Class 710 Delivery / Entry to Service

A great blog from ianvisits following press releases today:

www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/01/25/persistent-gremlins-means-free-travel-for-london-overgrounds-goblins/

A telling phrase at the end:

This has been confirmed in a TfL press release, which has been included in our topic dedicated to discussion of four car class 378s on the Goblin: districtdavesforum.co.uk/post/475209/thread.

Can we please remain on-topic for the class 710 trains in this thread, and discuss the shortened 378s in the thread above. A number of older posts relating to the shortened 378s have now been merged into the above linked thread also. Thanks.

I'm assuming that all the new units still need to accumulate their fault free miles before being handed over to Arriva Rail London. If so, is it permissible to couple units together given that the units will still run under their own power?

I can't believe they will run mileage accumulation coupled together. Surely the point is that each unit is driven *individually* and is proven to be fault free on its own?

AFIAK the accumulation testing has all been on AC overhead. I assume this is because of the urgency related to GOBLIN requirements and a decision that they can cope in the short term with trains leaving Willesden depot on AC and reversing north of Willesden Junction to reach the NLL and then travel on to Gospel Oak and beyond. The 172s run on DC rails to reverse at Willesden Junction station AIUI. At some point Bombardier will have to prove to ARL that the dual voltage 710s can actually run on both AC and DC and cope with changeovers both on the move (Mitre Bridge on WLL) and when stopped (Acton Central). Such DC testing is certainly needed for use on the Watford service. Furthermore there will have to be some level of additional testing to prove coupled operation is feasible as that's necessary for West Anglia operation.

I don't know the details of the mileage accumulation process but I assume that when the GOBLIN dual voltage 710s receive the go ahead for acceptance by ARL and driver training this may be a qualified acceptance in the short term given the lack of DC testing. I expect TfL have agreed this with Bombardier to shorten this phase of testing because of the GOBLIN woes. It may, though, come back to haunt them later if DC testing throws up more issues requiring software fixes.

Actually, a small fleet of 6 5-car 710s has been ordered for the NLL/WLL in order to free up a few more 378s for the ELL. The 710s are themselves unsuitable for the ELL due to the lack of end doors for evacuation.

Presumably, the bay road at Gospel Oak is the overriding factor preventing 5 car trains on the GOBLIN, given the location of the turnout into the bay, the bridge over Gordon House Road and the proximity of the junction between the NLL and GOBLIN at the other end? This is presumably still the case as when it was built in 1981, Gospel Oak mechanical SB still existed in the fork of the junction at the end of the bay, but as that burnt down in about 1985, the space it once took would in theory be available. Clearly, the best solution for maintenance would be one common fleet with the rest of the NLL/WLL/DC? The GOBLIN has always suffered to a greater or lesser extent, from a non-standard fleet with adjacent lines and this is sadly set to continue, albeit that the introduction of new maximum length electric trains is a significant improvement.

Actually you. The 387 fleets were all tested in multiple. You just shut the units around between test runs to ensure both cabs get time to work.

Hell the 387/1 were tested in 12 car formation.

However that does come with a huge risk. One fault and both trains mileage is reset so one fault causes twice the delay.

I've just had a quick scan on Realtimetrains for last week. There appear to have been some trips up and down the WCML over several days. Impossible to say which unit(s) were involved. Trips on the GOBLIN itself have all been cancelled over the last week. I haven't checked West Anglia to see if something has been running out there.

I've not seen anything positive being said anywhere. The usual "informed sources" on Twitter seem to be universally negative about the prospects for the trains. No one knows if a unit is close to achieving the fault free target or if trains have suffered failures and the mileage has been reset so the accumulation has had to start again. One source suggested it may be another four months before a train could be delivered. If that proves to be true it will almost be early Autumn before trains could run in passenger service given the lead time for driver training. I'd like to believe it won't be as late as this but I think I'm probably deluding myself. In the meantime the M-F service will be down to half hourly in around 4 weeks time. No one knows what will happen to the weekend service (except perhaps TfL and ARL but they'll not be saying anything until the last minute).

I think that if the service does collapse as expected then there will be a political backlash. Assembly Members are getting noticeably tetchy and those passengers who do comment on Twitter are very p****d off. That will get worse when half the service vanishes.

It's not just TfL and SBB having problems with new Bombardier kit...

SNCF has stopped accepting the Regio 2N rolling stock being delivered for Paris suburban services. It confirms that it has stopped making payments for the trains.

It is reported that 8 out of 32 sets have major problems, including doors failing to open or being locked shut due to ‘badly installed’ wiring. Serious problems are also reported with the pantographs, which are wearing rapidly – though Bombardier has blamed SNCF for this.

More at outremanche916347724.wordpress.com/2019/02/02/sncf-stops-accepting-new-bombardier-rolling-stock/

Is it time to go cap in hand to TSGN to see if they have any 377 2XX units going spare? Just a thought...

I thought all Class 377 were fitted with external CCTV.

Only the 2xx units were delivered as 4 car sets with pantographs. Wikipedia has several images of class 377 units including a Southern 2xx unit. Apart from the livery and the folding gangway fitted to the driving cars to allow multiple unit operation, they appear very similar to the 378s already in use on GOBLIN.

And who is effectively in charge of the TSGN "franchise"? Oh yes Mayor Khan's best friend - Mr Failing of Grayling. I think it's already clear that it will be a snowy day in hell before the DfT lift a finger to help the Mayor out of his difficulties with these 710s. I think it is the case that Minister Andrew Jones was recently "on the record" as rejecting any prospect of flexing the East Midlands Trains (EMT) and West Midlands Trains (WMT) franchise obligations that require the 172s to go to WMT to then release class 153s (I think) to EMT. His remark was rounded off by saying that the Overground is the Mayor's responsibility and it is for him to fix any problems. While that might look harsh what's the point of devolution if it's a one sided deal where any upside is down to devolution / the devolved authority whereas any problem is for someone else to fix? If you take on the responsibility it's for failings and problems as much as it is for success.

I actually don't think TfL want to go down the road of taking on trains from anyone else. It's far too late now. They're a year late in responding to what is about to become a crisis. It would also be a "seller's market" which means TfL would struggle to get an acceptable leasing cost out of anyone even if suitable trains were available. They'd be over a barrel and they simply don't have the financial flexibility to cope with it. They remain stuck with having to cope with whatever Bombardier throw at them or, more pertinently, *don't* throw at them.

We've done all the rolling stock technical issues to death in other threads / posts so I'm not going there.

Well yes. However the failure of various parties to get the trains into service causes a whole load of other questions about the standard of the service now and into the future.