rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 23, 2018 15:23:47 GMT
It would appear that a car has been removed from a 378 and this set is now being tested in its short format. Does this suggest that we will soon electric trains operating in passenger service on the GOBLin? A number of posts pertaining to shortened class 378 trains have been merged into this thread from the class 710 introduction thread: districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/29536/class-710-delivery-entry-service - MoreToJack |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 24, 2018 0:30:10 GMT
Does this suggest that we will soon electric trains operating in passenger service on the GOBLin? It seems there is some sort of plan to try to fill in for the impending loss of more 172 (from Jan onwards). I can't see that TfL will be able to find many spare 378s to shorten as the fleet utilisation is already tight with trains away for refurb. This means any use of 378s is not any sort of "solution" - it's a sticking plaster and a likely short term one at that. If, as planned, a 172 leaves every 2-3 weeks from Jan onwards [1] then you've really got no meaningful weekday service from the end of Jan as I'm sceptical TfL could find more than 2 378s to shorten. Network Rail will not rewrite the timetable to allow a lower but regular headway service using fewer trains which means we'd have 30-45 min gaps on weekdays. That's hopeless and unworkable in the peaks even if you have a 378 running - it would be packed full and beyond if there was a 30 min gap in the peaks. Bombardier have to get the 710s running but no one has a clue when that will be possible. [1] this is on the basis that West Midlands Trains need all the 172s at Tyseley by March 2019. AIUI that's the working assumption between TfL and WM Trains concerning the sublease. This gives WM Trains time to get the trains overhauled and fitted with toilets before use from May 2019. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 26, 2018 19:37:55 GMT
I have been told that some Class 378s might be switched from the North London Line to the GOBLIN when the 172s go to West Midlands.
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Post by goldenarrow on Dec 26, 2018 20:30:50 GMT
378232 has been doing the rounds recently over the GOBLIN. Many seem to think that the Capitalstars won't be pressed in till the 1st/2nd week of the new year presumably because thats when the scales tip.
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 27, 2018 0:37:48 GMT
I wonder where the trains will come from, given that existing services are not exactly empty!
It might be possible to remove one from the NLL if trains are reversed at Gunnersbury with the District line taking the strain between there and Richmond. But apart from that, ?
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Post by MoreToJack on Dec 27, 2018 7:17:14 GMT
I wonder where the trains will come from, given that existing services are not exactly empty! It might be possible to remove one from the NLL if trains are reversed at Gunnersbury with the District line taking the strain between there and Richmond. But apart from that, ? I understand that the train shortened so far has come by altering the refurbishment plans. Further units will come from cancellations. Re-writing timetables and crew diagrams isn't going to happen. |
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 27, 2018 22:36:53 GMT
Well whatever is or is not done, there is no easy answer that is also quick, affordable and pain-free, so somewhere along the line there will be people inconvenienced.
The rail industry is today reeling after a report revealing the worst punctuality for many years. I would not be surprised if this topic drowns out the problems being experienced by the late entering in to service of the new fleet.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 27, 2018 22:51:42 GMT
378232 has been doing the rounds recently over the GOBLIN. Many seem to think that the Capitalstars won't be pressed in till the 1st/2nd week of the new year presumably because thats when the scales tip. Has it? When out of curiosity given half the line has been shut for a week for planned engineering works / Xmas non running days? I have seen elsewhere that 232 has been hauled to Silwood sidings - quite why it's gone there is anyone's guess. Makes no sense to me given 378s routinely run on both AC and DC so can't see why it would need to be tested in South London. Surely they could test it on the Watford DC line if they needed to? If there is to a conversion of a few 378s to 4 car then I'm astonished that TfL have opted to do this. I thought they'd confine the misery to the GOBLIN and not reduce services elsewhere. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2018 1:44:06 GMT
Although terminating at Gunnersbury would make sense for the Richmond branch to ease the number of 378s needed to run a frequent service, would it be possible to decrease the service on the Watford DC lines to free up more 378s? A shuttle from Willesden Low level to Euston to replace half of the regular Watford Jct. - Euston services would surely give the GOBLIN at least one extra train? The only stations that would suffer significantly would be Headstone Lane, Hatch End, Carpender’s Park and Watford High Street and surely a shuttle could be arranged between Harrow and Wealdstone and Watford Junction anyway if the reduction in TpH was too serious.
I know the West London Line from Shepherd’s Bush to Clapham Junction is shared by both Overground and Southern trains and even though the Southern services have been bolstered in terms of both length and frequency, when Overground services are cancelled to/from Clapham Jct. crowds do build up on the Shepherd’s Bush Eastbound and Willesden Jct. Westbound platforms which makes me think that cancellations on the Stratford - Clapham Junction route are not particularly welcome.
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Post by goldenarrow on Dec 28, 2018 9:59:35 GMT
snoggle , According to the GOBLIN rail user group, 232 made a test trip before Christmas and was scheduled do a few more in the coming days. Even if the unit is wrong a tweeter, had posted a photo of a reduced unit which has since been deleted.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 28, 2018 21:25:39 GMT
snoggle , According to the GOBLIN rail user group, 232 made a test trip before Christmas and was scheduled do a few more in the coming days. Even if the unit is wrong a tweeter, had posted a photo of a reduced unit which has since been deleted. OK, we've clearly been reading the same source. I knew the 378 had run on the WCML during the night but it was the reference to it having run on the GOBLIN that prompted my question. Having gone back and checked I've found the reference you're quoting. Sorry for the slightly "pointed" questioning - I was a bit too harsh. I'm still in a slight state of disbelief that TfL are going down this route of shortening class 378s. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Dec 28, 2018 23:08:07 GMT
snoggle , According to the GOBLIN rail user group, 232 made a test trip before Christmas and was scheduled do a few more in the coming days. Even if the unit is wrong a tweeter, had posted a photo of a reduced unit which has since been deleted. OK, we've clearly been reading the same source. I knew the 378 had run on the WCML during the night but it was the reference to it having run on the GOBLIN that prompted my question. Having gone back and checked I've found the reference you're quoting. Sorry for the slightly "pointed" questioning - I was a bit too harsh. I'm still in a slight state of disbelief that TfL are going down this route of shortening class 378s. , No need to apologise, your thoroughness is always appreciated, I was slightly hesitant on exact details as the GOBLIN user group had a response thread that gave great detail into these events but alas, a deleted account later and it's all vanished. To add to your second statement, given that the users of the GOBLIN were deprived of their service for a year only to add the insult of injury when it transpired further possessions were required to finish the job now followed on with the rolling stock saga patience must be wearing pretty thin. I can't see how the DC and North/South/East/West London lines could scrape away more than 3 or 4 units given the fairly pressing demand that the 710's were ironically supposed to alleviate on some of those very routes. I think it goes without saying that however event on from here go forward, they will have miffed off alot of people. |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 29, 2018 16:55:59 GMT
To add to your second statement, given that the users of the GOBLIN were deprived of their service for a year only to add the insult of injury when it transpired further possessions were required to finish the job now followed on with the rolling stock saga patience must be wearing pretty thin. I can't see how the DC and North/South/East/West London lines could scrape away more than 3 or 4 units given the fairly pressing demand that the 710's were ironically supposed to alleviate on some of those very routes. I think it goes without saying that however event on from here go forward, they will have miffed off alot of people. The GOBLIN is one of my local LO routes. I've only used it twice since all the engineering works etc started. The latest debacle is just another reason not to go anywhere near it. How regular users are coping with it I don't know especially at peak times. I can see both sides of the debate about what to do in the short term - one is clearly to try to "patch" the service as best they can with shortened EMUs even if that causes issues on other lines. The other is to revert to bus replacement on the GOBLIN unpopular though that would be. Makes me wonder what Bombardier have told TfL about the prospects for the 710s if TfL are now, late in the day, prepared to incur the expense and effort of creating a mini fleet of 4 car EMUs to try to keep some semblance of service on the GOBLIN running. TfL have held off for so long in trying to find a stand-in fleet that I can only assume the prospects for the 710s are not good. |
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Post by tramdan on Dec 30, 2018 2:25:26 GMT
A thread on another forum link has discussed London Overground 378 232 running around in 4 car formation apparently on test, photographed at Redhill yesterday. Discussion surrounding its possible use on the GOBLIN has occurred although one suspects much additional pilfering from the 378 fleet would stretch it rather thinly indeed. Does anyone know what the service requirement is for the 378 fleet and how many spares there are on a daily basis? <<rincew1nd: Thread title changed to reflect discussion>>
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Post by Chris M on Dec 30, 2018 11:18:40 GMT
There is some discussion of 378s on the Goblin in the Class 710 delivery / entry into service thread, starting with this post. Comments there indicate that cancellations on the North/West London Line would be required for more than one unit to be available for the Goblin. This would imply there are significantly fewer than 5 spare 378s, but nobody has posted the numbers. |
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Post by silenthunter on Dec 31, 2018 15:12:51 GMT
How hard is it to remove one of the carriages from a 378 anyway?
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 31, 2018 17:22:45 GMT
How hard is it to remove one of the carriages from a 378 anyway? Easy. The difficult thing is then getting the train to work properly, the onboard software has probably been tweaked since they were extended so will need some kind of update writing. There's also a question of where do you put the carriages that aren't being used (it's not like they can propel themselves around if they're in the way like a spare unit can) and also who is gonna pay for all the work? |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jan 9, 2019 15:11:48 GMT
A respectable journalist tweets: (Click/tap here if embedded tweet fails to display. |
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Post by superteacher on Jan 9, 2019 20:13:04 GMT
Only 11 months behind schedule then!
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Post by snoggle on Jan 11, 2019 0:36:13 GMT
From the GOBLIN User Group twitter account. On the assumption that this tweet is correct then oh dear! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2019 12:45:27 GMT
But the same trains were at that the same length just a few years ago?
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Post by snoggle on Jan 11, 2019 13:20:55 GMT
But the same trains were at that the same length just a few years ago? Surely two key issues - firstly that it was "years ago" and secondly that such trains have not worked on the GOBLIN. I think the wider issue here is that someone has (possibly) forgotten to talk to ASLEF and just "assumed". If, as comments elsewhere suggest (note that word), things are not exactly marvellous between ASLEF and Arriva Rail London (ARL) then it's perhaps no great wonder that there is little or no goodwill from the drivers. Given ARL and TfL are both in "cost reduction" mode the staff will be under pressure in a number of ways. There is also pressure on performance which has been slipping which will be costing ARL money. When you add in the general mess caused by the delays to the Class 710 programme then the drivers are probably fairly "fed up" with having training delayed and not knowing what's going on. They are also probably not happy at the prospect of eventually having to drive trains that are unlikely to be reliable when they go into service. That just means more pressure on performance and more flak from passengers. |
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Post by 35b on Jan 11, 2019 17:57:55 GMT
But the same trains were at that the same length just a few years ago? Surely two key issues - firstly that it was "years ago" and secondly that such trains have not worked on the GOBLIN. I think the wider issue here is that someone has (possibly) forgotten to talk to ASLEF and just "assumed". If, as comments elsewhere suggest (note that word), things are not exactly marvellous between ASLEF and Arriva Rail London (ARL) then it's perhaps no great wonder that there is little or no goodwill from the drivers. Given ARL and TfL are both in "cost reduction" mode the staff will be under pressure in a number of ways. There is also pressure on performance which has been slipping which will be costing ARL money. When you add in the general mess caused by the delays to the Class 710 programme then the drivers are probably fairly "fed up" with having training delayed and not knowing what's going on. They are also probably not happy at the prospect of eventually having to drive trains that are unlikely to be reliable when they go into service. That just means more pressure on performance and more flak from passengers. Are the GOBLIN drivers dedicated to the line, or do they share duties with the NLL? |
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Post by dazz285 on Jan 11, 2019 20:28:48 GMT
We share Gob duties between Willesden, Euston & Stratford. So some of our shifts are split between NLL & Gob.
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Post by 35b on Jan 11, 2019 21:47:11 GMT
We share Gob duties between Willesden, Euston & Stratford. So some of our shifts are split between NLL & Gob. Thanks |
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Post by superteacher on Jan 12, 2019 11:36:14 GMT
Mainline drivers routinely driver trains of different lengths, so why is this a big issue?
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Post by Chris M on Jan 12, 2019 13:12:02 GMT
Presumably because they do it regularly they are trained for it and used to it. Generally there is also significantly more leeway in terms headway, etc. to cover for the variability of braking characteristics, etc. Also anything can be a big issue when industrial relations are poor.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 12, 2019 13:47:09 GMT
Presumably because they do it regularly they are trained for it and used to it. Generally there is also significantly more leeway in terms headway, etc. to cover for the variability of braking characteristics, etc. Also anything can be a big issue when industrial relations are poor. Which I suspect is the main player in this situation. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jan 12, 2019 15:56:47 GMT
Presumably because they do it regularly they are trained for it and used to it. Generally there is also significantly more leeway in terms headway, etc. to cover for the variability of braking characteristics, etc. Also anything can be a big issue when industrial relations are poor. Which I suspect is the main player in this situation. ...alas and when failing to meet the legitimate needs of passengers to get from a to b is reduced to mere 'collateral damage'. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 12, 2019 17:57:47 GMT
Presumably because they do it regularly they are trained for it and used to it. Generally there is also significantly more leeway in terms headway, etc. to cover for the variability of braking characteristics, etc. Also anything can be a big issue when industrial relations are poor. Which I suspect is the main player in this situation. Well it takes "two to tango" or on a TfL concession three - TfL, the operator and their staff. TfL are in ultimate control here and if one thing is evident it is a lack of longer term thinking in respect of a fall back for the GOBLIN service. The situation is obviously complex and difficult but the lack of planning and engagement is evident in the lack of effective public communication until forced by immense political pressure to do so. That was a one off given the lack of any public comms since. If TfL are struggling with planning it is no great shock that the operator and its staff (and their reps) are also not as involved as they should be. To do this stuff (including industrial relations and training) properly takes time and we are rapidly running out of it. It can hardly be a shock that drivers would want training time for use of a "new" (to the route) rolling stock with a new (to the drivers) electrification set up on the GOBLIN and new platform lengths and stopping positions at many stations. All of this is predictable and would be needed for the 710s albeit wrapped in the wider familiarisation and training process for that stock. Someone would appear to have thought it wouldn't apply with the 378s "because they drive them already". |
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