will commute once the service has to be reduced. There are certainly no more trains they can pull out of a "magic hat" to replace the 172s. The eastern end of the line has also had multiple Sunday and half Sunday closures recently. There is a major blockade on the GEML this weekend for Crossrail works and that often also knocks out the eastern end of the GOBLIN. Sometimes NR undertake "opportunity works" on the GOBLIN when there are other closures. Sometimes the eastern end of the route through Woodgrange Park is used for engineering train access. On one recent weekend the S Tott - G Oak service was reduced to half hourly rather than the mixed 15-30 headway. The TfL travel info notices are often not well worded in terms of separating out the reduced frequency from lack of trains and the impact or otherwise of engineering works. |
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Post by Tomcakes on Feb 21, 2019 22:23:53 GMT
The severe delays on the Goblin seem to now be so common that even when they are advertised at the bottom of the information boards, the official designation is "Good Service"...
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Post by alpinejohn on Feb 22, 2019 8:11:59 GMT
The severe delays on the Goblin seem to now be so common that even when they are advertised at the bottom of the information boards, the official designation is "Good Service"... I tend to agree with the sentiment that if the service on a line drops below a half hourly service then most passengers (especially for commuter routes in any metropolitan area - not just London) would fail to see that as a "Good Service". However in the world of DFT - provided the rail operator (in the case of Goblin - Arriva Rail London/TFL) run most if not all the "scheduled" services then it qualifies as providing a "good service" even if in truth they have just massively cut back the "scheduled service frequency". However this exchange is not really a function of 4 car 378s, and rather off topic - is their a more general "Goblin" thread where this might be better relocated or should a new thread be created? |
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Post by superteacher on Feb 23, 2019 10:34:27 GMT
Had a ride on the Goblin yesterday and managed to nab a 378. What a difference electric traction makes! Felt odd because all I’ve ever known on that line are DMU’s.
Did the 378’s have the Goblin destinations in the PIS (Passenger Information System) prior to their use on the line, or did they have to be added?
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Post by snoggle on Feb 23, 2019 10:54:40 GMT
Had a ride on the Goblin yesterday and managed to nab a 378. What a difference electric traction makes! Felt odd because all I’ve ever known on that line are DMU’s. Did the 378’s have the Goblin destinations in the PIS (Passenger Information System) prior to their use on the line, or did they have to be added? It is a very odd sensation, as you say, to be on an EMU rather than DMU. Apparently the 710s are extremely nippy so the difference will be even more marked when passengers are eventually allowed on one. I understand the GOBLIN was always in the 378's PIS. There is that infamous video on Youtube where the PIS had a "nervous breakdown" and went through every single message in the system including the GOBLIN stations. |
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Post by silenthunter on Feb 23, 2019 11:30:55 GMT
Do they have the Romford to Upminster stations in there as well?
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Post by snoggle on Feb 23, 2019 14:32:00 GMT
Do they have the Romford to Upminster stations in there as well? Short answer - don't know. My guess is not given that West Anglia was added to Overground much later and there's never been an expectation that rolling stock from "North London Railways" lines would be used on West Anglia and vice versa. I would expect the 710s for West Anglia to include Romford - Upminster. I've no idea whether the 710s will have PIS info for all Overground routes or whether there will be some element of geographic restriction. In theory the GOBLIN / Watford ones could run on West Anglia if needed. Obviously the West Anglia ones would have limited coverage on the "North London Railways" lines because of the remaining third rail sections including for some access routes to Willesden depot. It might be easier for Bombardier and TfL to have one PIS script for 710s that covers all routes / all stations. Keeps things simple even if some of the script may never be used in normal circumstances. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Feb 23, 2019 17:19:37 GMT
Do they have the Romford to Upminster stations in there as well? is indeed as usual correct. The Lea Valley Lines and the Romford-Upminster shuttle announcements are stored on separate drives being effectively a legacy system from the previous operator which does the job it needs to. The arrival of the new fleet may result in the interworking of LO stock being reconsidered but that's well into the future. |
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Post by cudsn15 on Mar 1, 2019 10:28:37 GMT
London Overground status this morning: "London Overground: Minor delays between Watford Junction and Euston due to a shortage of trains" ...
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 9, 2019 12:28:30 GMT
This really puts it into perspective.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 9, 2019 22:53:59 GMT
I replied to Richard with this message:
I am thinking of the Northern Heights services to Alexandra Palace and Mill Hill East - Edgware.
Admittedly the situation is truly dire but at least the Goblin passengers have a reasonable expectation of their new trains 'eventually'. Northern Heights passengers have to contend with buses on congested roads which have also been slowed by 20mph speed limits.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 16, 2019 0:08:41 GMT
So that's it - goodbye class 172s on the GOBLIN and hello to a half hourly service for the foreseeable future with 3 4-car class 378 units. The 172s go off lease with Arriva London Rail so will probably trundle to Ilford over the next few days for overhaul and addition of accessible toilets. TfL are apparently going to try to run a half hourly seven days a week but we'll see how long that lasts. Supplementary bus links kick in next week but will be further amended in a week's time when single deck buses become available. Single deckers can get closer to some GOBLIN stations as they can get under the low clearance bridges that feature on this rail route.
There is a suggestion, and I put it no more strongly than that, on another forum that a 4th class 378 will be converted to 4 car length. There's no comment on this anywhere else so I'm treating it with due caution. Apart from giving some operational resilience for the GOBLIN I'm not sure I see the point. It will run the rest of the class 378 fleet very tight indeed and it's already fragile enough given recent breakdowns causing disruption on other Overground routes.
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Post by redbond on Mar 16, 2019 11:14:47 GMT
I highly doubt that a fourth 378 will be sent over, there is already way too many trains being taken out of service due to faults, causing cancellations and fines due to no train to be able to swap with. Bombardier can't take the financial penalties from TfL.
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Post by mcmaddog on Mar 16, 2019 11:43:12 GMT
Maybe just a spare for Goblin and restricted to NewCross-Dalston duties due to it having less capacity?
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