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Post by tarq on Jul 4, 2020 20:55:23 GMT
Is the closure on the Eastern District this weekend related to 4LM? It seems to be shut every weekend at the moment.
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Post by goldenarrow on Jul 4, 2020 21:01:44 GMT
Is the closure on the Eastern District this weekend related to 4LM? It seems to be shut every weekend at the moment. It wouldn't be 4LM testing since it doesn't wholly cover any of the migration areas concerned. Crossrail works at Whitechapel have been the most frequent reason over the past few years given the notoriously tight clearances at that site.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 4, 2020 21:24:08 GMT
With the Covid-19 restrictions and delay, July won't be happening. I would unwrap your 2021 diary and have that ready for SMA 3. Make sure you write everything in pencil though. It helps if you have one of those with a built-in eraser.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 4, 2020 21:26:42 GMT
Is the closure on the Eastern District this weekend related to 4LM? It seems to be shut every weekend at the moment. It wouldn't be 4LM testing since it doesn't wholly cover any of the migration areas concerned. Crossrail works at Whitechapel have been the most frequent reason over the past few years given the notoriously tight clearances at that site. There's no 4LM testing taking place at the moment due to Covid - some of the staff involved are furloughed and there is a whole package of (previously unplanned) works to ensure social distancing during testing, such as providing additional monitoring equipment and partitions in cabs, which are needed before testing can restart. This weekend's closure, as goldenarrow correctly suggests, is due to Crossrail works.
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Post by jimbo on Jul 6, 2020 2:05:23 GMT
I presume whilst 4LM equipment remains in place, operational staff training is now over six months old and needs refreshing. This would include all District line drivers, and some would perhaps need their fourth training session since implementation has been progressively delayed. This will take some time to work through all staff. When training is restarted, there are probably many more urgent courses to be run before those for 4LM commissioning, e.g. currently practiced skills refreshers for expired certificates, and promotion courses to fill casual vacancies over the past four months. So a new SMA commissioning will be months away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 9:16:42 GMT
Its not just operational staff that requires a refresh
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Post by nig on Jul 6, 2020 13:13:54 GMT
With the Covid-19 restrictions and delay, July won't be happening. I would unwrap your 2021 diary and have that ready for SMA 3. Make sure you write everything in pencil though. It helps if you have one of those with a built-in eraser. From the rmt website Proposed 4LM migration dates SMA 3 Operational Proving – 9 th / 10th January 2021 SMA 3 – 6 th / 7th March 2021 SMA 4 – 8 th / 9 th May 2021 SMA 5 – 18th / 19th July 2021 SMA 6 – September 2021 SMA 7 – January 2022 SMA 8 – May 2022 SMA 9 – August 2022
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 16:22:50 GMT
Nothing planned past SMA7 its all been descoped SMA8 going onwards
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Post by underover on Jul 6, 2020 16:24:41 GMT
I presume whilst 4LM equipment remains in place, operational staff training is now over six months old and needs refreshing. This would include all District line drivers, and some would perhaps need their fourth training session since implementation has been progressively delayed. This will take some time to work through all staff. When training is restarted, there are probably many more urgent courses to be run before those for 4LM commissioning, e.g. currently practiced skills refreshers for expired certificates, and promotion courses to fill casual vacancies over the past four months. So a new SMA commissioning will be months away. I assume any drivers who currently drive though any CBTC area would not require training other than route related training (moves they may not have done in a while) and refresher on anything 'new' since their last training?
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 6, 2020 18:01:01 GMT
Make sure you write everything in pencil though. It helps if you have one of those with a built-in eraser. From the rmt website Proposed 4LM migration dates SMA 3 Operational Proving – 9 th / 10th January 2021 SMA 3 – 6 th / 7th March 2021 SMA 4 – 8 th / 9 th May 2021 SMA 5 – 18th / 19th July 2021 SMA 6 – September 2021 SMA 7 – January 2022 SMA 8 – May 2022 SMA 9 – August 2022 Awww they put the years on it. Bless.
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Post by upminster on Jul 6, 2020 21:03:37 GMT
I presume whilst 4LM equipment remains in place, operational staff training is now over six months old and needs refreshing. This would include all District line drivers, and some would perhaps need their fourth training session since implementation has been progressively delayed. This will take some time to work through all staff. When training is restarted, there are probably many more urgent courses to be run before those for 4LM commissioning, e.g. currently practiced skills refreshers for expired certificates, and promotion courses to fill casual vacancies over the past four months. So a new SMA commissioning will be months away. I assume any drivers who currently drive though any CBTC area would not require training other than route related training (moves they may not have done in a while) and refresher on anything 'new' since their last training? East End District drivers (except I/O’s) have never driven through any area.
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Post by scheduler on Jul 6, 2020 22:59:10 GMT
There's some newly installed point work that hasn't been used before to commission as part of SMA3 - namely the east end of middle platform road at Tower Hill, now has connection to both OR and IR, so trains will potentially be able to reverse west to east at Tower Hill. Obviously these points and paths over them become available as part of SMA3. They've now been in situ and unused for quite some time, so I'm sure that will add complication to bringing in SMA3, over and above updating train op's on driving in SMA areas and the added complication of social distancing making in-cab training difficult (a mild understatement).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 2:52:58 GMT
The points are still maintained every 6 weeks even though they are not used or powered under legacy signalling. There is issues with 9b and 10 but these will be addressed before SMA3 testing resumes as in there current state not even test trains will be able to run over them in the reverse positions
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 7, 2020 19:38:13 GMT
Make sure you write everything in pencil though. It helps if you have one of those with a built-in eraser. From the rmt website Proposed 4LM migration dates SMA 3 Operational Proving – 9 th / 10th January 2021 SMA 3 – 6 th / 7th March 2021 SMA 4 – 8 th / 9 th May 2021 SMA 5 – 18th / 19th July 2021 SMA 6 – September 2021 SMA 7 – January 2022 SMA 8 – May 2022 SMA 9 – August 2022 At least one of those dates has already moved - like I said, it helps if the pencil has an eraser on the end. Nothing planned past SMA7 its all been descoped SMA8 going onwards If so, nobody has told the project team or the contractor...
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Post by philthetube on Jul 10, 2020 14:46:14 GMT
Can anyone confirm for me what protection is to be provided for Chiltern services when ato reaches North of Harrow?
Thanks in anticipation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 16:09:41 GMT
Same as it is now with Trainstop protection
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Post by philthetube on Jul 10, 2020 16:47:01 GMT
Thanks, I picked up some wrong info somewhere, I was sure that they were moving to something solid state, I had heard that one of the advantages of the new system was reduced maintenance due to no moving parts to maintain, this must have only applied to the rest of SSR.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 17:12:04 GMT
Trainstops will only be provided on the Fast lines and will only be involved with the Chilterns. The signalling north of Harrow on the Hill will be known as Overlay where the fixed signals will control CBTC so the Mets can remain automatic
CBTC is less maintenance on the whole as there is not many “ wayside “ assets.
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Post by ijmad on Jul 10, 2020 21:53:28 GMT
It seems odd they're looking at different 'overlay' or 'underlay' solutions for the Met and the District. Wasn't Richmond to Gunnersbury going to be TPWS for Overground trains rather than using trainstops? Why can't they use the same solution for Chiltern?
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 11, 2020 1:56:54 GMT
I think it's linked to Ownership.
The Met is LUL track which Chiltern is allowed to run over, the District branches are NR owned/Signalled which the District is allowed to run over.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jul 11, 2020 20:48:12 GMT
Absolutely. London Overground stock is no longer fitted with tripcocks - both the Watford DC lines and North London Line sections which are used by LU and LO stock have TPWS fitted as well as trainstops. The trainstops are now requuired only for LU trains.
That said, it would have made sense to provide TPWS on the Met (the signal overlaps are individually calculated and therefore the usual constraint on TPWS being ineffective at stopping a train above 75mph is a moot point), plus the TPWS system is designed and supplied by Thales (albeit a different arm of Thales).
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Post by greatcentral on Jul 15, 2020 11:02:43 GMT
Thing is Chiltern currently use APT not TPWS. This is becoming a problem as the equipment is starting to wear out and no longer being supported by the manufacturer.
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Post by Tom on Jul 15, 2020 11:32:58 GMT
Is the Chiltern fleet not fitted with TPWS then?
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 15, 2020 11:36:57 GMT
Thing is Chiltern currently use APT not TPWS. This is becoming a problem as the equipment is starting to wear out and no longer being supported by the manufacturer. That only applies to LU metals, they have use TPWS when running on Network Rail lines.
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Post by Tom on Jul 15, 2020 11:48:27 GMT
I think greatcentral is referring to Chiltern ATP (SelCab) which was originally provided between Marylebone and Princes Risborough and now extended to Aynho Junction. Interestingly there is a current application from Chiltern for an exemption from Reg 3 of the Railway Safety Regulations 1999 (which require an ATP system) on the ORR Site.
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 15, 2020 12:11:26 GMT
Doh, yes I'm getting my ATP and Tripcocks mixed up.
And I have no idea Chiltern were operating an APT!
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Post by edgemaster on Jul 15, 2020 12:22:43 GMT
From the NR LNW(S) sectional appendix:
The Chiltern fleet will use TPWS in other areas, where provided.
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 19, 2020 19:21:24 GMT
I recall the Chiltern route getting ATP at around the same time as the new trains - a complete line modernisation project. This was early days of Network SouthEast, ATP was touted as the optimal way to make the lines safer and was expected to be introduced on other routes too.
Coming back to 'today', TPWS might make sense as it would then permit any equipped locomotive / train to use these tracks, including Chiltern's loco hauled push-pull trains. I think Mk3 passenger carriages are in gauge for this route as in days gone by BR HST's - which feature MK 3 carriages - were known to use this route, albeit very rarely. It would also mean that both LU and Chiltern would benefit from no longer having to maintain trainstop trains & lineside equipment and make this route more compatible with planned route enhancements connected with the Oxford - Cambridge reopening projects.
The only downsides are that without trainstops Heritage train operations might be impacted. That said, I thought that Sarah Siddens is equipped for TPWS. I am not sure but suspect that this signalling system can also be fitted to steam locomotives. Does the new-build replica named 'Tornado' have it?
As for the 1938 tube stock train, and service stock Track Recording train... well, erm, I assume that it could be fitted, if required, but finance is the issue!
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 19, 2020 19:35:05 GMT
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Post by DWS on Jul 24, 2020 13:41:09 GMT
I believe that 4LM signalling works are taking place at Baking this weekend, District Line shut between Tower Hill and Dagenham East.
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