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Post by ted672 on Mar 28, 2024 11:51:37 GMT
This saga, allowing for Covid, seems typical of how LU has muddled through over recent decades. A fully financed, total infrastructure and rolling stock upgrade is what's needed, but as long as the system remains under political control, that'll never happen. It's frustrating as an observer, it must be horrendous for those trying to keep things running.
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Post by A60stock on Mar 28, 2024 12:14:36 GMT
Are we saying that we will have trains which are non DDA compliant right until 2029? Or will the interiors be done in the short run with just the re tractioning work taking much longer?
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Post by superteacher on Mar 28, 2024 12:19:12 GMT
Considering the train has been stripped and you're trying to put modern equipment into a train from the 90s you're bound to run into problems. For example the traction problems and most recent radio problems. There was a memo around to staff a few weeks ago saying CLIP production had been suspended! But I believe number 2 is just delayed from August to December which is expected. Most likely the CLIP team have run into some problems on their end or as you said it could be financial problems. But fingers crossed number 1 gets its faults ironed out ready for 'proper' passenger service. Right now it's just operating once a day between Ruislip Gardens and Grange Hill. Yesterday it did the trip to Hainault depot and then back down to Ruislip depot! I think I'm right in saying that this is the most extensive refurb / rebuild of any underground stock to date. Perhaps it will be like "Trigger's Broom" from Only Fools and Horses! |
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Post by xtmw on Mar 28, 2024 12:48:29 GMT
Yes, it is the most extensive refurb. The D stock was one of the most notable refurbs (PIS systems, CCTV etc) but the 92 is the most extensive refurb on LU yet!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 28, 2024 12:55:40 GMT
Are we saying that we will have trains which are non DDA compliant right until 2029? Or will the interiors be done in the short run with just the re tractioning work taking much longer? All trains that go through CLIP will be to the finished standard, CCTV, DTS modification, LED lights, new AC motors, wheelchair spaces, PIS screens etc. |
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Post by A60stock on Mar 28, 2024 13:24:59 GMT
Are we saying that we will have trains which are non DDA compliant right until 2029? Or will the interiors be done in the short run with just the re tractioning work taking much longer? All trains that go through CLIP will be to the finished standard, CCTV, DTS modification, LED lights, new AC motors, wheelchair spaces, PIS screens etc. So I take that as a yes, as long as the interiors are not done, they will not be up to DDA requirements, which could be as late as 2029...... Remarkable how tfl have gotten away with the a deadline which originally came out in 2010 and was supposed to be completed by 2020. Have they got an exemption until 2029 now? |
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 28, 2024 13:47:10 GMT
The Rail Vehicle Accessibility (Non-Interoperable Rail System)(Central Line 92 Tube Stock) Exemption Order 2019, effective from 1 January 2020, runs until 1 January 2025 and will now inevitably have to be extended again. Whilst questions are rightly being asked of TfL, the Department for Transport is hardly just a bystander in this matter which in LU's wider context has been brewing in one form or another for over a decade.
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Post by A60stock on Mar 28, 2024 13:53:47 GMT
I would have thought a solution would have been to just get the interiors done rather than go head to head with the Dft
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Post by pgb on Mar 28, 2024 16:07:06 GMT
CLIP train #1 is in service running through the pipe but with technicians onboard due to radio problems. I/OPs are now driving them instead of test train operators. |
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 28, 2024 17:19:22 GMT
Posts relating to the current/future state of signalling on the Central line have been moved to dedicated thread in Signalling and Track here
Hat tip:gefw
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Post by miff on Mar 28, 2024 17:37:59 GMT
I would have thought a solution would have been to just get the interiors done rather than go head to head with the Dft There's no need to go 'head to head' with the DfT since it's DfT (Secretary of State for Transport) who issues the exemptions. Consultation on extending the exemption for '72 Stock is already in progress and I imagine the '92 will follow. |
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Post by taylor on Mar 28, 2024 18:08:28 GMT
Somewhere (on here?) I'd read that the (erstwhile defective) seat-dividers / arm-rests were to be reinstated on the next major refurb. Well that didn't happen; so it looks like the man-spreader-lobby may have had their way! Also did the gloriously large 92TS windows have to so reduced to fit in the info-displays? Looks like the trend to the Viennese 2024TS aka. 'revival-padded-cell' appearance is gaining traction. That's sad, as views of the above ground sections of the line, e.g. Roding Valley really benefited from the large windows. I'm also wondering if the interstice between the back of the info-panel and the remaining but obscured upper part of the window will in the future be properly cleaned. Time will tell.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 29, 2024 11:33:27 GMT
I can understand where you are coming from with the window sizes, especially on the 2024 tube stock but the large windows on the 1992 tube stock certainly contributed to overheating in summer so this feature may improve this issue slightly.
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Post by stapler on Mar 29, 2024 13:09:12 GMT
I can understand where you are coming from with the window sizes, especially on the 2024 tube stock but the large windows on the 1992 tube stock certainly contributed to overheating in summer so this feature may improve this issue slightly. The large, curved windows were an irresistible canvas for morons with diamond cutters. But I agree they were good for sightseeing.. |
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Post by Chris L on Mar 29, 2024 16:46:36 GMT
I can understand where you are coming from with the window sizes, especially on the 2024 tube stock but the large windows on the 1992 tube stock certainly contributed to overheating in summer so this feature may improve this issue slightly. The large, curved windows were an irresistible canvas for morons with diamond cutters. But I agree they were good for sightseeing.. Maybe the curve were a good idea in theory but you can't see through it because of the distortion. I think they also play a part in the way the body shells twist. |
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gefw
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Post by gefw on Mar 29, 2024 19:11:15 GMT
Considering the train has been stripped and you're trying to put modern equipment into a train from the 90s you're bound to run into problems. For example the traction problems and most recent radio problems. There was a memo around to staff a few weeks ago saying CLIP production had been suspended! But I believe number 2 is just delayed from August to December which is expected. Most likely the CLIP team have run into some problems on their end or as you said it could be financial problems. But fingers crossed number 1 gets its faults ironed out ready for 'proper' passenger service. Right now it's just operating once a day between Ruislip Gardens and Grange Hill. Yesterday it did the trip to Hainault depot and then back down to Ruislip depot! It is understandable that fitment of the replacement wiring into further trains is suspended (as the Radio equipment is likely to be an established product and it is probably an interface/power/earthing/EMC interference issue related to the wiring). Lets hope its high enough priority to get the right Engineering resource on the case (Modern screening/earthing/layout for EMC has moved on a lot since the 92 was designed with lots of earths and multiple power reference (0v) lines and uncertainty as to how to connect screens) |
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gefw
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Post by gefw on May 7, 2024 7:40:25 GMT
Can anyone confirm that the problems with the prototype train have been resolved ? (and overall progress on project delivery resumed)
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Post by xtmw on May 7, 2024 10:29:31 GMT
Still has technicians onboard
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gefw
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Post by gefw on May 8, 2024 10:50:31 GMT
Ok lets hope they are monitoring that the problem has been resolved - (else capturing detail of the scenario that causes it)
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Post by Alight on May 9, 2024 8:24:37 GMT
It all seems so problematic just to refurbish one train, and it's not even that much of a radical refurbishment! If anything it looks a bit dated with a moquette that looks like it is from the 1990s era of moquette styles, old-fashioned DMI technology, horrible cream panelling, and an inferior voice to Emma. Yes, I am being a bit harsh for dramatic effect, but I do worry about the spiraling cost and duration of this project versus bolting on a new order of 2024 stock trains...
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Post by Dstock7080 on May 9, 2024 9:32:20 GMT
It all seems so problematic just to refurbish one train, and it's not even that much of a radical refurbishment! Hopefully reading the earlier parts of this thread will show you that it’s not about the internal refurbishment but the mechanical items that are failing in need of replacement: motors, data transmission cabling etc. Internal stuff such as DMIs, LED lighting, seat moquette are being added while the opportunity is there. |
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Post by xtmw on May 9, 2024 10:25:12 GMT
old-fashioned DMI technology, horrible cream panelling, and an inferior voice to Emma. 1) There was a proposal for LCD technology however was deemed too expensive and there isn't enough power to provide for LCD displays 2) The cream panelling is there to mirror the existing panelling on the 92s. The train would look rather odd if some parts were cream, and other's arent 3) The voice is being changed to a woman as the existing announcements are temporary As DStock7080 said much of the refurbishment is mechanical, and there are changes in the drivers cab as well. The most noticeable changes to the average passenger would be the addition of wheelchair bays, the new onboard information displays, new moquette, CCTV and AC motors. The refurbishment is much more than that, it is also replacing life-expired components on the train. It is also worth noting that the CLIP train is still very much a test train. In addition to this, it won't be in service for the rest of the month due to maintenance works. |
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Post by jimbo on May 9, 2024 11:00:39 GMT
..... I do worry about the spiraling cost and duration of this project versus bolting on a new order of 2024 stock trains I'm sure there is general concern on this, but an extra order for new trains won't bring earlier relief to the line, as the Bakerloo has a greater need, and the Picc order won't be completed for a few more years. The modernised trains are expected to last another 15 years before new trains are needed. The budget for this is only £500m. New trains would cost six or more times that, and the current TfL budget is only funded to the end of the financial year. The chance of money for new trains is near zero! |
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Post by d7666 on May 9, 2024 16:09:10 GMT
It all seems so problematic just to refurbish one train, and it's not even that much of a radical refurbishment! If anything it looks a bit dated with a moquette that looks like it is from the 1990s era of moquette styles, old-fashioned DMI technology, horrible cream panelling, and an inferior voice to Emma. Yes, I am being a bit harsh for dramatic effect, but I do worry about the spiraling cost and duration of this project versus bolting on a new order of 2024 stock trains... Not radical ? Ripping out DC traction packs and replacing with VVVF packs ? Scrapping DC traction motors and replacing with AC motors ? And all that goes with that. Seat covers, and CIS voices and displays are trivia - ok those are passenger tangible, but it is the re-traction that will in theory keep them going for 15 years. That is where the expense is and that is where the delay is. I say theory, because I suspect it will be more like 20 years before retraction 92TS gets replaced, because the excel pushing bean counting mandarins will want their money's worth out of that and won't budge until that at least reaches it's 40 year half life (and to hell with how old the rest of the cars are). And. Putting new trains - your idea - you can't just put in new trains and that is it. With the 24TS you need heavily modified depots to lift them. Even if you do just one road in one depot with a complete train lift, that is well into 7 figures sums. Just to lift them. And so on. Like all fitting CLATP and testing. Where precisely are you suggesting all this money comes from ? |
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Post by miff on May 9, 2024 16:30:14 GMT
It all seems so problematic just to refurbish one train .. I believe the idea is do the snagging using the first train and get that one as right as possible (and proved so, in the testing) before completing any more. That way (hopefully) full production can then be ramped up with much less risk of any physical elements having to be re-done later. |
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Post by xtmw on May 9, 2024 17:36:21 GMT
Like all fitting CLATP and testing. CLATP = Central Line Automatic Train Protection ? |
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Post by d7666 on May 9, 2024 17:51:40 GMT
Like all fitting CLATP and testing. CLATP = Central Line Automatic Train Protection ? errrr yesss apologies unexplained 5LA.....  |
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Post by Alight on May 9, 2024 23:30:46 GMT
Thank you for the responses everyone. Admittedly, I was very much looking at it from a cursory passenger glance, but you're right in saying it is much more than what the passenger sees in plain sight. I suppose the previous sticking-plaster attempts (literally!) to help the '92 stock is still in my near memory. I just wish they could have done a proper job 10 years ago, but I appreciate there were financial difficulties and we are where we are.
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Post by spsmiler on May 10, 2024 9:51:54 GMT
oh and duct tape to weather proof leaky bodywork joints is cheap! (or has that issue now been resolved?) In theory the Elizabeth line and increased capacity on the Subsurface lines should reduce the strain on the Central line, so the trains can last longer. But, what is expected theoretically and what actually transpires in reality are not always the same! btw, in the old days it was not unusual for electric traction equipment that is in excellent condition to be retained with trains just being rebodied. Especially on the Southern Electric (I am unsure if it ever happened on UndergrounD trains). Just a thought. |
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Post by jetblast787 on May 10, 2024 11:24:34 GMT
In theory the Elizabeth line and increased capacity on the Subsurface lines should reduce the strain on the Central line, so the trains can last longer. But, what is expected theoretically and what actually transpires in reality are not always the same! Indeed. People have been saying this from before Crossrail finished construction, but they keep ignoring the fact that Lizzy doesn't serve the east end of the Central which is the busiest non-central London section.
I personally live in west London and have never had to use the east end of the central line (thankfully!) but even now I'm astonished how many passengers are waiting to go east on the central line platforms at Stratford |
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