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Post by ashlar on Feb 11, 2020 22:43:36 GMT
The word I have heard (from a local councillor who heard it directly from TfL) is that the first Class 710 would enter service on this line in mid-February. We are now rapidly approaching mid-February...
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Post by jukes on Feb 11, 2020 23:01:37 GMT
Did he give a hint as to February of which year!!!? And, I saw 710119&120 on test this morning at Stoke Newington on their way to Enfileld Town. Nothing fell off or went clunk or crunch so looked good!
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Post by nopixar on Feb 12, 2020 16:36:09 GMT
Did he give a hint as to February of which year!!!? And, I saw 710119&120 on test this morning at Stoke Newington on their way to Enfileld Town. Nothing fell off or went clunk or crunch so looked good! The last week of February is still the plan. Everything is tied up with Coupling ASDO..PTI (platform train interface) checks The retirement of 315/317s and introduction of the 710s on WA hinged on those things being wrapped up which they are now. Roughly 1/3 drivers trained. More than enough for a soft launch. The introduction is now no longer dependent on software, but simply logistics. It’s just a case of all parties involved to figure out where they want it/diagramming, discussions with ROSCOs (Rolling stock leasing companies) on pulling the existing stock...and somebody pulling the trigger. So even if it’s not the last week of February won’t be very far from that. P.s these are training runs not testing  |
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Post by stapler on Feb 13, 2020 8:20:04 GMT
What is the plan with the displaced 315s? Straight off to scrap, diesel hauled? There wouldn't be room to store them at Chingford etc.
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Post by nopixar on Feb 13, 2020 11:27:51 GMT
To ilford, then scrap.
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Post by nopixar on Feb 14, 2020 0:22:18 GMT
Provisional date of 24th February. Subject to a few bits and pieces being agreed. Will replace an 317 8 car diagram and run most of the day so plenty of opportunities to catch it. Will wait until it’s been agreed off before posting times incase it changes.
The 317 will still remain as a spare initially.
Just note this is still a plan. Not a confirmation.
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Post by ashlar on Feb 14, 2020 14:50:50 GMT
Provisional date of 24th February. 🎉 🥳 🎉 |
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Post by d7666 on Feb 14, 2020 17:57:46 GMT
By coincidence, all this week on a course opposite Euston so 3 lunch breaks went 710 scratching on the DC between Euston and Queens Park.
Two things I noticed
(1) every unit seemed to ride very hard and harsh, but more, ride noise from the clunks from below the sole bar ...... Having been on many many 375 376 377 378 and 387 right from out of the box new that's a bit surprising; none of the Electrostars family ride porrly when new, although none are up to Siemens Desiro / City quality. Aventras I know have very different bogies, but nonetheless unexpectedly poor IMHO; I have yet to ride a 345.
(2) something always amuses nay annoys me is claims of how energy efficient things are - inside all the 710s I rode were adverts stations how energy efficient it is. 10 adverts per car in fact, 4 cars per train = 40 adverts. But. These adverts are on flat screen TV screens. I think they must be about 21 inch. A vague rule of thumb for power done of flat screens is 1 watt burnt for 1 inch of screen size. So, found figures, 20 watts by 40 screens is 800 watts per unit. Wasted. Telling us how energy efficient they are. Add to that the energy needed to lug the weight of 40 advertising screens around. It all takes energy. For the unit while life.
(Yes I know those screens in time have a function, but even then I'd argue overall less energy efficient than paper adverts when integrated over whole unit life.)
--
Nick
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Post by nopixar on Feb 14, 2020 20:27:45 GMT
By coincidence, all this week on a course opposite Euston so 3 lunch breaks went 710 scratching on the DC between Euston and Queens Park. Two things I noticed (1) every unit seemed to ride very hard and harsh, but more, ride noise from the clunks from below the sole bar ...... Having been on many many 375 376 377 378 and 387 right from out of the box new that's a bit surprising; none of the Electrostars family ride porrly when new, although none are up to Siemens Desiro / City quality. Aventras I know have very different bogies, but nonetheless unexpectedly poor IMHO; I have yet to ride a 345. (2) something always amuses nay annoys me is claims of how energy efficient things are - inside all the 710s I rode were adverts stations how energy efficient it is. 10 adverts per car in fact, 4 cars per train = 40 adverts. But. These adverts are on flat screen TV screens. I think they must be about 21 inch. A vague rule of thumb for power done of flat screens is 1 watt burnt for 1 inch of screen size. So, found figures, 20 watts by 40 screens is 800 watts per unit. Wasted. Telling us how energy efficient they are. Add to that the energy needed to lug the weight of 40 advertising screens around. It all takes energy. For the unit while life. (Yes I know those screens in time have a function, but even then I'd argue overall less energy efficient than paper adverts when integrated over whole unit life.) -- Nick The energy efficiency literacy is mainly in relation to what the unit does when sitting idle. After a period of time the unit begins to shutdown various systems (like the screens you speak of) lighting, HVAC, PIS screens etc to draw less current. After a period idle time a 710 will be in complete darkness. That along with regenerative braking means it’s still more efficient than anything it replaced. Agreed the ride is quite fidgety compared to many of the other units coming through at the moment. A lot of the 710s equipment is “wear in” so time will tell if that remains. |
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Post by Chris M on Feb 15, 2020 11:23:41 GMT
Regarding the energy efficiency of the screens for advertising. Yes, a screen takes more energy to display a single advert than does a paper one, but that's not the whole story. You need to also consider the energy and resources used to: - Make the paper
- Deliver it to the pinters
- Print the adverts
- Deliver the adverts to the depot
- Put the adverts up and take them down again
- Collect the adverts from the depot and deliver them to the recycling facility
- Recycle the paper
If the screens are going to be used for things other than advertising, then the construction and end of life costs of the screens are essentially zero from an advertising point of view. I haven't been able to find a figure for how long an average campaign lasts but the minimum time for at least some advertising on TfL is 2 weeks and one site described a "medium length" campaign as being 3 months (but this was talking in general not specifically on trains). If we assume that 3 months is the typical duration of adverts and that the train has a 40 year design life (apparently the standard for EMUs) then that's 40×4 = 160 sets of adverts, which is a lot of paper and associated resources. |
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Post by d7666 on Feb 15, 2020 13:16:34 GMT
OK I didn't write a thesis upthread, but yes I am aware of the energy costs of creating and destroying paper adverts. But has anyone ever seen any serious figures of this, compared to electronic displays, from an authoritative source. I never have. And I doubt they exist, simply because it they did, they would be cited. Ditto the heating effect on "Cooling The Tube" where not only is there the energy to power walkway side advert screens, but the energy to remove the heat generated from them. Ever seen any figures suggesting electronic adverts assist station cooling? Thought not! I suggest the reason on train and station electronic screens replace paper is one of human labour cost savings, with total disregard to life cycle energy saving. And this is not how you make things green.
I don't disagree with Chris' calculation in amount of paper processed, but you need the energy cost behind it.
And don't forget the weight of a paper adverts is two maybe three orders of magnitude less than a tv screen, and it's cabling, even if it is in a databus, and you are lugging around 40 of those per unit. Continuously.
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Post by d7666 on Feb 15, 2020 13:24:48 GMT
Anyway, back to 710s themselves, supporting a posting above Feb.24 i.e. Monday week is suggested both by informed source email to myself and as posted on another forum to be 710 revenue earning start date from Liverpool Street.
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 15, 2020 20:31:15 GMT
(2) something always amuses nay annoys me is claims of how energy efficient things are - inside all the 710s I rode were adverts stations how energy efficient it is. 10 adverts per car in fact, 4 cars per train = 40 adverts. But. These adverts are on flat screen TV screens. I think they must be about 21 inch. A vague rule of thumb for power done of flat screens is 1 watt burnt for 1 inch of screen size. So, found figures, 20 watts by 40 screens is 800 watts per unit. Wasted. Telling us how energy efficient they are. Add to that the energy needed to lug the weight of 40 advertising screens around. It all takes energy. For the unit while life. For the benefit of anyone who has not seen these displays, I am adding something that I've created for the 'London Overground' page on my 'railfanning London's Railways' website. Because of the ongoing changes to the rolling stock I'm completely rewriting the Overground page (this is still in progress) and have created montages of both electronic information displays. These are animated gif files which I hope all computers can see, although regrettably they may not scale well on mobile phones in portrait mode. I made them as separate animations because I think they will be easier to watch that way. Especially the animation which includes the environmental info has been sped up - in reality it cycles over several minutes.   |
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 16, 2020 0:45:23 GMT
Roundels should not be used for the date/time
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Post by nopixar on Feb 16, 2020 3:21:19 GMT
121/119 (The original West Anglia training units) have been brought up to scratch with the latest software to match 120/117 (currently being used on the WA training this week)
All four of these units support coupling and contain the full PIS headcode database for West Anglia in preperation for service. Another healthy sign.
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Post by ashlar on Feb 16, 2020 17:08:58 GMT
Roundels should not be used for the date/time Why not? I think it looks great. |
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 16, 2020 19:16:41 GMT
Roundels should not be used for the date/time Why not? I think it looks great. It is a corporate symbol which is registered as a trade mark. It is not a decorative item. Applying anything unauthorised to the bar could result in legal action. |
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Post by Chris M on Feb 16, 2020 20:59:35 GMT
The chance of TfL suing TfL is rather slim.
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Post by silenthunter on Feb 16, 2020 21:34:33 GMT
The chance of TfL suing TfL is rather slim. Overground is operated by Arriva Rail London, mind. |
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 17, 2020 4:01:13 GMT
The chance of TfL suing TfL is rather slim. It's not TfL's work just his mock up. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Feb 17, 2020 11:00:06 GMT
It is. The “mock up” is not a mock up. These are accurate photographs of the 710’s info screens that Simon has compiled together.
It’s a TfL design decision.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Feb 17, 2020 11:37:25 GMT
The chance of TfL suing TfL is rather slim. It's not TfL's work just his mock up. Simon said "I'm completely rewriting the Overground page (this is still in progress) and have created montages of both electronic information displays.". I don't see where he says he made them up. |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 17, 2020 21:14:24 GMT
Hello everyone, I would imagine that when the Roundel was first designed the people behind it had no concept of the bar being used on an electric display to host the display of time in a digital format. As for the legality of using the Roundel symbol in this way, its not my call to decide on the rights and wrongs but I would have expected that the information and imagery contained in the electronic displays would have been approved by someone from TfL. I could be wrong though... Anyway, re: the electronic displays, I feel that at the present time the displays with the Roundel plus information about the train are not being fully exploited, indeed based upon the present use I see them as being a waste of space - with the exception of the time of day paper posters would be equally proficient at disseminating that information. Maybe in the future we will see them used for 'infotainment' such as news headlines, weather forecast, dystopian big brother 'be good, be nice' social engineering messages, transport operator promotions, paid advertising etc. Such as I've seen on some buses outside of London and overseas. The displays which show the next station, a partial route map / journey progress map etc., are a different story. These perform a useful function and will (I very much hope) be fitted to the rest of the LO fleet (ie: Class 378) and S stock trains when they are refurbished. We've previously discussed the ghastly confusing & at times misleading situation on (especially) S7 S stock trains on another thread so I won't say any more here and now. As for the question of the origin of the information in my gif file montages, Jack is absolutely correct - I used photographs of what I saw inside the trains whilst travelling on them. Below is a screenshot of part of the folder on my computer for all images taken on 22nd July 2019. Actually, I took more photographs of both displays than you see below but once I had reviewed them for sharpness, colour cast, reflections of light from the bright sun, etc., I disposed of the majority of these images. Simon  |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 21, 2020 0:46:42 GMT
The 305s on Chenford were run as 3, 6, or 9 depending on traffic demands.The seating capacity was c850 , all but 60 of which was originally in smoking accommodation... Several stations got platform extensions in 1959 to accommodate the extra length of the units.That at St James St was of trestle construction and echoed greatly! As a regular user from the 60s until withdrawal I only remember 9 cars on the Liverpool Street to Shenfield section. A single unit was used for the Shenfield - Chelmsford shuttle that ran at one time. Getting back to topic I still think that they should have gone with the "Metropolitan" seating layout for the 710s. I remember 6 car trains during a strike (or work to rule) during which time there were insufficient trains for them to all be 9 cars long. The Fenchurch Street - Stratford shuttles were meant to be 3 car single unit trains - thats why platforms 4 and 7 at Stratford were so short. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Feb 21, 2020 12:59:20 GMT
I have removed some posts from this thread regarding entry into service and running times for the 710 trains on the West Anglia route. Whilst these are appearing on a few forums, I’d like to remind everyone that rule 7.1 covers such movements on this forum:
7.1 (Unusual Train Movements)
This forum does not actively encourage the posting of the timings for unusual train movements for the following reasons:
(7.1a) The information is usually available only within documents marked 'for internal use only'
(7.1b) The timings can never be guaranteed - in fact these sort of movements often don't happen at the times published, if at all
(7.1c) Making the details of such movements public could cause issues with unplanned overcrowding at stations or other locations
I would encourage members to post “after the fact” sightings and reports of the 710s (I intended to be on the first myself, gets me nicely towards work on time!), and likewise posts confirming in service running are also welcome.
Thank you.
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Post by nopixar on Feb 22, 2020 19:24:57 GMT
Similar issue again today - couldn’t board at the rear doors of a 710. Had to move to the next set of doors (as myself and other passengers had left those rear doors they then opened - not sure if it was delayed or if someone perhaps opened them from inside). If we are talking about issues with the rear door in a 710 I wonder if this is actually down to the selective door opening system? I think 710s have selective door opening systems to allow them to call at platforms which are either too short or at platforms where sections of the platform is considered to be too narrow to allow safe boarding. Where selective opening is due to operate there should however be in car messages alerting passengers where doors are not going to open and advising them to move along to doors which will open. The system is meant to be automatic with a balise on the track telling the train which doors to open. However if the train is not properly berthed alongside the stopping board the system can also block some or all additional doors from opening. These are however still new units and now they are in regular use faults are still coming to light occasionally. So if there is no obvious reason for the problem occuring - then perhaps the most valuable thing passengers can do is to send a twitter message to the Train Operating Company running the service explaining which door in which coach failed to open together with time and location information. That will allow maintenance staff to check and possibly resolve any issue with the unit or if appropriate get the trackside equipment overhauled. Got to the bottom of why this is happening. Basically the train checks itself against GPS loaction. If for some reason there is a dropout in signal the train cannot confirm its location and defaults to a failsafe ASDO scenario. The default ASDO scenario is 3 coaches open and the rest of the train locked regardless of train formation. Don’t think there will be any updates to fix this as it’s designed to be failsafe in the sense that it will lock out a rear coach even when it’s not supposed to. We’ll just have to hope for better GPS coverage. |
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Post by silenthunter on Feb 22, 2020 19:33:54 GMT
GPS is provided by satellites in orbit, so I am not sure how you can improve coverage.
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Post by nopixar on Feb 22, 2020 19:49:25 GMT
GPS is provided by satellites in orbit, so I am not sure how you can improve coverage. Signal boosters or additional balises. Similar issues on West Anglia at stansted due to it pretty much being in a hole. Was planned but never materialised due to cost. Biggest difference being on the Electostar family nothing would open at all and you would have to confirm the location from a list of stations as well as which coaches were to be released. Bit of a backward step in some regards on Aventras, but was a long process to get the doors open so perhaps they thought something open is better than nothing. |
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Post by ashlar on Feb 23, 2020 13:36:37 GMT
GPS reliability can be enhanced by other means such as an inbuilt accelerometer and local Wi-Fi transmitters. Your smart phone has this functionality so it isn’t rocket science.
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Post by nopixar on Feb 23, 2020 14:25:11 GMT
GPS reliability can be enhanced by other means such as an inbuilt accelerometer and local Wi-Fi transmitters. Your smart phone has this functionality so it isn’t rocket science. Exactly this, just too many parties unwilling to pay for it. It took the best part of a year for an additional repeater signal to materialise because of signal sighting due to 710s. Was a drawn out process too. |
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