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Post by d7666 on Aug 20, 2022 22:56:55 GMT
R stock was all motored cars. Yes. But I said all motored axles. Only 92TS and S are 100% motored axles of any production built, non-experimental stock. R stock was 1/2 axles in train motored; stock like 73 95 96 09 are greater proportion motered axles than R. |
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towerman
My status is now now widower
Posts: 2,970
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Post by towerman on Aug 20, 2022 23:05:07 GMT
Teach me to look closer.
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Post by jamesb on Aug 21, 2022 0:11:02 GMT
The general point was that transplanting motors which are more powerful into a train that is 30 years old could have unintended consequences, so I hope some testing takes place in a crush loaded train! Are the new motors more powerful though ? This is DC motors replaced by AC motors and all the associated power electronics gubbins. Does not automatically imply more powerful - the project might specify this. AC motors have different characteristics to DC motors and any planned point to point running time changes could simply be taking advantage of these differences, plus AC motor traisn require significantly less maintenance time so they can probably squeeze 2 or more complete trains for traffic out of the fleet (once the whole lot are done). I do not recall seeing any power or other performance values quoted for the new kit, not in this forum, nor anywhere else. I might have missed it if I did not get a search keyword right of course. Can you cite some authoritative actual performance values for 92TS in their upgraded form ? Good point - I don't know, and I don't have any actual performance values, aside from the anecdotal comments further up in the thread: A mate of mine who is a Test Train Op has confirmed the trains are faster and perform much better. I may have confused 'increased performance' with more powerful. 1.3m/s^2 maximum acceleration seems to be mentioned for 2009 and S stock, and if the current 92ts is also the same, perhaps the new AC motors (/software) won't change that. Having tried to read various past posts, I have seen it mentioned that anything greater than 1.3m/s^2 (? 1/8th 'g') is uncomfortable for passengers, given it isn't a fairground ride... so that might be another reason capping the maximum acceleration, whatever the motors are actually capable of. Given the age of the Central line trains compared to the later Victoria line/sub surface stock, it is actually quite impressive that they are already capable of 1.3m/s^2 acceleration! |
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Post by t697 on Aug 21, 2022 12:07:19 GMT
Not difficult to get 1.3m/s^2 acceleration if you motor every axle. Doesn't need anything that fancy and modern. And 92TS is modern enough to have been built with DC chopper drive so no problem with notching peaks needing even more wheel/rail adhesion.
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Post by xtmw on Aug 21, 2022 17:22:11 GMT
Didn't the Jubilee Line have some issues with cracking because the trains were going so fast? Will the new trains be prone to this
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Post by t697 on Aug 21, 2022 17:49:39 GMT
Outright speed wasn't a significant factor in the Jubilee trains' underframe cracks. Varying inter-car drawgear loads as individual motor cars went through current rail gaps was significant.
You mention 'new' trains but the Central line isn't getting new trains, just new traction equipment, specified to work pretty much as the originals but more reliable. Unsurprisingly the bids were for AC type traction motors and associated inverters.
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Post by stapler on Aug 23, 2022 15:43:21 GMT
The 92TS is also getting in-car displays and bays for wheelchairs; but I wonder if there'll be any prettification? The grab rails are mostly so pock-marked there's more metal than red plastic/paint.... And the 1990s armrests were soo flimsy, their average life was about a week....
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Post by coldplayfan18 on Aug 23, 2022 18:14:42 GMT
It will be good to see them when they are finally running. It keeps getting pushed back though  |
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Post by jamesb on Aug 23, 2022 21:12:06 GMT
I travelled on the W&C line recently and saw a wheelchair bay, which felt like a bit of a sneak preview of what might appear on the central line. The train also had a new cab security device fitted to the J door (appearing to be similiar to what has been discussed previously - districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/29860/cab-security?page=6) I wonder if this will also be fitted as part of the 92ts refurbishment? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 24, 2022 3:27:24 GMT
I wonder if this will also be fitted as part of the 92ts refurbishment? These are slowly rolling out across the network, as a separate project. |
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Post by d7666 on Aug 25, 2022 16:28:16 GMT
Re. 92TS AC motor performance, I been making enquiries but no-one I know has an answer. Yet. All that has been found was a 9 character Bombardier model number for one, whch is completely meaningless in isolation, and failed to yield any search results at all inputting either the complete 9 character string or parts of it. While the trainspotter elements love the ABC spotting books to tell you something has a ABC123XYZ Mk.IVb item, this is almost completely useless info without knowing what is behind it all.
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Post by jamesb on Aug 25, 2022 20:24:51 GMT
I am way out of my depth here and have a very simple mind (confirmed by just answering about 1/3rd of the questions on an IQ test, probably incorrectly, as part of a job application!), but I have read that Bombardier have several families of traction motor products, and it is the MITRAC1000 family that is used on the "SSL and VLU" (I presume VLU refers to the Victoria line). I found the overview product brochure for MITRAC1000 here. I found it quite interesting, but I am not sure if it adds much. Presumably, the 92S AC motors would be something along these lines? As a lay person, when I read about "improved performance" it initially made me think of the train accelerating more quickly, or the train travelling faster. But having read a bit more about it, "improved performance" can refer to many things, some of them quite technical - like energy efficiency, reduced life cycle costs/maintenance etc.? Improved reliability we will (hopefully) notice - in terms of less cancelled trains/less broken-down trains. I get the impression that the actual speed and acceleration of the modern London Underground train (?1992ts onwards) is influenced by a whole range of factors above and beyond the technology on the train itself, and is probably already at the upper limits of what is feasible – given the power supply, track, limited space/safety, and comfort of the passengers etc.? Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread. |
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Post by d7666 on Aug 25, 2022 21:29:39 GMT
Generically yes.
But MITRAC covers a multitude of sins. Whether the motor is from the standard range and customised or a bespoke job then badged I have no idea (yet).
Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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Post by stapler on Aug 26, 2022 7:02:34 GMT
Passenger comfort, both on the original 92TS, and (doubtless) the remotored adaptations - seems to be of very little moment, hard, unsprung, seats, poor ventilation, flimsy armrests, jolting, and unyielding grab points....
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Post by networkersoutheast on Sept 8, 2022 18:43:27 GMT
Yep, unfortunately...
Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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Post by coldplayfan18 on Sept 8, 2022 21:23:46 GMT
Hopefully that will be significantly improved when the refurbed trains are put into service in about 1000 years.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 9, 2022 8:54:09 GMT
8-car CLIP train 1 containing 91111+ has today made a brief appearance on Acton Town 25 siding beside the station as part of the ongoing commissioning.
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Post by coldplayfan18 on Sept 9, 2022 9:54:54 GMT
Has this train been fitted with all the new internal features, or only the AC motors?
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Post by xtmw on Sept 18, 2022 18:26:58 GMT
Any updates on this area?
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Post by goldenarrow on Sept 24, 2022 22:35:39 GMT
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Post by coldplayfan18 on Oct 6, 2022 11:40:21 GMT
I recently asked for a FOI request about the progress of the programme and I got this response today:
In terms of progress, installation and testing of the first train into service is expected to be concluded in Q3 of 2022/23. In terms of refurbished trains entering the network, we are expecting to undertake testing with our first train in Q4 of 2022/23, with the first train entering service in the spring of 2023. The current completion date for the programme is in 2027.
So it’s still a few months before the first train enters service. Hopefully it won’t end up being later than that.
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Post by xtmw on Oct 6, 2022 12:22:49 GMT
2027(!)
Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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Post by coldplayfan18 on Oct 6, 2022 13:12:44 GMT
Why is it taking so long anyway? The refurb on the other trains didn’t take as long as this.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 6, 2022 15:46:00 GMT
Why is it taking so long anyway? The refurb on the other trains didn’t take as long as this. The first D Stock to be the trial refurbishment was removed from service in March 1999, the last un-refurbished D Stock was withdrawn for conversion in February 2008, these didn't require new motors as the 1992 Stock are receiving, or get delayed by a pandemic. |
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Post by t697 on Oct 7, 2022 16:00:16 GMT
An interesting comparison. But for those who don't know, the D stock trial refurb was a single car and end windows in the adjacent cars. The trial design had almost nothing in common with the production refurb. The intervening factor here was the PPP. The trail stops with the single trial unit and starts again in April 2003 at Metronet SSL's official start, when Bombardier also started the design work for the much simpler production refurb, from the specification they'd also written as part of the Metronet bid proposals. The first one was completed a bit over 2 years later in mid 2005 and the last as mentioned in 2008. A MUCH simpler work package than the current 92TS projects in all.
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Post by jimbo on Oct 14, 2022 3:06:53 GMT
Central line Improvement Programme - from papers for TfL Programmes and Investment Committee meeting on 19 October 2022
First train into service 26/02/23 On target
All design signed off enabling start of full production phase 29/11/22 Ahead of target
First train ready for service introduction 31/03/23 On target
The difference between points 1 and 3 escapes me! Perhaps the first is available to depot for training? The last, into passenger service?
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Post by quario on Oct 18, 2022 18:16:31 GMT
Huh. We'll have to wait and see for this meeting.
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Post by d7666 on Oct 20, 2022 16:15:20 GMT
First train into service 26/02/23 First train ready for service introduction 31/03/23 The difference between points escapes me! Perhaps the first is available to depot for training? The last, into passenger service? With new S stock, didn't they run them in public service first on special trips ? Perhaps the same is meant - special trips 26/02/23 and timetable service 31/02/23 ? Just a guess. |
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Post by brigham on Oct 21, 2022 7:24:01 GMT
The difference is that you have hit two targets, not just one.
Corporate-speak is full of it.
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 21, 2022 14:00:03 GMT
With new S stock, didn't they run them in public service first on special trips ? Perhaps the same is meant - special trips 26/02/23 and timetable service 31/02/23 ? Just a guess. I travelled on the special service - Wembley Park - fast - Harrow OTH - all stations - Watford. Weekdays Off-peak Also, District line Olympia - Barking bay platform. Return journeys included a short section of, jointed rails in the Barking area with ye olde traditional 'clickety-clack' sounds from the track. Although filmed on a Hammersmith & City line train you can here this sound here (part of a much longer YouTube video): |
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