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Post by cudsn15 on Feb 29, 2020 21:49:52 GMT
Well - let's wait and see how it all pans out. If they need to go to 8 for more of the day it can happen...but until the need is there without doubt it will be good to protect their assets. It's why I believe they run the Victoria line too intensely during the day - the whole line doesn't need a train every 90-120 seconds all the time. It's wearing everything out much more quickly.
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Post by nopixar on Feb 29, 2020 22:50:19 GMT
I rather agree with sps. IMO the 315s were always spartan and substandard, unlike the stock they replaced 40 years ago. I'm not happy to hear the 710s will be run as 4s much of the time. Like TFL Rail, IMO they should be run as 8s all the time. The peak shoulders lead to cramming on a 4. The same happens with 321s and 360s on GA. A 4 car 710 can hold nearly 800 passangers (allbeit in sardine fashion) which is approaching 8 car 317 territory for capicity. Also there are no plans to run as 4s at heavy times. For now its like for like for what is there already meaning capacity will have almost doubled when the full fleet is in. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 1, 2020 1:21:05 GMT
...and I don't think anyone except those who hark for a 2+1 seat for a maximum 39 minute journey would disagree with any of that. 800 folks on a 2x317 (of either flavour) is an extremely unpleasant experience. Whilst I understand the logic involved, it really is ridiculous that the 317s aren't going to be eradicated entirely before a start is made on withdrawing any more 315s - they are infinitely more suited to the route.
There are some off peak, 4-car journeys that seem to be a stretch for a single 315, and hopefully once the new fleet is in place it might be possible to double up more services during the day, as appropriate. However, as already mentioned, the 710s will by theirselves be a huge capacity uplift, even if it is standing over sitting for many. As I've said on this thread a few times, better a train that can be boarded that no train at all.
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Post by superteacher on Mar 1, 2020 9:53:40 GMT
...and I don't think anyone except those who hark for a 2+1 seat for a maximum 39 minute journey would disagree with any of that. 800 folks on a 2x317 (of either flavour) is an extremely unpleasant experience. Whilst I understand the logic involved, it really is ridiculous that the 317s aren't going to be eradicated entirely before a start is made on withdrawing any more 315s - they are infinitely more suited to the route. There are some off peak, 4-car journeys that seem to be a stretch for a single 315, and hopefully once the new fleet is in place it might be possible to double up more services during the day, as appropriate. However, as already mentioned, the 710s will by theirselves be a huge capacity uplift, even if it is standing over sitting for many. As I've said on this thread a few times, better a train that can be boarded that no train at all. A perfect example of the conflict between the desires of train enthusiasts and the needs of everyday passengers. With today’s demands, transport is now about being able to shift as many people as possible. |
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Post by silenthunter on Mar 1, 2020 10:33:28 GMT
That's always been the case. Look at the closed compartment Jazz sets for example.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 18:33:41 GMT
Any technical questions happy to answer.(Or try to find the answer) Also all 710 Chevron style stop car markers have been installed aswell as all baliase beacons on the tracks for the CSDE/SDO. Also chingford has a new train inspection walkway and Bombardier AVIS (automatic vehicle inspection system) structure completed. Do you know which stations will require SDO? Stoke Newington (northbound) so far |
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 1, 2020 23:28:31 GMT
Thanks Its a shame its a 317 thats going - not a 315. Not for the peak time regulars who have the unenviable task of finding a space to stand stable on those horribly unsuitable trains. These trains with their quirks from a past life somehow managed to feel stuffy with off-peak loadings and given that the Lea Valley is no backwater, many would argue the situation became unacceptable some time ago. Thats partly because you do not have enough rush hour trains! I was thumbing through my 1980 timetable book and noticed that some routes had trains at 10 minute intervals in the rush hours. |
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Post by jukes on Mar 2, 2020 16:58:13 GMT
Do you know which stations will require SDO? Stoke Newington (northbound) so far SDO spotted so far: Stoke Newington Northbound and new for 710s Southbound too. Hackney Downs Platform 4 Northbound. |
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Post by superteacher on Mar 2, 2020 19:01:17 GMT
Not for the peak time regulars who have the unenviable task of finding a space to stand stable on those horribly unsuitable trains. These trains with their quirks from a past life somehow managed to feel stuffy with off-peak loadings and given that the Lea Valley is no backwater, many would argue the situation became unacceptable some time ago. Thats partly because you do not have enough rush hour trains! I was thumbing through my 1980 timetable book and noticed that some routes had trains at 10 minute intervals in the rush hours. It is somewhat surprising that we don't seem willing or able to match frequencies achieved four decades ago. The same is true for what is now TFL Rail between Liverpool Street and Shenfield. |
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 2, 2020 23:35:53 GMT
Thats partly because you do not have enough rush hour trains! I was thumbing through my 1980 timetable book and noticed that some routes had trains at 10 minute intervals in the rush hours. It is somewhat surprising that we don't seem willing or able to match frequencies achieved four decades ago. The same is true for what is now TFL Rail between Liverpool Street and Shenfield. A few weeks ago a member of platform staff at Stratford platform 8 told me that the new timetable coming out at Christmas will see a restoration of train frequencies nearer to what they used to be. 'we shall see', as the expression goes. |
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Post by Dom K on Mar 2, 2020 23:36:37 GMT
Thats partly because you do not have enough rush hour trains! I was thumbing through my 1980 timetable book and noticed that some routes had trains at 10 minute intervals in the rush hours. It is somewhat surprising that we don't seem willing or able to match frequencies achieved four decades ago. The same is true for what is now TFL Rail between Liverpool Street and Shenfield. The main reason for the lack of available paths is down to the the big large airport in Essex, Stansted! This service wasn’t available in the 1980s! The only realistic way to increase capacity is to reduce the amount of hackney downs through services or have a siding at Seven Sisters (or somewhere after Seven Sisters. |
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Post by nopixar on Mar 3, 2020 7:19:59 GMT
It is somewhat surprising that we don't seem willing or able to match frequencies achieved four decades ago. The same is true for what is now TFL Rail between Liverpool Street and Shenfield. The main reason for the lack of available paths is down to the the big large airport in Essex, Stansted! This service wasn’t available in the 1980s! The only realistic way to increase capacity is to reduce the amount of hackney downs through services or have a siding at Seven Sisters (or somewhere after Seven Sisters. Exactly. The current WA timetable in its entirety is actually built around the Stansted service. If a LO service skips stations (Select Chingfords missing Bethnal Green in the peak for example) its because of its interaction with a pinchpoint. In this case to ensure xx03 Chingford dep from london is well clear of clapton junction so not to hold up the xx07 and xx11 GA services. Also keeps it ahead slightly so it doesn’t delay a London bound Airport service approaching clapton junction after the Chingford traverses it. Loads of these examples throughout the day accross the whole of WA not just on LO.... Its a subject thats been done to death here, on other forums, and even by Arriva themselves. WA is one region/timetable with LO simply operting a few of its services. To keep it on topic, this is exactly why full longtitudal seating was chosen on WA 710s as opposed to a mixture like on 345s. They have the pleasure of a 10 min headway on a self contained piece of track pretty much on the Electric lines to Shenfield. (That theme will continue into Crossrail core) They only have to deal with ECS into and from Ilford EMUD and a tiny portion of freight, as most use the mainline. At the neck of Liverpool street in the main they only have to interact with their own traffic into platforms 15-18. Could easily run a higher frequency with little consequence. The signalling between stratford/ilford is also modified with tiny sections designed for high capacity. On 710s longitudinal was the only realistic way to increase capacity as re-writting the whole of WA for a better frequency was not and will not be an option for many many years to come. |
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Post by ashlar on Mar 3, 2020 7:43:35 GMT
The main reason for the lack of available paths is down to the the big large airport in Essex, Stansted! This service wasn’t available in the 1980s! The only realistic way to increase capacity is to reduce the amount of hackney downs through services or have a siding at Seven Sisters (or somewhere after Seven Sisters. Exactly. The current WA timetable in its entirety is actually built around the Stansted service. If a LO service skips stations (Select Chingfords missing Bethnal Green in the peak for example) its because of its interaction with a pinchpoint. In this case to ensure xx03 Chingford dep from london is well clear of clapton junction so not to hold up the xx07 and xx11 GA services. Also keeps it ahead slightly so it doesn’t delay a London bound Airport service approaching clapton junction after the Chingford traverses it. Loads of these examples throughout the day accross the whole of WA not just on LO.... Its a subject thats been done to death here, on other forums, and even by Arriva themselves. WA is one region/timetable with LO simply operting a few of its services. To keep it on topic, this is exactly why full longtitudal seating was chosen on WA 710s as opposed to a mixture like on 345s. They have the pleasure of a 10 min headway on a self contained piece of track pretty much on the Electric lines to Shenfield. (That theme will continue into Crossrail core) They only have to deal with ECS into and from Ilford EMUD and a tiny portion of freight, as most use the mainline. At the neck of Liverpool street in the main they only have to interact with their own traffic into platforms 15-18. Could easily run a higher frequency with little consequence. The signalling between stratford/ilford is also modified with tiny sections designed for high capacity. On 710s longitudinal was the only realistic way to increase capacity as re-writting the whole of WA for a better frequency was not and will not be an option for many many years to come. Thanks Nopixar. That’s really interesting. I had often wondered about the reasoning for the timetable. |
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Post by stapler on Mar 3, 2020 8:25:55 GMT
<<The main reason for the lack of available paths is down to the the big large airport in Essex, Stansted! This service wasn’t available in the 1980s! The only realistic way to increase capacity is to reduce the amount of hackney downs through services or have a siding at Seven Sisters (or somewhere after Seven Sisters.
>>
So perhaps when none of us can fly anywhere, the Chingford (etc) service can be got back to decent frequency with decent stock!
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Post by ashlar on Mar 3, 2020 11:53:39 GMT
<<The main reason for the lack of available paths is down to the the big large airport in Essex, Stansted! This service wasn’t available in the 1980s! The only realistic way to increase capacity is to reduce the amount of hackney downs through services or have a siding at Seven Sisters (or somewhere after Seven Sisters. >> So perhaps when none of us can fly anywhere, the Chingford (etc) service can be got back to decent frequency with decent stock! It is regularly stated that Highams Park Level crossing is the main reason for the impossibility of more trains on the Chingford Line. Is that a red herring? |
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Post by nopixar on Mar 3, 2020 13:18:57 GMT
The 710 is out today again in service on WA. Same diagram as last week. This will be Mon-Fri permanantley, until more units are accepted. Tommorow it will start its circuit proper at 0555 Ching instead of 1122.
The expected rate of entry is 2 units per week, starting from 2 weeks today. Expected completion of full deployment is mid June.
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 3, 2020 13:22:46 GMT
<<The main reason for the lack of available paths is down to the the big large airport in Essex, Stansted! This service wasn’t available in the 1980s! The only realistic way to increase capacity is to reduce the amount of hackney downs through services or have a siding at Seven Sisters (or somewhere after Seven Sisters. >> So perhaps when none of us can fly anywhere, the Chingford (etc) service can be got back to decent frequency with decent stock! It is regularly stated that Highams Park Level crossing is the main reason for the impossibility of more trains on the Chingford Line. Is that a red herring? I don't see why a level crossing in itself should be a limitation even with the denser road traffic we see in the London areas. Level crossings around Isleworth, Raynes Park, Motspur Park and Charlton all have higher frequencies over level crossings than the Ching Branch. The crossing at Hampden Park which is a fairly major road can get up to 16 tph IRRC. |
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Post by Chris M on Mar 3, 2020 14:50:59 GMT
A level crossing does not exist in isolation from the local road network. Highams Park crossing is surrounded by complex junctions that also see considerable movement of traffic not interacting with the railway, and it is the only crossing of the railway quite a stretch. Those in SW London are mostly more distant from road junctions and the traffic wishing to cross the railway is spread over multiple roads none too far away from the other. Charlton carries only a small proportion of the cross-railway traffic in the area. For this reason each closure of the Highams Park crossing affects much more traffic than does a closure of each of the other crossings, and more significantly affects traffic not wanting to cross the track.
I don't know if that is the (or a) reason that constrains the railway's capacity but it's certainly plausible.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 3, 2020 15:54:31 GMT
Road capacity is certainly an issue on the Waterloo - Windsor route, especially in the Egham area (four level crossings the only ways across in a two and a half mile stretch) and between Barnes and North Sheen (four level crossings and the ever-congested South Circular Road - just one lane in each direction here - in a two-and a half mile stretch). These have caused much local opposition to Airtrack and similar proposals for rail access to Heathrow from this line. The latter stretch has an off peak frequency of 8 tph each way, and because of the mixture of fast and stopping services, and the proximity of station platforms at North Sheen and Mortlake to the crossings, it is not uncommon for the barriers to be down for three trains to pass. Queues at North Sheen frequently stretch south and north all the way back to the Upper and Lower Richmond roads (The situation is even worse than usual at present, as the next bridge to the west is closed for gas main repairs).
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Post by ashlar on Mar 3, 2020 16:38:00 GMT
The 710 is out today again in service on WA. Same diagram as last week. This will be Mon-Fri permanantley, until more units are accepted. Tommorow it will start its circuit proper at 0555 Ching instead of 1122. The expected rate of entry is 2 units per week, starting from 2 weeks today. Expected completion of full deployment is mid June. TfL just emailed me (and presumably all other regular passengers on this line) to announce the new trains and confirm the June completion date. |
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Post by brooklynbound on Mar 3, 2020 17:15:04 GMT
The 710 is out today again in service on WA. Same diagram as last week. This will be Mon-Fri permanantley, until more units are accepted. Tommorow it will start its circuit proper at 0555 Ching instead of 1122. The expected rate of entry is 2 units per week, starting from 2 weeks today. Expected completion of full deployment is mid June. TfL just emailed me (and presumably all other regular passengers on this line) to announce the new trains and confirm the June completion date. And there's a press release complete with a quote about the arrival of electric trains despite the WA having had them for decades...
"Heidi Alexander, Deputy Mayor for Transport, said: 'I'm delighted that London Overground services into London Liverpool Street are now being served by electric trains."
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 3, 2020 18:14:32 GMT
And there's a press release complete with a quote about the arrival of electric trains despite the WA having had them for decades...
"Heidi Alexander, Deputy Mayor for Transport, said: 'I'm delighted that London Overground services into London Liverpool Street are now being served by electric trains." To be fair the quote from Heidi Alexander does say “arrival of new electric trains . . . “ |
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Post by brooklynbound on Mar 3, 2020 18:37:38 GMT
And there's a press release complete with a quote about the arrival of electric trains despite the WA having had them for decades...
"Heidi Alexander, Deputy Mayor for Transport, said: 'I'm delighted that London Overground services into London Liverpool Street are now being served by electric trains." To be fair the quote from Heidi Alexander does say “arrival of new electric trains . . . “ That's because they've corrected the press release since I and others clocked their dodgy quote.. This was on the tangytango bus forum several hours ago...
Class 710 Overground / TfL rail trains
2 hours ago
Quote
Post Options
Post by snowman on 2 hours ago
TfL Press Office have issued article regarding class 710 on Liverpool Street Services
tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2020/march/new-london-overground-trains-enter-service-on-routes-into-london-liverpool-street
Includes this classic quote by (clearly out of touch Heidi Alexander as line has used electric trains for 60 years)
Heidi Alexander, Deputy Mayor for Transport, said: 'I'm delighted that London Overground services into London Liverpool Street are now being served by electric trains.
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Post by Chris W on Mar 3, 2020 20:22:15 GMT
The first official Class 710 service (710 121 at the City end) left platform 7 of Liverpool Street at 12:03 today, bound for Chingford... with Heidi Alexander and others onboard, who alighted at Hackney Downs, who then returned to Liv Street, enjoying the juxtaposition luxury of a Class 315.  Announcements were made across the station tannoy as the introductory cl. 710 service arrived, pulling into the platform...
Includes this classic quote by (clearly out of touch Heidi Alexander as line has used electric trains for 60 years) Heidi Alexander, Deputy Mayor for Transport, said: 'I'm delighted that London Overground services into London Liverpool Street are now being served by electric trains.
She's not that out of touch... I had a very pleasant interview with her en-route to Hackney  , so I suspect that is was a prepared press 'quote'   |
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 3, 2020 20:45:22 GMT
First official service? What makes it the first official service? A load of dignitaries?
First public service was last week, as up thread. First service that wasn’t a one-off preview was the 1122 from Enfield Town this morning.
Dignitaries and press does not an official service make.
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Post by Chris W on Mar 3, 2020 20:49:11 GMT
I'm not disagreeing... I've seen your other images (i.e. platform 1 of Liverpool Street)... however it was meant to be a soft(ish) press launch |
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 3, 2020 20:52:06 GMT
A soft-ish press launch on the second trip of a full diagram is very different thing to first official trip, which was your initial comment.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 3, 2020 21:03:26 GMT
A soft-ish press launch on the second trip of a full diagram is very different thing to first official trip, which was your initial comment. Maybe it was just the first trip with officials.......  |
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 3, 2020 21:35:33 GMT
A soft-ish press launch on the second trip of a full diagram is very different thing to first official trip, which was your initial comment. Maybe it was just the first trip with officials....... Nope, that was last week...! |
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Post by stapler on Mar 3, 2020 22:11:31 GMT
<<The main reason for the lack of available paths is down to the the big large airport in Essex, Stansted! This service wasn’t available in the 1980s! The only realistic way to increase capacity is to reduce the amount of hackney downs through services or have a siding at Seven Sisters (or somewhere after Seven Sisters. >> So perhaps when none of us can fly anywhere, the Chingford (etc) service can be got back to decent frequency with decent stock! It is regularly stated that Highams Park Level crossing is the main reason for the impossibility of more trains on the Chingford Line. Is that a red herring? Definitely. In the 60s and 70s (wityh wheel turned gates at HP&HE AND a hand worked crossing at Chingford Hatch, a 10-min headway service was worked on Saturdays, plus in peaks. Some of these were of course also fast London to/from St James St,giving a journey time of 19 minutes |
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, so I suspect that is was a prepared press 'quote' 
